The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Announcements and Obituaries > Haudh-en-Ndengin
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-21-2002, 10:01 AM   #1
Frodo Baggins
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water
Posts: 606
Frodo Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
Sting Two Glorfindels?

I have not read that part yet, but it says that Glorfindel the elf was killed while fighting a Balrog. If this is true what about the Glorfindel in LOTR? Are there two of them??
__________________
"I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."
Frodo Baggins is offline  
Old 06-21-2002, 10:10 AM   #2
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 929
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Sting

Do a search.
obloquy is offline  
Old 06-21-2002, 10:16 AM   #3
Frodo Baggins
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water
Posts: 606
Frodo Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Oh your a real help Oblo [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] NOT!!!!
__________________
"I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."
Frodo Baggins is offline  
Old 06-21-2002, 10:26 AM   #4
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 929
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Sting

I'm serious. Try it.
obloquy is offline  
Old 06-21-2002, 01:40 PM   #5
The Fifth
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mordor
Posts: 427
The Fifth has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to The Fifth Send a message via AIM to The Fifth
Sting

No, Glorfindel was killed and reincarnated into another body, conviently named Glorfindel.
__________________
- Ringwraith #5,
Servant of the Eye
The Fifth is offline  
Old 06-21-2002, 03:49 PM   #6
Aldagrim Proudfoot
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Hobbiton
Posts: 328
Aldagrim Proudfoot has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Where's that?
__________________
I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!
Aldagrim Proudfoot is offline  
Old 06-21-2002, 03:59 PM   #7
lathspell
Regenerating Ringkeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Holland
Posts: 757
lathspell has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

the Silmarillion
__________________
'You?' cried Frodo.
'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'
lathspell is offline  
Old 06-27-2002, 12:58 PM   #8
Calencoire
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 89
Calencoire has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Calencoire
Silmaril

Well, I know that there was a Glorfindel in the First Age, who was killed, and one in the Third Age. I don't know if the first one was reincarnated or not. But there are some names that have been repeated, like Denethor, and Elf and a Man, Beren I've seen a few times... I can't think of any more right know.
__________________
*Where there is life, there is hope*
Calencoire is offline  
Old 06-27-2002, 01:40 PM   #9
Daniel Telcontar
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 713
Daniel Telcontar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

They are the same. Although humans often give their sons elvish names, that has already been used (like Denethor), elves never. There can only be one Glorfindel. The story says, that Tolkien forgot, and so he incented the story that Glorfindel was sent back to Middle-Earth by the Valar to fight Sauron and evil once again.
__________________
Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer
Daniel Telcontar is offline  
Old 08-23-2002, 08:48 AM   #10
Frodo Baggins
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water
Posts: 606
Frodo Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Oh I see. Sent back you say? I was curious because this elf that died before Elrond was even born ends up haning out in Imladris. Ummm... What purpose did he serve in Imladris anyway???? Any purpose at all??
__________________
"I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."
Frodo Baggins is offline  
Old 08-23-2002, 09:07 AM   #11
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
What purpose did he serve in Imladris anyway????
Oppposing the forces of evil.

By the way, you should probably trim your signature down a bit. It's kind of long.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline  
Old 08-23-2002, 09:17 AM   #12
Eol
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og
Posts: 306
Eol has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

As it was stated above, which seems to be more fesible, that Tolkien made a mistake and attempted to cover it up.

As for Glorfindel to be reincaranted, he must have been a pretty awsome warrior.
__________________
Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body
Eol is offline  
Old 08-23-2002, 04:01 PM   #13
Elsaur
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: ????????????/
Posts: 17
Elsaur has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Elsaur Send a message via AIM to Elsaur
Tolkien

there are two answers really.one is that glorfindel was reincarnated as elves have a tendency to do that;2 is that glofindel is a common nane as glofindel is the male version of goldie-locks and glorfinniel is the female. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
__________________
i can't take his money, i can't print my own money, i have to work for money.why don't i just die?
Elsaur is offline  
Old 08-23-2002, 05:27 PM   #14
Maédhros
The Kinslayer
 
Maédhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 658
Maédhros has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Maédhros
Sting

Look at this thread for more clarification:
Glorfindel
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."
Maédhros is offline  
Old 08-23-2002, 06:25 PM   #15
The Silver-shod Muse
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX
Posts: 388
The Silver-shod Muse has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
The story says, that Tolkien forgot, and so he incented the story that Glorfindel was sent back to Middle-Earth by the Valar to fight Sauron and evil once again.
I take it that Tolkien's way of covering for this little wrinkle was probably the easiest, but it has certainly caused no small amount of confusion. The idea of reincarnation just seems to clash with the general feel of Middle Earth. Surely there were other already living elves that could've taken up Glorfindel's role with success, as well as other equally righteous elves that would've been worthy of a reincarnation and could've done much good in the War of the Ring. I suppose all's well that ends well in this case.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]
__________________
"'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis
The Silver-shod Muse is offline  
Old 08-23-2002, 06:51 PM   #16
Eol
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og
Posts: 306
Eol has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

