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Old 01-14-2005, 06:57 AM   #1
Findegil
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Ruin of Doriath - The Shadow falls on Brethil

Since we did agree that WH will become the first part of RoD, I will with this thread provide a place for to discuss the changes that this texts needs. The discussion should not begin immediatly since we are still involved in "Ruin of Doriath - Final Part" but it might be good to have the changes out here to muse about them for some time.

First this part of the story brings up some further general changes. I will take up the list with RD-37 since that does occour often in this part:
RD-37
Avranc to Daruin per WH Note 55

RD-38
Gelion to Duin Daer

RD-39
Dorlas to Darlas per WH Note 55

RD-40
Angbor to Halabor per WH Note55

RD-41
Halad to Halbar per WH Note 55

RD-42
Dorlómin to Dor-lómin if we whish for consistency we should make a change but I could not find any reason to force one or the other spelling. Thus I took Dor-lómin since it is more often used in Tolkiens writings.

There are no changes in this part to adjust the storyline (RD-SL-zz) and to call the changes in this RD-EX-zz would not fit the charchter of the changes and it would bring in some higher nummbers before the lower once. Thus I will lable all changes in this section RD-WH-zz.

I will not give the full text here, but any change introduced will be given. I have numbered the § of the text from §1 So ended the tale of Túrin the Hapless, ... to §266 But Húrin stood silent, ... and will reffer to them by giving the number and the first words (as above) and if some changes are done behind a particular § the last words. Any passage need to make the suggested change clear is given.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

The basic Text is that ot The Wanderings of Húrin in the later version. The double crosses (**) that indicat the places where the earlier version differs and the inserted comentray are taken out without indication.

Now to the changes:
RD-WH-01: This is based on Note 57 to WH:
Quote:
On the amanuensis typescript my father pencilled, beneath The Wanderings of Hurin: 'I The Shadow Falls on Brethil'. At the beginning of his discussion of the story in text C (p. 266) he said of Asgorn and his men that 'their coming to Brethil is needed to "cast the shadow" by arousing fear and hatred in the heart of Harathor.' It may be therefore that the subheading The Shadow Falls on Brethil was intended to refer only to the first part of the story of Hurin in Brethil. On the other hand, he introduced no other sub-headings into the body of the text, and it seems equally possible that he meant this as the title of the whole story, 'II' to be the next stage of Hurin's 'wanderings', Hurin in Nargothrond.
I would follow the second suggestion. Thus the heading at the begining of this chapter would be:
Quote:
Of the Ruin of Doriath
The Wanderings of Húrin
RD-WH-01 <WH, Note 57 The Shadow Falls on Brethil>


§1 So ended the tale of Túrin the Hapless, ...
In addition we then would intorduce further sub-headings in the subchapter The Wanderings of Húrin:
Quote:
§1b (§268) {Húrin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of {Glomund}[Glaurung] and his very memory.} RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this ... that no one had told Húrin of their coming.>


RD-EX-02.5 <WH, Note 57 Hurin in Nargothrond>


§1d (§269) RD-EX-02.7<WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth ...
and
Quote:
§9 (§280) TT Now his heart was bitter against ... and evil has followed its finders for ever.>


RD-EX-11.5 <WH, Note 57 Húrin in Doriath>


§10a (§281) RD-SL-06 <TT Yet in the end that laden host ...
Maybe it would be better to discuss these changes in an other context in a seperat chapterstructer discussion for all the later Beleriandic part of the 'Translation from the Elvish'. Anyway it isn't really a problem to edit them in or out, and if they are to be taken in, this is the place to discuss their exact placment.

