The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Announcements and Obituaries > Haudh-en-Ndengin
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-27-2002, 01:24 PM   #1
Arwen Imladris
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Arwen Imladris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In a box with a fox
Posts: 1,347
Arwen Imladris has just left Hobbiton.
Sting Giants?

Where did the giants come from? What exactly were they? Where they like trolls, or were they like men, or were they like gods or something?
__________________
"Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."
Arwen Imladris is offline  
Old 07-27-2002, 05:17 PM   #2
Nevfeniel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mithlond
Posts: 783
Nevfeniel has just left Hobbiton.
Eye

Which giants?
__________________
Consider the purr a variety of audible tranquilizer. [. . .] For a few of us, there is one more purr, a secret purr. When we combine our secret purrs, we produce the Purr of Power. And that is simply the amplified amity we feel as furred and purred beings.
Nevfeniel is offline  
Old 07-27-2002, 05:23 PM   #3
Fingolfin of the Noldor
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: NH
Posts: 63
Fingolfin of the Noldor has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

'Giants' were mentioned a number of times in the Hobbit and I think once near the beginning of the Lord of the Rings. It does seem that there is very little to no information in their regard but I do believe, if memory serves, that they were in part based on 'giants' in Beowulf.
__________________
Sailhand of the Mariners' Guild
Fingolfin of the Noldor is offline  
Old 07-27-2002, 07:43 PM   #4
Sarin Elfarmour
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 43
Sarin Elfarmour has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Giants were trolls of some kind, the ones in the Hobbit lived in the Misty Mtns. and threw large rocks at Thorin & co.
__________________
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu
Sarin Elfarmour is offline  
Old 07-27-2002, 10:31 PM   #5
Elrian
Eldar Spirit of Truth
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE
Posts: 794
Elrian has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

It does not say in the Hobbit that the Giants were Trolls of some sort. In the Complete Guide to Middle Earth, stone-giants are described as
Quote:
creatures of great size and strength living in the high passes of the northern Misty Mountains The stone-giants are mentioned only in the Hobbit, and may be no more serious than Golfimbul
Golfimbul being the Orc whom Bandobras Took beheaded in the Battle of the Greenfields with a club and the game of golf invented,
__________________
*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will.
Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill.
That old whine ain't got no soul.
I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~*
Elrian is offline  
Old 08-07-2002, 11:30 PM   #6
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

The thing about Giants is that they don't belong. The Hobbit is only about half-way in Middle-earth, the other half was (you could say) made up by Bilbo. Giants aren't real. During The Hobbit Bilbo is just a silly hobbit, new to the wide world, and he wasn't taking notes on his journey. What he couldn't remember he made up, and what wasn't cool he made cool.
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline  
Old 08-08-2002, 08:29 AM   #7
Aldagrim Proudfoot
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Hobbiton
Posts: 328
Aldagrim Proudfoot has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

So if The Hobbit is Bilbo's personal memoirs, would that mean the chapter The Riddle Game isn't what really happened?
__________________
I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!
Aldagrim Proudfoot is offline  
Old 08-08-2002, 08:41 AM   #8
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,185
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

So it would. However we know that the version in The Hobbit is accurate from Gandalf's comments in FoTR, something which Tolkien explains in the appendices to LoTR. Bilbo edited his memoirs for accuracy.
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline  
Old 08-08-2002, 10:52 AM   #9
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Not exactly. You can consider The Hobbit to be generally accurate, if a bit off in the details. For example, I don't know if Bilbo would have been quite so bold in the face of a dragon, even if he did have the Ring to protect him.

What is cooler, a rock slide or Giants tossing rocks at you?
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline  
Old 08-08-2002, 10:58 AM   #10
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Sting

I don't think it would be too cool to have giants throwing rocks at me...
Mister Underhill is offline  
Old 08-08-2002, 11:16 AM   #11
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,846
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Aldagrim

Actually, Tolkien rewrote that chapter a while after the book was published. His explanation was that Bilbo had an account he put in his book and told all his friends that was more glamorous, but he was forced to tell the real story when the Red Book of Westmarch was authored.
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline  
Old 08-08-2002, 01:35 PM   #12
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,185
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

Quote:
I don't think it would be too cool to have giants throwing rocks at me
People who've been hit by big rocks tend to cool quite rapidly. Does that count?
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline  
Old 08-08-2002, 01:44 PM   #13
Rimbaud
The Perilous Poet
 
Rimbaud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Heart of the matter
Posts: 1,096
Rimbaud has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Underhill, I'm sure you are referring to the heat caused by the friction between the giants' hands and the aforementioned rocks at the point of release. You appear to neglect thought of the cooling effect of the air rushing past the rock surface in-flight, however.

