The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > The New Silmarillion > Translations from the Elvish - Public Forum
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-09-2018, 12:49 PM   #1
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,435
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Aldarion and Erendis

This is the first draft of the chapter Aldrion and Erendis in the part The Black Years.

In this chapter Aladrion and Erendis (AE) from UT is the basic text.

The editing markings are:
BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part.

AE-SL-zz for Aldarion and Erendis, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.
Quote:
BY-HL-06<Aldarion and Erendis
The Mariner's Wife
Meneldur was the son of Tar-Elendil, the fourth King of Númenor. ... from whom came long after the lines of the Kings of Gondor and Arnor in Middle-earth.
Meneldur was a man of gentle mood, without pride, ... from which by night he would survey the heavens and observe all the movements of the light of the firmament.AE-SL-01{1}
When Meneldur received the Sceptre he removed, ... rather than after Meneldur.
The son of Meneldur and Almarian was Anardil, ... who comes later into the tale.AE-SL-02{2}
Aldarion, for so he is called in all tales, ... being well-pleased that Aldarion should have exercise for his hardihood and work for thought and hand.
Aldarion was much loved by Vëantur his mother's father, ... sailing from haven to haven.
It happened on a time that Vëantur said to his grandson ... Speak of this to your father."AE-SL-03{3}
When Aldarion spoke of this venture, ... you who one day must be King and Father of this Isle!"

Thus it came to pass that on a morning of fair sun and white wind, in the bright spring of the seven hundred and twenty-fifth year of the Second Age, the son of the King's Heir of Númenor[Footnote to the text: The son of the King's Heir: Aldarion son of Meneldur. Tar-Elendil did not resign the sceptre to Meneldur until a further fifteen years had passed.] sailed from the land; and ere day was over he saw it sink shim¬mering into the sea, and last of all the peak of the Meneltarma as a dark finger against the sunset.
It is said that Aldarion himself wrote records of all his jour¬neys to Middle-earth, ... and in the building of walls to withstand the hunger of the sea.
There was joy in Rómenna and Armenelos when men saw the great ship Númerrámar (which signifies "West-wings") com¬ing up from the sea, her golden sails reddened in the sunset. The summer was nearly over and the Eruhantalë was nigh.[Footnote to the text: Eruhantalë: "Thanksgiving to Eru," the autumn feast in Númenor AE-SL-04{; see the "Description of Númenor" p. 174}.] It seemed to Meneldur when he welcomed his son in the house of Vëantur that he had grown in stature, and his eyes were brighter; but they looked far away.
"What did you see, onya, in your far journeys that now lives most in memory?"
But Aldarion, looking east towards the night, was silent. ... and that love and desire never left him until his life's end.
Vëantur did not again voyage from Númenor; ... past the mouths of Baranduin and Gwathló and Angren, and he rounded the dark cape of Ras Morthil and be¬held the great Bay of Belfalas, and the mountains of the country of Amroth where the Nandor Elves still dwell.[Footnote to the text: (Sîr) Angren was the Elvish name of the river Isen. Ras Morthil, a name not otherwise found, must be the great headland at the end of the northern arm of the Bay of Belfalas, which was also called Andrast (Long Cape).
The reference to "the country of Amroth where the Nandor Elves still dwell" can be taken to imply that the tale of Aldarion and Erendis was written down in Gondor before the departure of the last ship from the haven of the Silvan Elves near Dol Amroth in the year 1981 of the Third Age AE-SL-05{; see pp. 252 ff}.]
In the thirty-ninth year of his age Aldarion returned to Númenor, ... but for the most part it lay at anchor off Tol Uinen: and that was a little isle in the bay of Rómenna that was set there by Uinen the Lady of the Seas. AE-SL-06{7} Upon Eämbar was the Guildhouse of the Venturers, and there were kept the records of their great voyages;[Footnote to the text: It is stated that the Guildhouse of the Venturers {"}was confiscated by the Kings, and removed to the western haven of Andúnië; all its records perished AE-SL-07{" (i.e.} in the Downfall{)}, including all the accurate charts of Númenor. But it is not said when this confiscation of Eämbar took place.] for Tar-Meneldur looked coldly on the en¬terprises of his son, and cared not to hear the tale of his jour¬neys, believing that he sowed the seeds of restlessness and the desire of other lands to hold.
In that time Aldarion became estranged from his father, ... and at the mouth of the river that the Númenóreans called Gwathir, River of Shadow, he es¬tablished Vinyalondë, the New Haven.[Footnote to the text: The river was afterwards called Gwathló or Greyflood, and the haven Lond Daer AE-SL-08{; see pp. 274 ff}.]

But when nigh on eight hundred years had passed since the beginning of the Second Age, ... There Almarian the Queen observed her beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor; for Beregar came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros, and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin.[Footnote to the text: AE-SL-09{Cf. The Silmarillion p. 148: "The Men of that House [i.e. of Bëor] were dark or brown of hair, with grey eyes." }According to a genea¬logical table of the House of Bëor Erendis was descended from Bereth, who was the sister of Baragund and Belegund, and thus the aunt of Morwen mother of Túrin Turambar and of Rían the mother of Tuor.] But Erendis looked upon Aldarion as he rode by, and for his beauty and splendour of bearing she had eyes for little else. ... Is there nothing that will hold you in the fairest of all mortal lands?"
"Not yet," he answered; "but there are fairer things in Armenelos than a man could find elsewhere, even in the lands of the Eldar. But mariners are men of two minds, at war with themselves; and the desire of the Sea still holds me."
Erendis believed that these words were spoken also for her ears; ... and every suitor she dismissed.
Seven years passed before Aldarion came back, ... which he will rule."
"Do I not study men all my days?" said Aldarion. "I can lead and govern them as I will."
"Say rather, some men, ... Yet one day you must take a wife."
"One day!" said Aldarion. "But not before I must; ... and learns better how to deal with the sea."
"Further, but not more profit," said Meneldur. "And you do not 'deal with the sea,' ... or in the lands of men of darkness."
"To what purpose then is the gracing of our ships," said Al¬darion, "if they are to sail to no shores, and may seek nothing not seen before?"
He spoke no more to his father of such matters, ... and her heart is already won." AE-SL-10{11}