It just seems that over all in Tolkien's work that he had a LOT of nifty ideas, but could not make up what he wanted to use.
__________________
Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body
Eol is offline  
Old 08-26-2002, 04:47 PM   #17
VanimaEdhel
Etheral Enchantress
 
VanimaEdhel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wellesley College!
Posts: 1,473
VanimaEdhel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to VanimaEdhel Send a message via MSN to VanimaEdhel
Silmaril

Well: if we remember correctly (well: if I remember correctly, that is), weren't there two different Elves named Legolas as well? Could that have been a reincarnation, or maybe just another common name (Greenleaf had to be a common Elf name). As for Glorfindel, I always thought that it was the reincarnation, because, as someone once phrased it to me:

Quote:
When Elves died, they frequently got plopped back down on Middle Earth in different bodies, for they could not pass through the halls of Mandos, but were forced to wait.
That is roughly true what I have since then read from Tolkien (I'd already read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings...since then, I've read The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and Lost Tales 1).

So: in conclusion: we don't really know who was a reincarnation with the same name or was just a coincidence, unless Tolkien specified. And: did it mention Glorfindel being reincarnated in The Sil? If so: gotta reread it again: already forgetting a lot of it.
__________________
"I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes
VanimaEdhel is offline  
Old 08-27-2002, 01:16 AM   #18
Necromancer of Mirkwood
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Pipe

I beleive that there is an essay in The Histories of Middle Earth Volume 12: The Peoples of Middle-Earth that deals specifically with Glorifindel and how I and II are the same Elf.

Glorifindel came back to ME sometime after the One Ring was forged in the 2nd Age and aided Gil-Galad in the War of Sauron and the Elves.

I also beleive that in one of the Letters of JRR Tolkien, towards the latter part of his life, the good Professor postulated that both Alatar and Pallando (the Blue-Wizards) came back with Glorifindel and that they in fact did not fail in their mission. In doing what they did, the Easterlings and Southrons resisted the power of Sauron more than if they hadnt come to Middle-Earth.
 
Old 09-09-2002, 01:03 AM   #19
Tirned Tinnu
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Patchogue NY
Posts: 158
Tirned Tinnu has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Yes! Necromancer, I confirm that. I have read Tolkien's statement on it.
Here's one:
Quote:
Very notable is "Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin". Years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, my father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel, and at that time he wrote: "[The use of Glorfindel] in LotR is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as the Silm, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings." He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city (II. 192-4, IV.145), and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age.
And this, posted by Cian, on another site:
Quote:
From 'Last Writings' in POME.
After the death of Glorfindel in the Silmarillion:

'He then became a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in
the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace
of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor with the Eldar who
had not rebelled, and in companionship with the Maiar.'

Tolkien then goes on to say that Glorfindel's spiritual power was
greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice in the Gondolin retreat, and is
'best supposed' to have returned during the SA, before the shadow fell
on Numenor, probably for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and
Elrond.
Cian
Pretty good stuff. I long ago made up my mind that both were one and the same. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'
Tirned Tinnu is offline  
Old 09-09-2002, 11:55 AM   #20
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,129
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Sting

Quote:
The idea of reincarnation just seems to clash with the general feel of Middle Earth.
Well, Elvish reincarnation is very much a part of the Middle-earth mythology/theology, particularly the philisophically consistent version worked out in the 1950s. It is talked about at length in HoMe X, Morgoth's Ring. That Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were the same person is pretty clearly established in HoMe XII, which Tirned Tinnu has just quoted.
Aiwendil is offline  
Old 09-10-2002, 12:15 PM   #21
Orald
Shadow of Malice
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: right behind you
Posts: 843
Orald has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Orald Send a message via Yahoo to Orald
Sting

Anyone ever notice the two Rúmil's? I didn't think this deserved an entire thread since there isn't much on either person.

Anyway there is a Rúmil in Lothlorien(Haldir's brother) and there is the Rúmil in Valinor, the guy that made up the writing system. Is there anyway that this could make sense? I am pretty sure Rúmil in Valinor didn't die and come back to life in Middle-Earth. Your thoughts?
Orald is offline  
Old 09-10-2002, 12:31 PM   #22
Tirned Tinnu
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Patchogue NY
Posts: 158
Tirned Tinnu has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Oh but there is more! There were even Elves named after men, if I remember rightly. I don't worry about it. I just let the names flow...
__________________
'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'
Tirned Tinnu is offline  
Old 09-10-2002, 05:41 PM   #23
Orald
Shadow of Malice
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: right behind you
Posts: 843
Orald has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Orald Send a message via Yahoo to Orald
Sting

You mean Haldir? I don't really mind that very much, I don't really care about the two Rumil's either, I just think it is strange that Tolkien would still use the names after he published the LotR. I would think that he would have made the necessary changes.
Orald is offline  
Old 09-11-2002, 08:12 AM   #24
Frodo Baggins
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water
Posts: 606
Frodo Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Not to mention that there was an Elf named Denethor and there is Denethor the Steward of Gondor, father of Boromir and Faramir
__________________
"I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."
Frodo Baggins is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:38 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.