RD-WH-02 incooperating the text from the continuation of The Grey Annals:
Quote:
§5 Then little though Húrin trusted aught that Morgoth said or did, knowing that he was without pity, he took his freedom and went forth in grief, embittered by the deceits of the Dark Lord. Twenty-eight years Húrin was captive in Angband RD-WH-02 {…} <WH, Continuation of Grey Annals, and at his release was in his sixtieth year, ...
...
§18 'RD-WH-07 WH, Note 19{Tôl}[Tûl] acharn!' said Húrin. 'Vengeance comes. I am not the last of the Edain, whether I fare ill or well.' And with that he departed, and left the land of Hithlum.>
RD-WH-03:
Quote:
§5 Then little though Húrin trusted aught that Morgoth said or did, knowing that he was without pity, he took his freedom and went forth in grief, embittered by the deceits of the Dark Lord. Twenty-eight years Húrin was captive in Angband RD-WH-02 {…} <WH, Continuation of Grey Annals, and at his release was in his sixtieth year, but great strength was in him still, in spite of the weight of his grief, for it suited the purpose of Morgoth that this should be so RD-WH-03 <WH, Note 19 and the needs of his body had been well served to this end>. He was sent under guard as far as the east-marches of Hithlum, and there he was let go free.
RD-WH-04 - RD-WH-06:
Quote:
§10 For I have no purpose now, unless I find chance to RD-WH-04 WH, Note 19 {avenge the wrongs of my son} [hear more news of my kin, or to avenge their wrongs, if I may].'

§11 RD-WH-05 WH, Note 19 {Asgron}[Asgon] and six other desperate men were willing to go with him; and Húrin led them to the halls of Lorgan, who still called himself the Lord of Hithlum. Lorgan heard of their coming and was afraid, and he gathered other chieftains and their men in his house for defence. But Húrin coming to the gates looked on the RD-WH-06 WH, Note 19 {Eastrons}[Easterlings] in scorn.
RD-WH-07:
Quote:
§18 'RD-WH-07 WH, Note 19{Tôl}[Tûl] acharn!' said Húrin. 'Vengeance comes. I am not the last of ...
RD-WH-08:
Quote:
§169 Silence fell. But when Hardang ... as was {Dorlas}[Darlas] his father before him. RD-WH-08 WH, Note 46 [(]And dark tales were whispered concerning {Dorlas}[Darlas] for though naught was known for certain, he was found slain far from the battle with Glaurung, and the reddened sword that lay by him had been the sword of Brandir. [)]
RD-WH-09:
Quote:
§245 'But, lord, if she came no further, but finding the RD-WH-09, WH, Note 55{Stone}[Talbor] there sat in grief and despair by the grave of her son, as I can believe, then...'
RD-WH-10:
Quote:
§247 'Then, Húrin Hadorion, out of the darkness of your woe know this! My lord, so great a grief, and so great a horror of the things that there came to pass is upon us that no man and no woman since the setting up of the RD-WH-10 WH, Note 55{Stone}[Talbor] has ever again gone nigh to that place. Nay! the Lord Orome himself might sit by that stone with all his hunt about him, and we should not know. Not unless he blew his great horn, and even that summons we should refuse!'
RD-WH-11:
Quote:
§252 Therefore at length they set off in silence on the path that led down along the falling torrent of Celebros. Wellnigh eight leagues was that road, and darkness fell ere they came to Nen Girith, and there they passed the night as they could. And the next morning they went on down the steep way to the Field of Burning, and they found the body of Morwen at the foot of the RD-WH-11, WH, Note 55{Standing Stone}[Talbor]. Then they looked upon her in pity and wonder; for it seemed to them that they beheld a great queen whose dignity neither age nor beggary nor all the woe of the world had taken from her.
RD-WH-12 & RD-WH-13:
Quote:
§254 But Húrin said: 'Nay, Nienor is not here, but it is fitter that she should lie here near her son than with any strangers. So she would have chosen.' Therefore they made a grave for Morwen above Cabed Naeramarth on the west side of the RD-WH-12, WH, Note 55{Stone}[Talbor]; and when the earth was laid upon her they carved on the RD-WH-13, WH, Note 55{Stone}[Talbor]: Here lies also Morwen Eðelwen, while some sang in the old tongue the laments that long ago had been made for those of their people who had fallen on the March far beyond the Mountains.
In view of the change of "Standing Stone" or "Stone" -> "Talbor" it might be noted that I left in
Quote:
§70 But Húrin passed on, and at evening of the sixth day he came at last to the place of the burning of Glaurung, and saw the tall stone standing near the brink of Cabed Naeramarth.
unchanged since "stone" was here not capitalised. And in
Quote:
§212 'Ashamed ye may be. But this is not my charge. I do not ask that any in this land should match the son of Húrin in valour. But if I forgive those griefs, shall I forgive this? Hear me, Men of Brethil! There lies by the Standing Stone that you raised an old beggar-woman. Long she sat in your land, without fire, without food, without pity. Now she is dead. Dead. She was Morwen my wife. Morwen Eðelwen, the lady elven-fair who bore Túrin the slayer of Glaurung. She is dead.
because I think Húrin can not know the name before he hears it from Manthor in §245.