Now when the great ship Palarran was built Aldarion would depart once more. ... which the Eldar gave to the Númenóreans, AE-SL-11{12} saying that they set it upon their own ships in token of friendship with Ossë and Uinen. ... then so I will go."
Then the Queen was grieved; but Erendis said to her: "Tarihya, if you will cut the bough from the Elven-tree, I will bear it to the haven, by your leave; for the King has not forbidden it to me."
The mariners thought it an ill thing that the Captain should depart thus; ... as soon as may be."
At that time Aldarion first looked on Erendis with love; ... and he demanded that Aldarion declare his mind.
"In gratitude I brought it," said he, "for a warm heart amid the coldness of others."
"Cold hearts may not kindle others to give them warmth ... and went away in the dark.
At the open rebellion of Aldarion ... and put a guard about Rómenna.
On that voyage Aldarion was away so long that the people feared for him; and Meneldur himself was disquieted, despite the grace of the Valar that had ever protected the ships of Númenor. AE-SL-12{14} When ten years were gone since his sailing Erendis at last despaired, ... and added thereto the title of Master of the Forests.
Aldarion was grieved to find Erendis gone from Armenelos, ... and he journeyed far and wide in Númenor to view the standing woods.
Riding one day in the forests of the Westlands ... or else be herself defeated utterly.
But Aldarion wooed Erendis in earnest, ... rather is she my foe."
Thereafter for a while doubt again assailed Erendis, ... and heard the bleating of the flocks.
There Erendis spoke to Aldarion and said: "Here could I be at ease!"
"You shall dwell where you will, as wife of the King's Heir," said Aldarion. "And as Queen in many fair houses, such as you desire."
"When you are King, I shall be old," said Erendis. "Where will the King's Heir dwell meanwhile?"
"With his wife," said Aldarion, "when his labours allow, if she cannot share in them."
"I will not share my husband with the Lady Uinen," said Erendis.
"That is a twisted saying," said Aldarion. "As well might I say that I would not share my wife with the Lord Oromë of Forests, because she loves trees that grow wild."
"Indeed you would not," said Erendis; "for you would fell any wood as a gift to Uinen, if you had a mind."
"Name any tree that you love and it shall stand till it dies," said Aldarion.
"I love all that grow in this Isle," said Erendis. ... had passed between herself and Aldarion.
"All or nothing, Erendis," said Núneth. ... nor if they were cradled in the King's house would that displease me."
This counsel did not indeed move the mind of Erendis; ... and he did not come again into the west.
Now Almarian the Queen, ... they ascended in the retinue of the King to the summit of the Meneltarma, which was the Hallowed Mountain of the Númenóreans.[Footnote to the text: Erukyermë: "Prayer to Eru," the feast of the Spring in Númenor AE-SL-13{; see the "Description of Númenor" p. 174}.] When all had gone down again Aldarion and Erendis remained be¬hind; and they looked out, seeing all the Isle of Westernesse laid green beneath them in the spring, and they saw the glimmer of light in the West where far away was Avallónë, AE-SL-14{17} and the shadows in the East upon the Great Sea; and the Menel was blue above them. ... towards the woods of her home.
"Do you not love the Yôzâyan?" she said.
"I love it indeed," he answered, "though I think that you doubt it. For I think also of what it may be in time to come, and the hope and splendour of its people; and I believe that a gift should not lie idle in hoard."
But Erendis denied his words, ... "Would you have me trade this to buy me other goods that I desire?"
"No!" said he. "But you do not lock it in hoard. ... and their troth was plighted upon the steep path of the Meneltarma.
They went back then to Armenelos, ... I have gems as green as the light of the sun in the leaves of trees which you love."
"No!" said Erendis. "I have had my betrothal gift, ... which was the eight hundred and fifty-eighth of the Second Age.

But alone among the people the mariners of the Guild of Venturers were not well content. ... and they were less in company.
Now the year came in, ... so that he came to Beregar's house before evening.
There she welcomed him gladly, ... and irresolute.
So the year drew on, ... and the love they bore one another was no longer clouded.
"My son," said Tar-Meneldur, ... I marvel that you could endure so long a delay."
Then Aldarion was silent, ... and the hard ground of stone wounds my feet."
Then Meneldur was grieved, ... for you are affianced to Erendis."
Then Aldarion's heart was hardened, ... "Therefore why may not mariners sail?"
"If smiths remained five years at the anvil ... nor is he under necessity."
"There are other needs than livelihood that drive a man," said Aldarion. "And there are yet many years to spare."
"Nay, nay," said Meneldur, "you take your grace for granted: Erendis has shorter hope than you, and her years wane swifter. She is not of the line of Elros; and she has loved you now many years."
"She held back well nigh twelve years, when I was eager," said Aldarion. "I do not ask for a third of such a time."
"She was not then betrothed, ... as I judge."
Then Aldarion said in anger: "It were better to speak with my betrothed myself, ... At length she said: "I thought that you were come to speak of our wedding."
"I will," said Aldarion. ... where still you may hear the great horn of Oromë the Lord."
But Erendis wept. ... and take not so many years as I lost before."
Then Aldarion was abashed; ... until it passed out beyond the great new harbour-walls.
Six years and more passed away ... Glad am I to see the Pillar."
When Aldarion sought out Erendis ... Much must you have seen and done in these long years!"
Then Aldarion began haltingly, ... for I should have withered sooner than any green bough."
"Your green bough did not go into the bitter cold by will," he answered. "But dismiss me now, if you will, and I think that men will not blame you. Yet dare I not to hope that your love will prove stronger to endure even than fair oiolairë?"
"So it does prove indeed," said Erendis. "It is not yet chilled to the death, Aldarion. Alas! How can I dismiss you, when I look on you again, returning as fair as the sun after winter!"
"Then let spring and summer now begin!" he said.
"And let not winter return," said Erendis.

