If elves had gone on the quest instead of Merry and Pippin - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Evenstar1069 · 02-06-2003, 06:12 PM

I looked for a topic like this but I couldn't find one so I hope I'm not repeating anything.

Before the nine companions actually started their quest Elrond was considering sending some elves from his house instead of Merry and Pippin. I was wondering what everyone thinks would have happened differently? Would they have gone to Moria? Would they lose Gandalf? Would they stay so long in Lorien? Would Frodo have had the chance to leave with Sam for Mordor alone? Would they have managed to complete the quest? I'm curious about your thoughts.

02-06-2003, 06:28 PM

hmm, now there's a thought... no idea about whether Frodo and Sam would have been able to go to Mordor alone (although i suspect they still would have got away). The main change i can think off, is that without merry and Pippin becoming Rider of Rohan/Soldier of Gondor, the shire may not have been saved at the end. Since it is those two who organise the defences....

Rumil · 02-06-2003, 07:25 PM

Yeah that's an interesting one...

Crossing the Misty Mountains - they probably still don't make it

Decision to go through Moria - the elves would likely be opposed to Moria as Legolas was, Gandalf has more serious opposition, but then the wolves appear..

Moria - the orcs aren't alarmed as early (no Pippin), this could have v. big consequences! If the Balrog misses his appointment at the bridge, Gandalf escapes, but doesn't become 'the white' - scary!

Emyn Muil - the company takes more casualties because the Uruk Hai won't leave without capturing halflings.

From there on its v. unpredictable, what would Aragorn or Gandalf decide, follow Frodo and Sam or head to Minas Tirith or Rohan?

Other problems = Rohan defeated perhaps - would Gandalf etc. go to Edoras, would the Ents be roused ??? No riders at the Pelennor Fields, Gondor and Rohan laid waste. Merry doesn't kill witchking, Pippin fails to save Faramir, the scouring of the shire changes.

As they say, for the want of a nail....

Gorwingel · 02-06-2003, 07:47 PM

If they were anything like Legolas, we would probably have more hair tangles and broken nails [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
But on to the actual question
That is very confusing, it would be very intersted about what would happen. Though I do think they would still go into Moria because that was ultimately Frodo's choice, because not even Gandalf wanted to go there, and then all the other things I don't know.

**The Saucepan Man** · 02-06-2003, 07:49 PM

It would have been different. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Aduyuldaiel-MirkwoodPrincess · 02-06-2003, 08:32 PM

Hmm. that is an interesting question. I never thought about it. It would have gone all wrong. But I would have rather had elves than dwarves... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Evenstar1069 · 02-06-2003, 09:17 PM

Wow I never really thought about the impact Merry and Pippin not being there would have, I just thought about the changes the elves being there instead would make. One thing I'm sure of is it would have been duller and more quick paced seeing how the elves seem to be alot more serious than hobbits. And poor Merry and Pippin probably would have ended up in lockholes.

Deathwail · 02-07-2003, 02:25 AM

Matter who the Elves are,you send two more common elves like Legolas it would of been for the worse like others have said in this post.BUT if you sent lets say Fingolfin and Ecthelion (remember these guys have been reborn like Glorfindel)then Sauron would be in some hot water even if he gets his ring. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Jurion · 02-07-2003, 08:53 AM

Whoa, Fingolfin in the Third Age, that guy challenged the Dark Lord Morgoth and wounded him several times, he would have given Sauron a run for his money if he really wanted to.

But then again, even with two other Elves, even powerfull ones like Fingolfin, the Quest would have probably failed because of the various things Merry and Pippin did not happening as described in an above post.

the witch king · 02-07-2003, 09:49 AM

If Glorfindel was with them, and that bad old balrog turnd up he would have showen him a thing or two just like at the fall of gondorlin(sp?)

propagandalf · 02-07-2003, 07:46 PM

i think it was the combination of hobbits-elves-wizard and men that made the quest.. ermmm... (SPOILERS AHEADDDDDDDDDDD) successful [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img].

[ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: propagandalf ]

Kalimac · 02-07-2003, 09:59 PM

Rumil - good points, all. The only one I can think of to add off the top of my head is the Palantir. Two factors (1) no Pippin to look into it, and it's impossible to picture even the most powerful Elf trying to snatch it from under Gandalf's arm, thus leading to serious consequences when Gandalf looks into the Palantir himself. (Gandalf says as much in TTT, that if he had looked in the consequences may have been disastrous). (2) Gandalf could well still be the Grey at this point. If Gandalf the White was dubious about his ability to look into the Palantir, how would Gandalf the Grey have done? Not good, is my guess. The Quest might have over a lot quicker, and nastier.

