What do your Elven eyes see?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

An early morning winter walk, with stars still shining, reminded me of this movie quote and got me to thinking about Elven eyesight. Now, according to Tolkien's mythology, the Elves awoke under the stars - and it was long before the sun was created. That means that they did everything - reading and writing, arts and crafts, all the things of daily life - by a minimal amount of light.

Granted, we don't know if the stars may not have shone brighter then than they do now, but it seems to me that their eyes would be different than ours. I'm not an expert, but as I remember from biology, the pupils regulate the amount of light that enters into the eyes. Do you suppose they had more sensitive pupils, that could adjust much more, since they would not have changed in nature after the appearance of the sun? What other differences would you suggest that would enable them to see under minimal light? Has anyone read information by Tolkien on this subject?

I'm reminded of Star Trek's Spock, whose Vulcan eyes had an additional inner eyelid to protect them from extreme light...

[Groin Redbeard]

I think you're right about elves having some sort of special night vision. I wouldn't put it past Tolkien to give his little elves another special ability.

Elves remind me alot of cats. You can just picture them stalking around at nightime without a sound, moving from tree to tree.

Where the Silmarils made shortly after the elves where created? I forgotten.

[Bêthberry]

Well, there was the light of the Two Trees, whose last fruits were recreated as the sun and the moon, but I'm not sure how far they cast their light. Or how a tree would/could cast light, unless we are talking about a very special, powerful form of luminescence.

I've seen a white garden glow in evening and twilight, but that is a reflected light.

Maybe the elves had a kind of infrared vision that could distinguish heat, especially the kind of heat generated by creative energy?

[Lord Halsar]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

IWhere the Silmarils made shortly after the elves where created? I forgotten.

A tad off-topic, but I'll answer you anyway. I believe that Feanor was born in the year 1173 of the Years of the Trees and the Silmarils in the year 1450.

As for the topic itself, I would expect such, what with evolution and al such. But perhaps that may be proof of otherwise. The elves were a race that seemed very firmly set with what they were (save for the cases of the Halfelven), meaning that their own forms were set-in-stone, barely changable over the course of years and events. Men however, were shorter living and changed easily. It was a chain of balances set by Eru. He made Men short-living but flexible in the ever-changing world. While the elves had longevity and did not shift so easily. however, it is quite possible that they already posessed such sight upon awakening...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Bb

Maybe the elves had a kind of infrared vision that could distinguish heat, especially the kind of heat generated by creative energy?

If I recall correctly from my Players Handbook, Elves have 60 foot infravision. And the ability to detect secret doors.

[Galendor]

One odd thing about Tolkien's Elves is that they can mate with humans, and produce viable offspring that can then supposedly successfully mate with other elves or humans. Is the last bit true - does Tolkien's work ever indicate that the offspring of a Elf-human sexual union (such as Aragorn and Arwen's child) can then go on to have children with another human or Elf? I don't know the answer, I'm asking.

If so, then Elves and humans are THE SAME biological species, and it is strange that the phenotype (outward appearance and abilities) would be so different between these two "strains" of the same species. For example, Elves are immortal whereas humans are mortal, Elves have better eyesight than humans, and so on.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, it's certainly true that Dior and Earendil went on to have children, indeed the ancestors of A&A, so I would say, Yessirreebob.

Keep in mind of course this is the world of giant talking Eagles and rings of invisibility and, of course, quasi-immortal incarnates- so I wouldn't lean too heavily on the science. Might as well wonder how a rainshower impregnated Danae.....

[Lord Gothmog]

Originally Posted by Galendor

One odd thing about Tolkien's Elves is that they can mate with humans, and produce viable offspring that can then supposedly successfully mate with other elves or humans. Is the last bit true - does Tolkien's work ever indicate that the offspring of a Elf-human sexual union (such as Aragorn and Arwen's child) can then go on to have children with another human or Elf? I don't know the answer, I'm asking.

If so, then Elves and humans are THE SAME biological species, and it is strange that the phenotype (outward appearance and abilities) would be so different between these two "strains" of the same species. For example, Elves are immortal whereas humans are mortal, Elves have better eyesight than humans, and so on.

Tolkien did give much thought to this problem and here is his answer found in Tolkien's Letters: 153 to Peter Hastings

I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.1 But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.

But as it is — though it seems to have grown out of hand, so that parts seem (to me) rather revealed through me than by me – its purpose is still largely literary (and, if you don't boggle at the term, didactic). Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them. ....

[Galendor]

Originally Posted by Lord Gothmog

Tolkien did give much thought to this problem and here is his answer found in Tolkien's Letters: 153 to Peter Hastings

Well, that answers it, thank you for this. Like Tolkien, I do not really care about proper application of the biological species concept to men and Elves. It was merely an observation. Thanks again.

[alatar]

I'm not really seeing the issue. Various species inhabiting our current environments see at different levels of acuity (think birds of prey). Bugs see in different spectra altogether. Cats, as noted, see well enough in low light to hunt (when they should be sleeping, like the rest of the household ). Other mammals are nocturnal as well.

And even just before the Elves rose, Varda put up new constellations, which surely were brighter than they may be now (probably still had that new star smell as well).

Anyway, with all of that, our eyes really aren't that different. Squids, however, must have been the apple of the Creator's...er...anyway, you can read more about how incredible their eyes are here.

[skip spence]

Many city-folks have also forgotten that on a clear night away from any artificial lights the stars do illuminate quite adequately, even without the moon, at least well enough for normal humans with normal eyesight to move about without trouble. Perhaps the elven eyes just grew accustomed to the scarce light throughout the years, just as ours might have done if we were in the same situation.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Many city-folks have also forgotten that on a clear night away from any artificial lights the stars do illuminate quite adequately, even without the moon, at least well enough for normal humans with normal eyesight to move about without trouble. Perhaps the elven eyes just grew accustomed to the scarce light throughout the years, just as ours might have done if we were in the same situation.

I was thinking the same thing. As stated before somewhere, took the boy camping for a few days in the middle of mostly no where. Though not very familiar with the area, I still able to navigate around in the dark with only minor slow downs - except when one of the scouts would blast me in the eyes with his flashlight, asking, "Can you see?"

"Not anymore..."

[Boromir88]

Hopefully this isn't too far off Tolkien, if it is, I'll delete it, but it's pretty fascinating info. (Guess where I saw it?...Mythbusters )

Pirates possibly wore eyepatches so they could protect one eye from the brutal sun, and when they go underdeck/or at night they switch the eye patch over and can see at night. I tried it and it actually works, it's like natural human night vision, very cool. Just get an eye patch, and at night, turn on the lights in your house, make it nice and bright for about half an hour, then make it pitch black, switch the patch over...bingo nightvision in one eye. You can see everything! It's actually more like wight-vision. It all has something to do with rods and cones in your eyes.

So, don't give those fancy elves credit for everything, we can see very well at night too! hmm...wonder if Tolkien as aware of this bit of info.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I tried it and it actually works, it's like natural human night vision, very cool.

You might be able to market such technology; though you may want to have them filter the amount of light to each eye simultaneously...