Then to the joy of Meneldur and Almarian the wedding of the King's Heir was proclaimed ... for love of Erendis and pride that a Queen of Númenor should come from among them.
In the morning before the feast Aldarion gazed out from the window of the bedchamber, ... who were closest in their friendship.[Footnote to the text: In the Westlands and in Andúnië the Elven-tongue AE-SL-15{[}Sindarin{]} was spoken by high and low. In that tongue Erendis was nurtured; but Aldarion spoke the Númenórean speech, although as all high men of Númenor he knew also the tongue of Beleriand. AE-SL-16{[Author's note.] – }Elsewhere, in a note on the languages of Númenor, it is said that the general use of Sindarin in the north-west of the Isle was due to the fact that those parts were largely settled by people of "Bëorian" descent; and the People of Bëor had in Beleriand early abandoned their own speech and adopted Sindarin. AE-SL-17{(Of this there is no mention in The Silmarillion, though it is said there (p. 148) that in Dor-lómin in the days of Fingolfin the people of Hador did not forget their own speech, "and from it came the common tongue of Númenor.")} In other regions of Númenor Adûnaic was the native language of the people, though Sindarin was known in some degree to nearly all; and in the royal house, and in most of the houses of the noble or learned, Sindarin was usually the native tongue, until after the days of Tar-Atanamir. (It is said later in the present narrative AE-SL-18{(p. 203) }that Aldarion actually preferred the Númenórean speech; it may be that in this he was exceptional.) This note further states that although Sindarin as used for a long period by mortal Men tended to become divergent and dialectal, this process was largely checked in Númenor, at least among the nobles and the learned, by their contact with the Eldar of Eressëa and Lindon. Quenya was not a spoken tongue in Númenor. It was known only to the learned and to the families of high descent, to whom it was taught in their early youth. It was used in official documents in¬tended for preservation, such as the Laws, and the Scroll and Annals of the Kings AE-SL-19{ (cf. the Akallabêth p. 267; "in the Scroll of Kings the name Herunúmen was inscribed in the High-elven speech")}, and often in more recondite works of lore. It was also largely used in nomenclature: the official name of all places, re¬gions, and geographical features in the land were of Quenya form (though they usually had also local names, generally of the same meaning, in either Sindarin or Adûnaic ). The personal names, and especially the official and public names, of all members of the royal house, and of the Line of Elros in general, were given in Quenya form. AE-SL-20{
In a reference to these matters in The Lord of the Rings, Ap¬pendix F, I (section Of Men), a somewhat different impression is given of the place of Sindarin among the languages of Númenor: "The Dunedain alone of all races of Men knew and spoke an Elvish tongue; for their forefathers had learned the Sindarin tongue, and this they handed on to their children as a matter of lore, changing little with the passing of the years."}]

Their ship was laden with flowers for the adornment of the feast, so that all that sat there, when evening was come, were crowned with elanor[Footnote to the text: Elanor was a small golden star-shaped flower; it grew also upon the mound of Cerin Amroth in Lothlórien AE-SL-21{(The Fellowship of the Ring, II 6). Sam Gamgee gave its name to his daughter, on Frodo’s suggestion (The Retuen of the King VI 9)}] and sweet lissuin whose fragrance brings heart's ease. ... and they said that her eyes were as bright as were the eyes of Morwen {Eledhwen}[Edhelwen] of old," or even as those of Avallónë.
Many gifts the Eldar brought also. ... "The wood of such a tree must be precious indeed."
"Maybe; we know not," said they. "None has ever been hewn. It bears cool leaves in summer, and flowers in winter. It is for this that we prize it."
To Erendis they gave a pair of birds, ... and they would not sing apart.
"How shall I keep them?" said Erendis.
"Let them fly and be free," ... Maybe there will be many such birds to sing in the gardens of your children."

That night Erendis awoke, ... but the two birds sat side by side upon her sill.
* * *
When the feasting was ended Aldarion and Erendis went for a while to her home; ... and the Elven-birds sang in its boughs.

Two years later Erendis conceived, ... caring for them rather as timber that would serve his designs.
Not far otherwise was it with the Sea. ... but that was not its name.
Erendis learned of these things, ... She spoke lightly, and smiled as she spoke.
"A man must have work to do upon land," ... and they did not speak again of these matters.
But when Ancalimë was close on four years old Aldarion ... I shall soon return."
"Soon?" she said. "But the years are unrelenting, and you will not bring them back with you. And mine are briefer than yours. My youth runs away; and where are my children, and where is your heir? Too long and often of late is my bed cold. "[Footnote to the text: It is stated that the Númenóreans, like the Eldar, avoided the begetting of children if they foresaw any separation likely between husband and wife between the conception of the child and at least its very early years. Aldarion stayed in his house for a very brief time after the birth of his daughter, according to the Númenóreans' idea of the fitness of things.]
"Often of late I have thought that you preferred it so," ... Two years is all that I ask!"
But Erendis answered: "Say rather: 'Two years I will take, whether you will or no.' Take two years, then! But no more. A King's son of the blood of Eärendil should also be a man of his word."
Next morning Aldarion hastened away. ... but he did not look back until the Meneltarma was far off in the twilight.
All that day Erendis sat in her chamber alone, ... and while there they felt constrained to speak nail in whisper.
One morning soon after Erendis came to Emerië ... "This is no place for such joy as yours."
Then their song ceased, ... back to the land whence they came.
"He has gone again, then, and left her," said Núneth.
"Then why has she not sent news?" said Beregar. ''Or why has she not come home?"
"She has sent news enough," ... or guile, at' the least!"

When the second year after Aldarion's sailing came in, ... I have played that part to the full."
But that year passed, ... and eating under the sky.