Add everything you pointed out after that - Eowyn unable to strike the Witch-King, no saving of Faramir - and we're looking at a Pyrrhic victory if there ever was one.

Diamond18 · 02-08-2003, 02:35 AM

Well, actual events and outcomes in the story aside,

If elves had gone on the quest instead of Merry and Pippin: the book would have been boring! You're talking about axing two of my favorite characters, so I think I can safely say that LotR would not hold as much for me if they weren't in it, or were at least sent home one third of the way through (I mean, how many people think about Fatty Bolger that much?) Maybe I wouldn't even be a member of the Barrow Downs...who knows? Who can predict the future of an altered past?

Then, also, I would not have my nifty forum nick, and my ideas of what I want in a man wouldn't have an uncanny resemblance to a certain foolish Took. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

02-08-2003, 06:28 AM

Without Merry & Pip?? DEAR GOD! The book & film would be so boring, the book is made more lighthearted by these Hobbits, cutting them out would be as bad as gettin shot of Aragorn! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Tenduriel · 02-08-2003, 07:39 AM

i don't know if this is already said, but remember Gandalfs words: he said to Frodo that he was meant to get the ring. don't you think the other members of the fellowship were meant to come along too?
if you look to it closely, it seems that the only way this quest could come to a good end was exactly by this group of people. did faith have something to do with it?...

Tenduriel · 02-08-2003, 07:39 AM

i don't know if this is already said, but remember Gandalfs words: he said to Frodo that he was meant to get the ring. don't you think the other members of the fellowship were meant to come along too?
if you look to it closely, it seems that the only way this quest could come to a good end was exactly by this group of people. did faith have something to do with it?...

Aeryn Evenstar · 02-08-2003, 11:04 AM

I agree with Tenduriel. Everyone in the fellowship had an important part to play. None of them were of lesser significance. With no Merry or Pippin it might not have been a victory for the race of men. And Eowyn my have been killed instead of just wounded.

02-06-2003, 06:12 PM	#1
Evenstar1069 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 15	If elves had gone on the quest instead of Merry and Pippin I looked for a topic like this but I couldn't find one so I hope I'm not repeating anything. Before the nine companions actually started their quest Elrond was considering sending some elves from his house instead of Merry and Pippin. I was wondering what everyone thinks would have happened differently? Would they have gone to Moria? Would they lose Gandalf? Would they stay so long in Lorien? Would Frodo have had the chance to leave with Sam for Mordor alone? Would they have managed to complete the quest? I'm curious about your thoughts. __________________ Here you will dwell, bound to your grief, under the fading trees

02-06-2003, 07:25 PM	#3
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 893	Yeah that's an interesting one... Crossing the Misty Mountains - they probably still don't make it Decision to go through Moria - the elves would likely be opposed to Moria as Legolas was, Gandalf has more serious opposition, but then the wolves appear.. Moria - the orcs aren't alarmed as early (no Pippin), this could have v. big consequences! If the Balrog misses his appointment at the bridge, Gandalf escapes, but doesn't become 'the white' - scary! Emyn Muil - the company takes more casualties because the Uruk Hai won't leave without capturing halflings. From there on its v. unpredictable, what would Aragorn or Gandalf decide, follow Frodo and Sam or head to Minas Tirith or Rohan? Other problems = Rohan defeated perhaps - would Gandalf etc. go to Edoras, would the Ents be roused ??? No riders at the Pelennor Fields, Gondor and Rohan laid waste. Merry doesn't kill witchking, Pippin fails to save Faramir, the scouring of the shire changes. As they say, for the want of a nail.... __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

02-06-2003, 07:47 PM	#4
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	If they were anything like Legolas, we would probably have more hair tangles and broken nails [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] But on to the actual question That is very confusing, it would be very intersted about what would happen. Though I do think they would still go into Moria because that was ultimately Frodo's choice, because not even Gandalf wanted to go there, and then all the other things I don't know. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

02-06-2003, 07:49 PM	#5
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	It would have been different. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

02-06-2003, 08:32 PM	#6
Aduyuldaiel-MirkwoodPrincess Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MirkWood Posts: 73	Hmm. that is an interesting question. I never thought about it. It would have gone all wrong. But I would have rather had elves than dwarves... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ "when all is said and done and dead does he love you the way that i do?"

