Maiar & Valar

[Minyacirith]

Call me stupid, but what is/are Maiar & Valar? Is there a difference? [Have not read Silmarillion in a while]
Wait! there IS a difference. I can't remember it though. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

You shall not pass! ~Gandalf to the Balrog

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: Minyacirith ]

[*Varda*]

Well, *looks in Silmarillion*

About the Valar

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the confines of the world; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Iluvatar and descended into it. But this condition Iluvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it forever, until it is complete, so that they are their life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them Gods. The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar are seven also.

Basically the Valar were made by Iluvatar, and some of them e.g. Manwe, Varda, Yavanna, Aule etc. went into Arda and shaped it and made it what it is.

About the Maiar

With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, or the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers

Some Maia were Olorin (Gandalf), there was also Melian, to name but two.

Hope this helped a bit

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

To sum up (no offense *Varda*) Valar are a higher order.

[Legolas]

The Ainur (the race of Maiar and Valar) are Eru's first creations...they came from parts of his mind, and are gifted in the area of that part's focus. Melkor was an exception...he had a bit of it all. They existed before Arda and helped Eru make Arda through the Music of Arda.

The greatest 14 of these Ainur rule Arda as the Valar. There have been 15 Valar, but Melkor, the "mightiest dweller in Arda, equal to Manwë in power," turned away from the mission of Eru to pursue his own agenda - Tulkas was sent as the fourteenth after his departure.

The Valar are...
Lords (Valar):
Manwë Súlimo - Greatest of the Valar
Tulkas Astaldo - Strongest
Lórien/Irmo - who the garden of Lórien in Valinor is named for (and obviously, the woodland in Middle-earth)
Aulë the Smith - Maker of Middle-earth and the Dwarves
Oromë/Araw - discovered the Eldar
Ulmo - Lord of the Waters
Mandos/Námo - Doomsman of the Valar

Queens (Valier):
Varda Elentári/Elbereth - Queen of the Stars, Manwë's wife
Yavanna Kementári - Queen of the Earth, Aulë's wife
Nienna - 'Lady of Tears', taught Olórin (Gandalf)
Nessa - Tulkas' wife
Vána the Ever-young - Oromë's wife
Vairë - weaves the tales of history
Estë the Gentle - Irmo's wife

The greatest eight are known as the Aratar, said to be equal in reverence:
Manwë, Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna, Aulë, Mandos, Nienna and Oromë.

Among the Valar, there are relations...
Oromë and Nessa are brother/sister.
Mandos, Irmo, and Nienna are brother/brother/sister.
Yavanna and Vána are sisters.

The rest of the Ainur (those not in the 14) are Maiar...some mentioned by Tolkien are Sauron, Gandalf (Olorin), Radagast (Aiwendil), Saruman (Curumo), Alatar, Pallando, Osse, Eonwe, Uinen, Gothmog and Durin's Bane (along with the rest of the Balrogs), Salmar, Tilion and Melian.

The Valar and Maiar live in Valinor in Aman.

[*Varda*]

no offence taken aldagrim [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] i think i went on a bit lol [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Minyacirith]

So you're saying that the Valar are, like, beings that control or direct different ... *looking for a good word-he can't find one* ... stuff about the world? like Ulmo is the ocean and stuff. That makes sense. So.. does that mean Melkor is the same as ... Lucifer? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
(I kind of expected *Varda* to know a little bit about the Valar. Well, I guess so!)

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Minyacirith ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

Although Tolkien didn't like allegories, I think we may safely think of Melkor as Lucifer. They were both the mightiest, and both rebelled, taking others of their kind (angels/maiar) with them. I myself have often made that comparison when thinking of what Melkor has meant for Middle Earth.

[Minyacirith]

Figured so. I can see why Men would think of Varar as gods & goddesses. Ulmo = Poseidon is the most clear. But if they think of themas gods, they haven't seen Manwe.

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Minyacirith ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

That is also why Ar-Pharazon dared rebel against the Valar. He had no idea of their strength.