One day in the summer of that year a young boy, ... Then he set down his mug.
"Stare, if you must, great eyes!" he said. "You're a pretty girl, but too thin. Will you eat?" He took a loaf out of his bag.
"Be off, Îbal!" cried an old woman, coming from the dairy-door. "And use your long legs, or you'll forget the message I gave you for your mother before you get home!"
"No need for a watch-dog where you are, mother Zamîn!" ... even by the White Lady
"What noisy thing was that?" said Ancalimë.
"A boy," said Zamîn, ... I might say that of others."
"Has the boy then a father too?" asked Ancalimë. "To be sure," said Zamîn. "Ulbar, one of the shepherds of the great lord away south: the Sheep-lord we call him, a kins¬man of the King."
"Then why is the boy's father not at home?"
"Why, hérinkë," said Zamîn, ... or why."
That evening Ancalimë said suddenly to her mother: "Is my father also called the Lord Aldarion?"
"He was," said Erendis. "But why do you ask?" Her voice was quiet and cool, but she wondered and was troubled; for no word concerning Aldarion had passed between them before.
Ancalimë did not answer the question. "When will he come back?" she said.
"Do not ask me!" said Erendis. ... for he thought he had much to say to him.
He found his welcome no warmer than he looked for; ... "It is more than three years now since the date that you set for your re¬turn."
"Alas!" said Aldarion. ... And all things go backward in my absence."
"I do not doubt it," said Meneldur. "You will find it true here also in your right land, I fear."
"That I hope to redress," said Aldarion. ... and my thought concerning what should be done."
"You shall do so," said Meneldur. ... Go home!"
Aldarion stood suddenly still, and his face was stern. "If you know, tell me," he said. "Where is my home?"
"Where your wife is," ... Thither you must go at once."
"Had any word been left for me, ... and Ulbar who came from Emerië.
Riding hard they came to Emerië at nightfall of the next day, ... He blew horn-call as soon as he saw it from afar.
As he leapt from his horse in the forecourt he saw Erendis: ... but as he drew near he saw that she was pale and her eyes over-bright.
"You come late, my lord," she said. ... as I had made when you were due."
"Mariners are not hard to please," he said.
"That is well," she said; ... Go down to the homestead at the hill's foot!"
"No, Zamîn," said Ulbar. "I'll not stay. I am for home, by the Lord Aldarion's leave. Is all well there?"
"Well enough," said she. ... You'll be warmer there than your Captain."

Erendis did not come to the table at his late evening-meal, ... call for fire."
Aldarion made no answer. ... and she stood before him on the threshold.
"You leave more promptly than you came, ... May I learn it before you leave?"
"I was told in Armenelos that my wife was here, ... but have I not a daughter?"
"You had one some years ago," she said. "But my daughter has not yet risen."
"Then let her rise, while I go for my horse," said Aldarion.

Erendis would have withheld Ancalimë from meeting him at that time; but she feared to go so far as to lose the King's favour, and the Council[Footnote to the text: In a note on the "Council of the Sceptre" at this time in the history of Númenor it is said that this Council had no powers to govern the King save by advice; and no such powers had yet been desired or dreamed of as needful. The Council was composed of members from each of the divisions of Númenor; but the King's Heir when proclaimed was also a member, so that he might learn of the gov¬ernment of the land, and others also the King might summon, or ask to be chosen, if they had special knowledge of matters at any time in debate. At this time there were only two members of the Council (other than Aldarion) who were of the Line of Elros: Valandil of Andúnië for the Andustar, and Hallatan of Hyarastorni for the Mittalmar; but they owed their place not to their descent or their wealth, but to the esteem and love in which they were held in their countries. AE-SL-22{ (In the Akallabêth (p. 268) it is said that "the Lord of Andúnië was ever among the chief councillors of the Sceptre.")}] had long shown their displeasure at the upbringing of the child in the country. ... before the house is stirring?"
Aldarion looked at her keenly, and though his face was stern he smiled within: for he saw there a child of his own, rather than of Erendis, for all her schooling.
"You knew me once, Lady Ancalimë," he said, ... then he mounted and rode away with a wave of his hand.
Erendis alone at a window watched him riding down the hill, ... So he would find even were he the King of Númenor."

Aldarion rode on to Hyarastorni, ... and he felt wrathful and bitter.
"I would but ask," said the boy, "how old must a man be, before he may go over sea in a ship, like my father?"
"As old as the hills, and with no other hope in life," said Aldarion. "Or whenever he has a mind! But your mother, Ulbar's son: will she not greet me?"
When Ulbar's wife came forward Aldarion took her hand. ... until more news ran through the countryside.
Aldarion rode only a short way from Hyarastorni ... I have a mind to go alone."
"It is not fitting. Lord Captain," said Henderch. "It is not," said Aldarion. "But that is the way of it. Fare¬well!"
Then he rode on alone to Armenelos, and never again set foot in Emerië.

When Aldarion left the chamber, ... It was sealed and bore his device of white stars upon a blue rondure. AE-SL-23{24} Upon the outer fold was written:

Given at Mithlond to the hand of the Lord Aldarion King's Heir of Númenórë, to be delivered to the High King at Ar¬menelos in person.

Then Meneldur broke the seal and read:

Ereinion AE-SL-24{Gil-galad son of Fingon}<The parentage of Gil-Galad {Finellach} Gil-galad of the House of Finarfin> to Tar-Meneldur of the line of Eärendil, greeting: ... There¬fore I write this for the eyes of the King of Númenórë only.
A new shadow arises in the East. ... lend it to me, I beg.
Your son will report to you, ... did we hold some seat of power upon the nearer shore.
So the Lord Aldarion long has seen. ... whereas Círdan has no wrights or masons to spare.
The King will know his own needs; ... Let not the ancient friendship of Eldar and Dunedain wane also.
Behold! The darkness that is to come is filled with hatred for us, but it hates you no less. The Great Sea will not be too wide for its wings, if it is suffered to come to full growth.
Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails.