Added to which, given that some of those 'rock-strikes' would be near-misses, a 'cooling' breeze may well spring up in your vicinity.

For goodness sake, man, think!
__________________
And all the rest is literature
Rimbaud is offline  
Old 08-08-2002, 03:33 PM   #14
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Sting

But of course you're thinking of the later Myths Transformed version of Middle-earth where Tolkien expressed his regret for not including a more realistic set of thermodynamic laws into his created world and toyed with rewriting the legendarium to reflect them.

Since his efforts never passed the embryonic stage, we can hardly consider them canon, now can we, hmm? Therefore, I stand by my "uncool" theory, in keeping with the Valinor-based system of thermodynamics which was in place when The Hobbit was penned.

I'd provide some quotes, but unfortunately I don't have my HoME handy at the moment...

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]
Mister Underhill is offline  
Old 08-08-2002, 03:44 PM   #15
Rimbaud
The Perilous Poet
 
Rimbaud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Heart of the matter
Posts: 1,096
Rimbaud has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Mister Underhill, oh equus straddling wordsmith of such withering countenance, I guide your attention to Fanor himself, at that time in Valinor when Finwe heaved a Silmaril at him in disgust.

Quote:
Dude, that was so cool.
More importantly, with reference to thermodynamics. The Hobbit was published in the 1930s, by which time the laws of physics, including those of friction, air resistance and the displacement effect of a foreign body, were much as we know them today. Tolkien, as an eminently bright man, would have known this and applied them thus.

Therefore I quibble with your post-Hobbit non-canonical status application with reference to twentieth century thermodynamics in the matter of giants throwing rocks in LoTR.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]
__________________
And all the rest is literature
Rimbaud is offline  
Old 08-08-2002, 04:01 PM   #16
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Boots

Ha! Your out-of-context quote does not reveal the characteristic sarcasm implicit in Fanor's mocking reply. Everyone knows those Silmarils were like super-heated potatoes.

Do you mean to imply that the Earth was widely considered flat when Tolkien wrote the early versions of the Silmarillion?

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]
Mister Underhill is offline  
Old 08-08-2002, 04:08 PM   #17
red
Spirit of Mischief
 
red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Land of the free and home of the brave
Posts: 368
red has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Underhill: 1
Stephanos: 0

Their next head to head competition will take place three days from now in a topic yet to be determined. Stay tuned!
__________________
"Cats are like greatness: Some people are born into cat-loving families, some achieve cats, and some have cats thrust upon them." -William H. A. Carr
red is offline  
Old 08-10-2002, 09:50 AM   #18
The Silver-shod Muse
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX
Posts: 388
The Silver-shod Muse has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
Many beings of giant size, both good and evil in nature, lived in Middle Earth. In the First Age of Stars there were the Ents, the Treeherds, who measured fourteen feet in height and were of immense strength and great wisdom. Later came Giants filled with evil; those named Trolls and Olog-hai served the Dark Power and made the wild lands of the World perilous for travellers.
A Guide to Tolkien
So it seems that "giants" refers to large beings in general, Ents and trolls primarily.

Quote:
Also, in the tales of Hobbits, there were rumours of great giants who, in league with Orcs, guarded the High Passes in Rhovanion.
Perhaps burrahobbit's landslide was the production of the malicious intent of certain trolls, who would have been giants to a man, and certainly so to a hobbit.

