More Istari limits? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Yaish · 02-11-2002, 06:20 AM

I am almost done with UT and I think I have discovered another limit placed on the Istari while in ME. I think it may also shed some light on the nature of their other limitations too.

In "The Quest of Erebor" Gandalf is relating to Gimli about his role in arranging the quest. He says:
"I do not know the answer, for I am changed since those days, and I am no longer tramelled by the burden of Middle Earth as I was then. In those days I should have answered you with words like those I used to Frodo, only last year in the spring. Only last year! But such measures are meaningless. In that far distant time I said to a small and frightened Hobbit: Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker, and you therefore were meant to bear it. And I might have added: and I was meant to guide you both to those points.
"To do that I used in my waking mind only suc means as were allowed to me, doing what lay to my hand according to such reasons as I had. But what I knew in my heart, or knew before I stepped on these grey shores: that is another matter. Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten, and only to those that dwell there shall I speak more openly."

Of course Maia would have had some forknowledge of the future because of their part in singing the Song. However by this passage I think that when the Maia were sent to ME as Istari, that knowledge was held from then. Gandald may have still had that knowledge as instinct, because indeed he did still seem to be where he needed to be at the right time. However it definately looks as if he was NOT consciously aware of the events and their consequences. Gandalfs introspection seems to indicate that he now sees that his part was in the song, as the will of Illuvatar. I have not heard anywhere else of any mental limits imposed on the Istari, has anyone else?
It also may reveal something about the nature of their other limitations. Since this cannot be a self imposed limit I wonder if the others were as well. I know there have several good arguements for the nature of their limitations being more of an oath, but I think this casts some doubt on that.

Anyone have any opinions?

02-11-2002, 06:20 AM	#1
Yaish Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NC Posts: 20	More Istari limits? I am almost done with UT and I think I have discovered another limit placed on the Istari while in ME. I think it may also shed some light on the nature of their other limitations too. In "The Quest of Erebor" Gandalf is relating to Gimli about his role in arranging the quest. He says: "I do not know the answer, for I am changed since those days, and I am no longer tramelled by the burden of Middle Earth as I was then. In those days I should have answered you with words like those I used to Frodo, only last year in the spring. Only last year! But such measures are meaningless. In that far distant time I said to a small and frightened Hobbit: Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker, and you therefore were meant to bear it. And I might have added: and I was meant to guide you both to those points. "To do that I used in my waking mind only suc means as were allowed to me, doing what lay to my hand according to such reasons as I had. But what I knew in my heart, or knew before I stepped on these grey shores: that is another matter. Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten, and only to those that dwell there shall I speak more openly." Of course Maia would have had some forknowledge of the future because of their part in singing the Song. However by this passage I think that when the Maia were sent to ME as Istari, that knowledge was held from then. Gandald may have still had that knowledge as instinct, because indeed he did still seem to be where he needed to be at the right time. However it definately looks as if he was NOT consciously aware of the events and their consequences. Gandalfs introspection seems to indicate that he now sees that his part was in the song, as the will of Illuvatar. I have not heard anywhere else of any mental limits imposed on the Istari, has anyone else? It also may reveal something about the nature of their other limitations. Since this cannot be a self imposed limit I wonder if the others were as well. I know there have several good arguements for the nature of their limitations being more of an oath, but I think this casts some doubt on that. Anyone have any opinions?