[obloquy]

Out of curiosity, Daniel, where is it said that Lucifer was the 'mightiest'?

[Ithaeliel]

I just learned something! Thank you Legalos!

[Daniel Telcontar]

I have not been able to find a quote of Lucifer being the mightiest, but Isaiah 14 says something of him, e.g. calls him the son of morning, and I have often heard him being called the mightiest. Also, who would dare rebel against the highest neing if not the second highest being?

I am sorry that I am not being able to give you any useful answer.

[Ruthwen]

Lucifer was God's favourite, so I expect he was the mightiest. I'm not sure, though. I still need to read Paradise Lost.

[Daniel Telcontar]

I also began reading, but for the time being Milton will have to wait. He does write some interesting things do. I think many could learn from reading it.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Lucifer also means somethinglike "bright star" or something like that.

[Naaramare]

Lucifer: "Light Bearer". ^^ Actually an old Italian word, and probably a mistranslation in the Bible (he was Sammael, originally . . . ) but I digress

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Actually, the word Sammael isn't in the Bible either. He was cast down from Heaven though. I think people just said he was the best to try and figure out why he rebeled against God.

[Minyacirith]

The reference to Lucifer being the highest angel is in Ezekiel somewhere. Sorry, I'l have to look it up. Lucifer isn't NAMED, but that's who the passage is referring to.

[obloquy]

Where does it say that he was God's favorite?

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Do you know where in Ezekial?

[obloquy]

I think I know the portion you're talking about in Ezekiel. It's chapter 28, verses 11 through 19. But it appears to be a parallel drawn between Satan and the king of Tyre, and I don't see how it places Satan above all other angels. He is said to be 'the anointed cherub,' but he is not spoken of as 'favorite,' 'mightiest,' or even an archangel. Is this what you were referring to in Ezekiel, Minyacirith?

[merlilot]

If another person's input helps at all, I believe it does say somewhere that Lucifer was the mightiest.

And whether or not JRRT liked allegory, a lot of his work can definitely be seen as such, without stretching. Illúvatar = God. Melkor/Morgoth = Satan/Lucifer/whateveryouwannacallhim. Tulkas = Michael. Etc. Of course, whoever you say corresponds to whoever depends on your vision of both, but whatever. The Valar can also easily be set equal to pagan gods. Ulmo = Poseidon. Varda = Hera...You get it.

[obloquy]

Well, what would help is if someone could show me where the Bible says that. I realize that it seems to be generally agreed upon that Satan was originally the mightiest, most favored of angels; I am skeptical, however, that this concept is contained in the Scriptures.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Just wondering: Does it make any difference to you, if the scripture confirms or not about Lucifer?

[obloquy]

I would very much like to know.

It would also be good to clear up whether this notion which so many people agree upon is actually a Bible teaching.

[Daniel Telcontar]

I agree with that; When so many people agrees upon such a matter, it is a good thing to know if it is stated in the Bible.

We do know that Melkor was the mightiest, if that is any comfort to you, Obloquy.

[obloquy]

That I did know. =)

[Daniel Telcontar]

We must only hope that you are not the only one who knows, because then a lot of people has to start reading the Sil again, from the beginning. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[*Varda*]

obloquy, if you really want to know, I'll try and find a reference somewhere. I kind of feel the same way as you, I want to know if it's actually stated somewhere or just a generally agreed upon theory.

[obloquy]

I really would, Varda. Thank you.

[Daniel Telcontar]

You have no idea what you have just gone into... Seriously, I used a loooong time looking through Ezekiel, and I did not find a passage fit enough. It may sound easy, but you will need luck, Varda. But thanks for doing this, we are becoming more and more interested. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[*Varda*]

Well I've not found any particular references yet (if there are any). But this webpage might be useful, it has lots of bible references to the devil etc. and the answer could be in there somewhere.
http://www.bright.net/%7e1wayonly/satanprofile.html

[obloquy]

Like I said, I think the Ezekiel scripture that was referenced was 28:11-19, but it doesn't shed much light on the issue. I am not incapable of looking for myself, but I would like to know at least where I should be looking. Does anyone know that this notion comes from the Scriptures, or did you all just hear it someplace?