02-06-2003, 06:28 PM	#2
Redcoat Guest Posts: n/a	hmm, now there's a thought... no idea about whether Frodo and Sam would have been able to go to Mordor alone (although i suspect they still would have got away). The main change i can think off, is that without merry and Pippin becoming Rider of Rohan/Soldier of Gondor, the shire may not have been saved at the end. Since it is those two who organise the defences....

02-06-2003, 09:17 PM	#7
Evenstar1069 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 15	Wow I never really thought about the impact Merry and Pippin not being there would have, I just thought about the changes the elves being there instead would make. One thing I'm sure of is it would have been duller and more quick paced seeing how the elves seem to be alot more serious than hobbits. And poor Merry and Pippin probably would have ended up in lockholes. __________________ Here you will dwell, bound to your grief, under the fading trees

02-07-2003, 02:25 AM	#8
Deathwail Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Door of Night Posts: 99	Matter who the Elves are,you send two more common elves like Legolas it would of been for the worse like others have said in this post.BUT if you sent lets say Fingolfin and Ecthelion (remember these guys have been reborn like Glorfindel)then Sauron would be in some hot water even if he gets his ring. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ He who arises in Might.

02-07-2003, 08:53 AM	#9
Jurion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 85	Whoa, Fingolfin in the Third Age, that guy challenged the Dark Lord Morgoth and wounded him several times, he would have given Sauron a run for his money if he really wanted to. But then again, even with two other Elves, even powerfull ones like Fingolfin, the Quest would have probably failed because of the various things Merry and Pippin did not happening as described in an above post.

02-07-2003, 09:49 AM	#10
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	If Glorfindel was with them, and that bad old balrog turnd up he would have showen him a thing or two just like at the fall of gondorlin(sp?) __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

02-07-2003, 07:46 PM	#11
propagandalf Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Grey Havens Posts: 29	i think it was the combination of hobbits-elves-wizard and men that made the quest.. ermmm... (SPOILERS AHEADDDDDDDDDDD) successful [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]. [ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: propagandalf ] __________________ if you don't ask me out to dinner i don't eat. -radiohead

02-07-2003, 09:59 PM	#12
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Rumil - good points, all. The only one I can think of to add off the top of my head is the Palantir. Two factors (1) no Pippin to look into it, and it's impossible to picture even the most powerful Elf trying to snatch it from under Gandalf's arm, thus leading to serious consequences when Gandalf looks into the Palantir himself. (Gandalf says as much in TTT, that if he had looked in the consequences may have been disastrous). (2) Gandalf could well still be the Grey at this point. If Gandalf the White was dubious about his ability to look into the Palantir, how would Gandalf the Grey have done? Not good, is my guess. The Quest might have over a lot quicker, and nastier. Add everything you pointed out after that - Eowyn unable to strike the Witch-King, no saving of Faramir - and we're looking at a Pyrrhic victory if there ever was one. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

02-08-2003, 02:35 AM	#13
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Well, actual events and outcomes in the story aside, If elves had gone on the quest instead of Merry and Pippin: the book would have been boring! You're talking about axing two of my favorite characters, so I think I can safely say that LotR would not hold as much for me if they weren't in it, or were at least sent home one third of the way through (I mean, how many people think about Fatty Bolger that much?) Maybe I wouldn't even be a member of the Barrow Downs...who knows? Who can predict the future of an altered past? Then, also, I would not have my nifty forum nick, and my ideas of what I want in a man wouldn't have an uncanny resemblance to a certain foolish Took. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

02-08-2003, 06:28 AM	#14
Manquesseiel Guest Posts: n/a	Without Merry & Pip?? DEAR GOD! The book & film would be so boring, the book is made more lighthearted by these Hobbits, cutting them out would be as bad as gettin shot of Aragorn! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

02-08-2003, 07:39 AM	#15
Tenduriel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Erreseä (temporary stay: Belgium) Posts: 37	i don't know if this is already said, but remember Gandalfs words: he said to Frodo that he was meant to get the ring. don't you think the other members of the fellowship were meant to come along too? if you look to it closely, it seems that the only way this quest could come to a good end was exactly by this group of people. did faith have something to do with it?... __________________ navaer! 5r#`C6R (Goodbye) O mór henion i dhû - Ely siriar, êl síla - Ai! Aniron Undómiel - Tiro! Êl eria e môr. - I 'lîr en êl luitha 'uren. - Ai! Aniron

02-08-2003, 11:04 AM	#17
Aeryn Evenstar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 14	I agree with Tenduriel. Everyone in the fellowship had an important part to play. None of them were of lesser significance. With no Merry or Pippin it might not have been a victory for the race of men. And Eowyn my have been killed instead of just wounded.