Meneldur let the parchment fall into his lap. ... in the gloom that filled his chamber.
"May Eru call me before such a time comes!" he cried aloud. ... For these things are beyond my reach.
"When the Valar gave to us the Land of Gift ... and so was taught.
"Yet if the world grows again dark, ... if evil finds a new head?
"I am in too great doubt to rule. ... At least I spilled no blood?
"When either way may lead to evil, ... Unless Erendis..."
Then Meneldur's thought turned in disquiet to Erendis in Emerië. ... must wait to discover."

Aldarion came back to Rómenna on the fourth day after Hirilondë had returned to haven. ... and unclipped!"
On the third day after his return from Emerië Aldarion sought the King. ... Standing before his father he spoke slowly with tone of contempt rather than of wrath.
"What part you have played in this you yourself know best," he said. ... I will go now about business more profitable."
Thus far Meneldur had sat in patience with downcast eyes and made no sign. ... if you had spoken more openly long ago."
"The King may have some grievance in this," cried Aldarion, ... Or has he some command?"
"The King," answered Tar-Meneldur, ... or not to prepare."
Aldarion shrugged his shoulders, ... he read from it in a clear voice:

Therefore: first for the honour of his well-beloved son; ... who shall now become Tar-Aldarion, the King.

"This," said Meneldur, ... you shall answer as seems fit to the holder of the Sceptre."
Aldarion stood still for a moment in amaze. ... for it gladdened his heart.
"Father," he said, ... That such a King should resign the Sceptre while in vigour and wisdom is not to be thought."
"Yet so it is resolved," said Meneldur. "The Council shall be summoned forthwith."

When the Council came together, ... if it must be.
But to those others who urged this or that ... I will hold the Sceptre."

When news came to Emerië of the proclamation ... and the proclamation of the new King.
"He is swift to strike," she thought. ... though it be by the mouth of his father."
Therefore she returned answer to Tar-Meneldur: ... to take back this house."
This letter Tar-Meneldur read with concern, ... But for what else did you hope?"
"Not for this, at least," said Aldarion. ... while the Lady Elestirnë falls down dim into her own twilight."
Then with a bitter laugh he gave back the letter to the King. ... and begged leave to go. BY-HL-07
The Further Course of the Narrative
AE-SL-25{From the point where Aldarion read the letter from Erendis, ... and often at odds with themselves.
It seems that when}When Aldarion became King of Númenor in the year 883 he determined to revisit Middle-earth at once AE-SL-26 <UT, The Drúedain {When the victories of Morgoth destroyed all the realms and strongholds of Elves and Men in Beleriand, it is said that they had dwindled to a few families, mostly of women and children, some of whom came to the last refuges at the Mouth Sirion.[Footnote to the text: In the annals of Númenor it is said that this remnant was permitted to sail over sea with the Atani, and in the peace of the new land throve and increased again, but took no more part in war, for they dreaded the sea. What happened to them later is only recorded in one of the few legends that survived the Downfall, the story of the first sailings of the Núimenóreans back to Middle-earth, known as The Mariner's Wife. In a copy of this written and preserved in Gondor there is a note by the scribe on a passage in which the Drúedain in the household of King Aldarion the Mariner are mentioned: it relates that the} The Drúedain/ in the household of King Aldarion/, who were ever noted for their strange foresight, were disturbed to hear of his voyages, foreboding that evil would come of them, and begged him to go no more. But they did not succeed, since neither his father nor his wife could prevail on him to change his courses, and the Drúedain departed in distress. AE-SL-27 <moved from above When the victories of Morgoth destroyed all the realms and strongholds of Elves and Men in Beleriand, it is said that {they}/the Drúedain/ had dwindled to a few families, mostly of women and children, some of whom came to the last refuges at the Mouth Sirion. AE-SL-28{[Footnote to the text:} In the annals of Númenor it is said that this remnant was permitted to sail over sea with the Atani, and in the peace of the new land throve and increased again, but took no more part in war, for they dreaded the sea.> From that time onward the Drúedain of Númenor became restless, and despite their fear of the sea one by one, or in twos and threes, they would beg for passages in the great ships that sailed to the North-western shores of Middle-earth. If any asked "Why would you go, and whither?" they answered: "The Great Isle no longer feels sure under our feet, and we wish to return to the lands whence we came." Thus their numbers dwindled again slowly through the long years, and none were left when Elendil escaped from the Downfall: the last had fled the land when Sauron was brought to itAE-SL-29{;. [Author's note.] –There is no trace, either in the materials relating to the story of Aldarion and Erendis or elsewhere, of the presence of Drúedain in Númenor apart from the foregoing, save for a detached note which says that "the Edain who at the end of the War of the Jewels sailed over sea to Númenor contained few remnants of the Folk of Haleth, and the very few Drúedain that accompanied them died out long before the Down¬fall."]>.
But Aldarion
{, and} departed for Mithlond AE-SL-30{either }in the same year{ or the next}. It is recorded that on the prow of Hirilondë he set no bough of oiolairë, but the image of an eagle with golden beak and jewelled eyes, which was the gift of Círdan. AE-SL-31{
}
It perched there, by the craft of its maker, as if poised for flight unerring to some far mark that it espied. "This sign shall lead us to our aim," he said. "For our return let the Valar care – if our deeds do not displease them."
AE-SL-32{
It is also slated that "no}No records are now left of the later voyages that Aldarion made,{"} but {that "}it is known that he went much on land as well as sea, and went up the River Gwathló as far as Tharbad, and there met Galadriel.{" There is no mention elsewhere of this meeting; but at} At that time Galadriel and Celeborn were dwelling in Eregion, at no great distance from Tharbad AE-SL-33{ (see p. 246)}.