[Daniel Telcontar]

I would not trust that site to much, varda. They have made a mistake. Maybe it is just a typing mistake, but if not...
They say he is the ruler of the kingdom of air, but when you read the passage they use, you will notice that it has been misinterpreted. It says: When he used to follow the ways of the ruler of the kingdom of air (god), not that Satan is the ruler of air.
I do not trust a site that much, if they make such mistakes. But then again, it could be a typing mistake.

[*Varda*]

As yet I've found nothing that says Lucifer was the mightiest. I've found references that speak about his power and how perfect he was
Ezekiel 28 'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty'
You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God;

In man's place, Satan became the temporary ruler of the world. The devil's temptation of Yeshua in the wilderness clearly shows this:

LUKE 4:5 Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish." (NKJV)

There's more info at http://www.aristotle.net/~bhuie/satan.htm

The article seems to show that Satan ruled over the world and was more powerful than all the other angels. Unfortunately the Bible is kind of hard to interpret.

Revelations also has some useful passages, but I don't think anyone will ever find a passage that directly refers to Lucifer as being the mightiest. But i'm interested now, so i might look for a while longer.

Since there seems to be no passage about this (or if there is, it's obscure and hard to find) why does everyone assume Lucifer is the mightiest? What led you to this conclusion?

[Thingol]

I've read Paradise Lost, and in the poem it states that Satan was the mightiest of the angels. Satan rebels after the prophesy of the coming of the son of God. (ie Jesus) Satan ddn't like being second to God, and he couldn’t stand being third. I’ve never read more than Genesis in the Old Testament and I know Paradise Lost isn’t a biblical writing, but Milton was a biblical scholar, and I trust him.

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[*Varda*]

During another internet search i found this.

Isaiah 45:7 and Deuteronomy 30:15, however, pose a serious theological problem for Christians who maintain that God did not create Satan, the angel of evil. According to Christian doctrine, Satan was the highest ranking angel who, through his own act of spiritual defiance and outright disobedience, became the chief adversary and slanderer of God and the embodiment of evil in this world. In Christian theology God never created evil; He is only the author of righteousness and perfection, as you maintained in your question. Therefore, God could never create something as sinister as the devil himself. Rather, Satan’s unyielding wickedness is the result of his own spiritual rebellion.

found on http://www.outreachjudaism.org/satan.html

My main problem with this is that it doesn't actually give any references to any scriptures so there is still no real proof, it's just an opinion.

[obloquy]

but Milton was a biblical scholar, and I trust him.

Be careful with this line of reasoning.

The article seems to show that Satan ruled over the world and was more powerful than all the other angels.

Satan ruling this wicked world doesn't really have any bearing on his pre-rebellion position in Heaven.

[Bêthberry]

Greetings All,

If I could interject with a reference here and later return with a longer post of explanation....

Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion at Princeton, has written on the historical development of the idea of Satan in The Origin of Satan.

She argues, with biblical references, that in the Hebrew Bible, Satan does not appear as he is known in later Christendom after Mark, as the leader of an 'evil empire.' (Her term) The word satan refers in Numbers and Job to a servant of God who plays an adversarial role in human affairs. It does not refer to a particular character, although a satan prods God to test Job. Slowly the word was used to account for the division and destruction in polical and social order in Israel, with the word being invoked to characterize opponents, so that ultimately, Satan became personalized as God's antagonist in the gospels, over whom Christ triumphed.

This is a crude summation. Sorry I'm in a hurry. I will provide some of her references later tonight. Perhaps someone else can find some online links to Pagels' work.

Bethberry

[Daniel Telcontar]

The word Satan means opponent. That is why the devil was given this name, since he is the opponent of God and humans. But Lucifer must have had a high rank, to lead an rebellion. Maybe not the highest, like Michael, but at least not far from him. Otherwise I doubt one third of the angels would have followed him in rebellion.