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]
__________________
"'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis
The Silver-shod Muse is offline  
Old 08-10-2002, 11:08 AM   #19
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Perhaps burrahobbit's landslide was the production of the malicious intent of certain trolls, who would have been giants to a man, and certainly so to a hobbit.
Except that Bilbo knew what trolls were.
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline  
Old 08-10-2002, 04:09 PM   #20
Dimaldaeon
Wight
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Ireland & damn proud of it.
Posts: 125
Dimaldaeon has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Dimaldaeon Send a message via AIM to Dimaldaeon
Sting

Someone once told me that the bit in the old Zelda games when you're walking along a clif and rocks come tumbling down, is the Gorons defending their mountains.
Sounds familiar, eh.
__________________
Dear Saddam, Do not disunderestimate me.Yours G.W.Bush

You're not drunk if you can still hold onto a blade of grass to stop yourself from falling off the face of the Earth
Dimaldaeon is offline  
Old 08-10-2002, 08:17 PM   #21
The Silver-shod Muse
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX
Posts: 388
The Silver-shod Muse has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
Except that Bilbo knew what trolls were.
Yes, but there are very many different kinds and sizes of trolls (i.e. cave, mountain, etc.) and if I remember correctly, the weather was very stormy and visibility was probably not favorable. I'm sure that if a large, indeterminate something were hurtling boulders at you in the middle of a raging storm, you might be inclined to feel that the situation is worse than it really is, if that is possible, hence Bilbo calling them "giants" instead of trolls.

Besides this, trolls were already used in Bilbo's little "story", and perhaps, as you said burrahobbit, "what wasn't cool he made cool."
__________________
"'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis
The Silver-shod Muse is offline  
Old 08-14-2002, 11:35 AM   #22
Rumil
Sage & Onions
 
Rumil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 887
Rumil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Pipe

On Giants,
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I'm pro-giant, after all, most of the time, whenever the fellowship visit a new place JRRT gives us a new society or creature to debate, so why not giants too?
Who knows what's lurking at the edges of the maps in Rhun and Khand, or even closer to home in Minhiriath for example?

In the Hobbit, Gandalf mentions the giants, commenting that one day he'd have to find a decent giant who would block up the goblin cave for him. Therefore, (if G was being serious), Giants aren't necessarily all bad, just a bit boisterous when there's a thunderstorm!
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion
Rumil is offline  
Old 09-22-2002, 11:38 PM   #23
Belin
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Belin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: all the wide unfriendly pathways of the world
Posts: 330
Belin has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via Yahoo to Belin
Silmaril

So how's this for a ridiculous theory...I have recently learned that one of the Old English words for giant is...get this... ent. Furthermore, I was wandering through the library, wandered past a copy of The Treason of Isengard, glanced into it, and immediately noticed a chapter entitled "Treebeard the Giant."

You don't suppose it was ents up there throwing rocks at them, do you? Maybe a couple half-crazed, disgruntledly wandering entwives who'd taken control of the mountain and whose postwar bitterness against all kelvar had led them to throw rocks at anything that moved??

All right, there are obviously more sensible explanations for this, but the entwife image doesn't really put me in a very sensible mood.... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

--Belin Ibaimendi
__________________
"I hate dignity," cried Scraps, kicking a pebble high in the air and then trying to catch it as it fell. "Half the fools and all the wise folks are dignified, and I'm neither the one nor the other." --L. Frank Baum
Belin is offline  
Old 09-23-2002, 02:43 AM   #24
Susan Delgado
The Perished Flame
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: behind my eyes
Posts: 1,096
Susan Delgado has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Susan Delgado Send a message via AIM to Susan Delgado
The Eye

That's great, Belin. I love it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Why couldn't it have been Thor up in the sky, hurling lightning bolts that only seemed like rocks falling?
__________________
"Man as a whole, Man pitted against the universe, have we seen him at all 'til we see that he is like a hero in a fairy tale?"
Susan Delgado is offline  
Old 09-23-2002, 06:18 PM   #25
Belin
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Belin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: all the wide unfriendly pathways of the world
Posts: 330
Belin has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via Yahoo to Belin
Silmaril

Okay, without having actually read the book I'm referring to, this feels like cheating, but...

I went back and looked at that page of the book again (It's "Treebeard Giant" incidentally and not "Treebeard the Giant") and there's a comment about Tolkien's distinction between trolls, stone-giants, and ents. So, I guess they're not ents (and here the entwife idea was so much fun, too!), but they belong to the same group, perhaps, like trolls, akin to them.. or at least, that's a skimmer's interpretation. So this is a drawn out and rather unnecessary way of saying that the Silver-shod Muse seems to have it about right.

--Belin Ibaimendi,
not really here.
__________________
"I hate dignity," cried Scraps, kicking a pebble high in the air and then trying to catch it as it fell. "Half the fools and all the wise folks are dignified, and I'm neither the one nor the other." --L. Frank Baum
Belin is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:19 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.