But all Aldarion's labours were swept away. The works that he began again at Vinyalondë were never completed, and the sea gnawed them. AE-SL-34{25} Nevertheless he laid the foundation for the achieve¬ment of Tar-Minastir long years after, in the first war with Sauron, and but for his works the fleets of Númenor could not have brought their power in time to the right place – as he foresaw. Already the hostility was growing and dark men out of the mountains were thrusting into Enedwaith. But in Aldarion's day the Númenóreans did not yet desire more room, and his Venturers remained a small people, admired but little emulated. AE-SL-35{

There is no mention of any further development of the alliance with Gil-galad, or of the sending of the aid that he requested in his letter to Tar-Meneldur; it is said indeed that:

}/And /Aldarion was too late, or too early. Too late: for the power that hated Númenor had already waked. Too early: for the time was not yet ripe for Númenor to show its power or to come back into the battle for the world.
AE-SL-36{
}There was a stir in Númenor when Tar-Aldarion determined to re¬turn to Middle-earth in 883 AE-SL-37{ or 884}, for no King had ever before left the Isle, and the Council had no precedent. AE-SL-38{It seems that }Meneldur was offered but refused the regency, and {that }Hallatan of Hyarastorni became regent, either appointed by the Council or by Tar-Aldarion himself.
AE-SL-39/
/{Of the history of }Ancalimë {during those years when she was growing up there is no certain form. There is less doubt concerning her some¬what ambiguous character, and the influence that her mother exerted on her. She} was less prim than Erendis, ... and indeed a remarkable example of Erendis' teaching in this respect is preserved:

"Men in Númenor are half-Elves," {(}said Erendis{)}, "especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other. The long life that they were granted deceives them, and they dally in the world, children in mind, until age finds them – ... if anything dare to withstand them.
"Thus it is, Ancalimë, and we cannot alter it. ... though it blow away all your leaves."

Moreover, and more potently, Erendis had made Ancalimë ac¬customed to the society of women: ... and the weariness of labour or of all making was not taken away.
Ancalimë, like her father, was resolute in pursuing her policies; ... to live where and how she pleased.
{It seems that for}For some eighteen years after Aldarion became King he was often gone from Númenor; ... and saw promise of sport as the prize for which her mother and her father did battle.
Now in the year 892, when Ancalimë was nineteen years old, she was proclaimed the King's Heir (at a far earlier age than had previously been the case AE-SL-40{, see p. 185}); and at that time Tar-Aldarion caused the law of succession in Númenor to be changed. It is said specifically that Tar-Aldarion did this {"}for reasons of private concern, rather than policy,{"} and out of {"}his long resolve to defeat Erendis. AE-SL-41{" The change of the law is referred to in The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A (I i):

The sixth King [Tar-Aldarion] left only one child, a daughter. She became the first Queen [i.e. Ruling Queen]; for it was then made a law of the royal house that the eldest child of the King, whether man or woman, should receive the sceptre.

But elsewhere the new law is formulated differently from this. The full¬est and clearest account states in the first place that the}
The
"old law," as it was afterwards called, was not in fact a Númenórean "law", but an inherited custom which circumstances had not yet called in question; and according to that custom the Ruler's eldest son inherited the Sceptre. It was understood that if there were no son the nearest male kinsman of male descent from Elros Tar-Minyatur would be the Heir. Thus if Tar-Meneldur had had no son the Heir would not have been Valandil his nephew (son of his sister Silmarien), but Malantur his cousin (grandson of Tar-Elendil's younger brother Eärendur). But by the "new law" the (eldest) daughter of the Ruler inherited the Sceptre, if he had no son AE-SL-42{ (this being, of course, in contradiction to what is said in The Lord of Rings)}. By the advice of the Council it was added that she was free to refuse.[Footnote to the text: A legitimate male heir, on the other hand, could not refuse; but since a King could always resign the Sceptre, a male heir could in fact immediately resign to his natural heir. He was then himself deemed also to have reigned for at least one year; and this was the case (the only case) with Vardamir, the son of Elros, who did not ascend the throne but gave the Sceptre to his son Amandil.] In such a case, according to the "new law," the heir of the Ruler was the nearest male kinsman whether by male or female descent. Thus if Ancalimë had refused the Sceptre Tar-Aldarion's heir would have been Soronto, the son of his sister Ailinel; and if Ancalimë had resigned the Sceptre or died childless Soronto would likewise have been her heir.
It was also ordained at the instance of the Council that a female heir must resign, if she remained unwed beyond a certain time; and to these provisions Tar-Aldarion added that the King's Heir should not wed save in the Line of Elros, and that any who did so should cease to be eligible, for the Heirship. It is said that this ordinance arose directly from Aldarion's disastrous marriage to Erendis and his reflections upon it; for she was not of the Line of Elros, and had a lesser life-span, and he believed that therein lay the root of all their troubles.
Beyond question these provisions of the "new law" were recorded in such detail because they were to bear closely on the later history of these reigns; but unhappily very little can now be said of it.
At some later date Tar-Aldarion rescinded the law that a Ruling Queen must marry, or resign (and this was certainly due to Ancalimë's reluctance to countenance either alternative); but the marriage of the Heir to another member of the Line of Elros remained the custom ever after.[Footnote to the text: It is said elsewhere that this rule of "royal marriage" was never a matter of law, but it became a custom of pride: "a symptom of the growth of the Shadow, since it only became rigid when the distinc¬tion between the Line of Elros and other families, in life-span, vigour, or ability, had diminished or altogether disappeared."]
At all events, suitors for Ancalimë's hand soon began to appear in Emerië, ... The accounts AE-SL-43{ (which are indeed no more than hasty jottings)} vary as to how her parents responded to this state of affairs. ... and that he did not believe that Erendis was ignorant of her hiding-place.
What is certain is that Ancalimë fell in with a shepherd who was minding flocks in the same region; ... "And how else could any wooer lad you?" he said.
Then Ancalimë was angry, ... because otherwise I deem that we could not wed."
"We could," said Ancalimë, ... whom I prefer above all others."

AE-SL-44 It was however to Hallacar that Ancalimë was wedded in the end. From one version it appears that the persistence of Hallacar in his suit despite her rejection of him, and the urging of the Council that she choose a husband for the quiet of the realm, led to their marriage not many years after their first meeting among the flocks in Emerië. But elsewhere it is said that she remained unmarried so long that her cousin Soronto, relying on the provision of the new law, called upon her to surrender the Heirship, and that she then married Hallacar in order to spite Soronto. In yet another brief notice it is implied that she wedded Hallacar after Aldarion had rescinded the provision, in order to put an end to Soronto's hopes of becoming King if Ancalimë died childless.
However this may be, {the story}/it/ is clear that Ancalimë did not desire love, ... and should be given a farewell of courtesy.
Ancalimë came, attended by all her women, ... But she pursued Hallacar with hatred afterwards.

Of the later years of Tar-Aldarion nothing can now be said, save that he seems to have continued his voyages to Middle-earth, and more than once left Ancalimë as his regent. His last voyage took place about the end of the first millennium of the Second Age AE-SL-45{;}.<moved from below Of Erendis it is said that when old age came upon her, neglected by Ancalimë and in bitter loneliness, she longed once more for Aldarion; and learning that he was gone from Númenor on what proved to be his last voyage but that he was soon expected to return, she left Emerië at last and journeyed unrecognised and unknown to the haven of Rómenna. There, it seems, she met her fate; but only the words "Erendis perished in water in the year 985" remain to suggest how it came to pass.
>{ and in}In the year 1075 Ancalimë became the first Ruling Queen of Númenor. It is told that after the death of Tar-Aldarion in 1098 Tar-Ancalimë neglected all her father's policies and gave no further aid to Gil-galad in Lindon. Her son Anárion, who was afterwards the eighth Ruler of Númenor, first had two daughters. They disliked and feared the Queen, and refused the Heirship, remaining unwed, since the Queen would not in revenge allow them to marry. AE-SL-46{28} Anárion's son Súrion was born the last, and was the ninth Ruler of Númenor.>
Some comments to the editing:
BY-HL-06: I don’t think there is much to comment on here. But if need be we may discuss here the placement of the chapter.

AE-SL-01, AE-SL-02, AE-SL-03, AE-SL-06; AE-SL-10, AE-SL-11, AE-SL-12, AE-SL-14, AE-SL-23, AE-SL-33, AE-SL-34: Footnotes with comments of Christopher Tolkien removed.

AE-SL-04, AE-SL-05, AE-SL-08, AE-SL-13, AE-SL-22: Comments of Christopher Tolkien removed from the footnotes.

AE-SL-07: We could either skip the complete insert, or plainly state that it is the Downfall, we are talking about.

AE-SL-09: I only removed a part of this comment, the genealogical information should be given, I think.

AE-SL-15: We might discuss if this editorial insert might be used or not.

AE-SL-16, AE-SL-17, AE-SL-18, AE-SL-19 & AE-SL-20: I only removed a part of this comment, the information about the languages used in Númenor should be given.

AE-SL-21: I am unsure about this remark. It does not seem to be an Author’s note, but still it might be cept in the parts I left in.

AE-SL-24: We already discussed the parentage of Gil-galad, so here we simply have to use what we decided.

BY-HL-07: I used the headline even so it is not from JRR Tolkien. But I feel that we need some break here, between the full narrative and the summary that we are able to creat for the rest of the tale.

AE-SL-25: This introduction of Christopher Tolkien has of course to go.

AE-SL-26: This story about the Drúedian in King Aldarions household could as well be put into a footnote as described in the introduction, but since this part of the story is already thin a footnote seems unproportional.

AE-SL-27: I told this here in retrospect rather than entering it somewhere in A description of the island of Númenor, where it felt an proportional to talk about the Drúedain and not about the three houses of the Edain.

AE-SL-28: If we want to have this told here, we have to lift it to the main text.

AE-SL-29, AE-SL-35, AE-SL-40, AE-SL-41, AE-SL-42, AE-SL-43: Again Comments of Christopher Tolkien removed.

AE-SL-30 & AE-SL-37: Either we decide on one year or we have to take the time statement out completely.

AE-SL-31 & AE-SL-32: As we have to reconstruct the text, I removed the line breaks here and tried to do my best to get readable sentences.

AE-SL-36: A line break removed.

AE-SL-38: This is too much a comment as to stand in the text.

AE-SL-39 The line break here is to separate the first journey of Tar-Aldarion from this passage about Ancalimë. Here again the first sentence is too much a comment.

AE-SL-44: I did not change anything in this paragraph, but we have to discuss if we really use all three ‘Versions’.

AE-SL-45: I think we have to bind together what we no about Aldarions last voyage and Erendis death.

AE-SL-46: Last but not least we have the story of Anárions daughters. I do not understand the comment in the footnote, but anyhow it is editorial and should there for be removed.

As so many unfinished works, the first part is easy, but I hope I have managed the last part at least bearable.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2018, 03:14 PM   #2
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
ArcusCalion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 393
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
Excellent chapter! Anything to which I do not respond, I agree with.

AE-SL-05: This footnote is actually Christopher's, and feels too commentative. I agree that the information is worth keeping, but I would edit it thus:
Quote:
[Footnote: (Sîr) Angren was the Elvish name of the river Isen. Ras Morthil AE-SL-05{, a name not otherwise found, must be}was the great headland at the end of the northern arm of the Bay of Belfalas, which was also called Andrast (Long Cape). The reference to "the country of Amroth where the Nandor Elves still dwell" {can be taken to imply}shows that the tale of Aldarion and Erendis was written down in Gondor before the departure of the last ship from the haven of the Silvan Elves near Dol Amroth in the year 1981 of the Third Age {; see pp. 252 ff}.]
I moved the marker to the beginning of the footnote. I feel that this version turns Christopher Tolkien's comments into an in-universe narrator's comments (possibly Bilbo, or Findegil the scribe) and works better in the scope of the project.

BL-HL-07: I am not sure this headline fits. This is a very strange heading to put anywhere, since it conveys nothing about the story. It's only used in UT because the further course of the narrative is so unclear, so CT sets it apart with the headline, but in our version, we've made it clearer, so now the heading seems out of place. Are you sure we need it?

AE-SL-43: I use this marker because there is none other at the place. But I wish to refer to this section's use of two alternate stories. Do we wish to give both versions? I personally find it somewhat unorthodox to do so, since this is the only time in the entire project where two alternate courses of truth would be given thus. I personally think we should pick one.

AE-SL-44: I think, just as I said last note, that we should give only one version. I chose the version involving Soronto, since there was hints earlier that he would become important once again before the end, and without these versions, he would not even reenter the story. Therefore I combined both versions involving Soronto thus:
Quote:
It was however to Hallacar that Ancalimë was wedded in the end. AE-SL-44.1 {From one version it appears that the persistence of Hallacar in his suit despite her rejection of him, and the urging of the Council that she choose a husband for the quiet of the realm, led to their marriage not many years after their first meeting among the flocks in Emerië. But elsewhere it is said that she}She remained unmarried so long that her cousin Soronto, relying on the provision of the new law, called upon her to surrender the Heirship, and {that} she then married Hallacar in order to spite Soronto. AE-SL-44.2 {In yet another brief notice it is implied that she wedded Hallacar after Aldarion had rescinded the provision,}She did this also in order to put an end to {Soronto's}his hopes of becoming King if {Ancalimë}she died childless.
AE-SL-44.3 {However this may be, the story is clear that} Ancalimë ...
These were the only ones I felt the need to comment on. Marvelous job Fin! This was a very long work, and the ending was quite difficult to wrangle. The Druedain additions were great! I hadn't thought to include them before!

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 05-09-2018 at 03:23 PM.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2018, 03:06 PM   #3
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,435
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
AE-SL-05: Agreed.

BL-HL-07: I don't think that we need exactly this head line, but I am sure we need some kind of seperating. If this head line is to much of an editorial addition by Christopher Tolkien, we might us a simpel '* * *' as our own addition.

AE-SL-43 & AE-SL-44: If we are to skip one or more of the versions given, we must find a better reason for it than just that we find it better to give only one. If we look at the story about the Elessar, than in that we can argue that one of these is no longer possible due to some change in other parts of the tale of Arda. But what is the arguement that would make one of these versions unusable?

AE-SL-44: I agree that the remark at the beginning of the chapter about Soronto means we have to us him here. To me it is clear that Tolkien first made notes and than wrote the full story as far as it goes. So if Soronto is named in the full story as an important character, he is to be used here. But as your combination showes, that does not make the rest invalid.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2018, 03:28 PM   #4
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
ArcusCalion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 393
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
BY-HL-07: I would prefer the '****' instead of the subheading.

AE-SL-43/44: I was basing it off of the rules of the project:
Quote:
7. Personal aesthetics are not to be used in establishing the actual events in the narrative; all changes and decisions must be justified by the above principles, either:
a) with explicit indication; that is, a text of greater precedence contradicting a text of lesser precedence, or
b) with implicit indication that JRRT almost certainly would have changed/deleted it. But we must base this on some evidence or text from JRRT or CJRT; that is, a text of greater precedence suggesting beyond reasonable doubt a contradiction with a text of lesser precedence, or
c) in cases where two options are given precisely equal validity by the above guidelines, by a majority vote based on personal aesthetics and individual opinions.
My main worry is that this idea of two versions is not built into Tolkien's narrative, it is a function of CT's compilation. Therefore, to give both versions is itself an editorial choice on our part, and I feel we have no real justification for it. If they can be combined then I think that is best, but for 43 I don't think they can be combined. For 44 I think combination works, but if you think we can include the first version as well, then I am open to it. I simply think that giving several alternate versions is not possible within the scope of the project without real justification.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 05-10-2018 at 03:33 PM.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2018, 12:40 PM   #5
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,435
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
BY-HL-07: Okay since I can go with both, it will be '* * *'.

AE-SL-43/44: I can understand your argument, but still I am very reluctant about any simple choice. At least we must try to give a good reason why the one we take is the version of our choice.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2018, 02:55 PM   #6
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
ArcusCalion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 393
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
AE-SL-43/44: Why do we need a reason? The rules are very clear, if there are two competing versions of the same story, and both have equal validity, we choose one based on aesthetics and a consensus of the group.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2018, 11:17 PM   #7
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,435
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Posted by ArcusCalion:
Quote:
Why do we need a reason?
If you would like to get a choice be consens you need to convince the group. And without giving your reason for the choice you prefer that will be hard to reach even in a small group like we are right now.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2018, 03:44 PM   #8
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
ArcusCalion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 393
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
The more I think about it, the less the path forward on this issue is clear to me. We have three possibilities before us, each one a conscious choice on our part:

1) We stick with giving both versions, which was never intended by Tolkien
2) We pick one version, even though there is no way to choose which is better
3) We combine them in some way, which for the first instance is impossible.

In general I am inclined to 3) but this only solves the issue for one of the two complications. The first instance of competing narratives demands either 1) or 2) and I am readily unsure which to choose. As you say, I must give a reason why I prefer one version over the other, but I cannot give any, because they are both equally preferable. Therefore I find myself unable to decide what to do in this case, but lean now more towards your original solution, which is 1). I would appreciate others' thoughts on the matter.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2018, 03:14 PM   #9
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,435
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
I am not that sure that JRR Tolkien never intended to give alternatives in the narative. He goes so far as to tell us that this particular tale survived the down fall because of the special interrest that Elendil had in it. But was Elendils interrest in the end of the tale strong enough? The shadow that he observed is found in the earlier interactions of Aldarion and Erendis.
Anyhow I don't imaging Elendil carrying books in his ship. He is reported as author of the Akallabêth, so I think he rather wrote or let write the story of Aldarion and Erendis anew after the Downfall. And thus a good 2000 years later it is more then possible that with nearly all books of Númenor lost, what was remembered where conflicting versions.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2018, 06:24 PM   #10
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
ArcusCalion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 393
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
that is very true, perhaps leaving both versions in as you have it is fine then.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2018, 08:22 AM   #11
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,435
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Okay that's fine.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:25 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.