That's all I could find in these part of the text that needed a change. All changes are open for discussions and please comment on any needed change I have missed.

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Old 02-01-2005, 11:04 AM   #2
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RD-WH-08

Quote:
§169 Silence fell. But when Hardang ... as was {Dorlas}[Darlas] his father before him. RD-WH-08 WH, Note 46 [(]And dark tales were whispered concerning {Dorlas}[Darlas] for though naught was known for certain, he was found slain far from the battle with Glaurung, and the reddened sword that lay by him had been the sword of Brandir. [)]
This is not what I understood the note to mean; Christopher says that the sentence was "bracketed", "presumably implying doubt about its inclusion". I do not think that Tolkien's intention was to put it in parentheses, but rather to note that it might be deleted. But since he didn't actually strike it out, I would retain it.

RD-WH-09-13

If we replace every instance of Stone or Standing Stone with Talbor, then we never tell the reader what the Talbor is. Or will we perhaps name it that when it is erected at the end of the Narn?
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Old 02-02-2005, 03:37 AM   #3
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RD-WH-08:
I did also understand the doubt about the inclusion of the passage and I agree that since it is not strucout we should retain it. But would I thought that the parenthes were in order to represent some of what underlies. Do you think we should include it with out the parenthes?

RD-WH-09 - RD-WH-13:
Yes, I think that naming the Sstone Talbor when it is erected at the end of the Narn is what is suggested in the notes to WH.

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Old 02-11-2005, 10:33 PM   #4
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I have looked at the changes, and I'm ok with them. I don't see anything out of the ordinary.
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Old 02-12-2005, 01:08 PM   #5
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So Of the Ruin of Doriath seems done for the moment. I will produce a text with all the updated changes for the privat forum.
If nobody speaks up against it it will be a single text; not divided in the parts we took for the discussion.

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Old 02-13-2005, 10:54 PM   #6
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I saw our final product Of the Ruin of Doriath and I have to congratulate you Findegil. I only noticed small things like there was no dieresis in Manwe.

Also this:
Quote:
RD-EX-22<TN Now<editorial brigde when Húrin and his Band had departed from Menegroth> came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this gold, for my heart tells me it is {trebly} [doubly] cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath, and cursed by RD-EX-23 {thy lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those they slew}; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’
I think that you may have missed and kept trebly.
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Old 11-13-2007, 12:38 PM   #7
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I hope the right place to post this comment is here:

Quote:
RD-WH-01

§ 2 Unhappy was the lot of Húrin. For all that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice Húrin knew also; but lies were mingled with the truth, and aught that was good was hidden or distorted. He that sees through the eyes of Morgoth, willing or unwilling, sees all things crooked.
Before the text you proposed as § 2 I would have retained this part which tell us of the fate of Morwen before the events of her death.

Quote:
[WotJ pg. 258]

It is said by some that on a time Morwen came in her witless wandering to the graven stone, and knowing that her children were dead, though she understood not in what way their tale had ended, she sat beside the stone awaiting death; and there Húrin found her at last, as is after told. Less happy than hers was the lot of Húrin. For all that Morgoth knew....
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Old 11-17-2007, 11:22 PM   #8
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This passages was struck from the typescript and replaced by what we have in our version right now.

Of course we would be able to reuse it for our Version, but I don't see why we should do so. This fortelling distroyes some of the suprise effect of the tale.

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Old 11-18-2007, 05:11 PM   #9
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here my next comment:

Quote:
Your version:

§268 RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under {Avranc}[Daruin] and made ready to depart, <WH Note 54 Isolated page end and others there were who {despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgothand {wish}wished to fly south> and they joined Húrin.>
here I would have taken just the first part with the intentions of using the second later...

Quote:
My version:

But some misliked this and would not serve under Daruin and made ready to depart, and they joined Húrin.
Quote:
Your version:

§269 (§1d) RD-EX-02.7<WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods <RD-EX-03 editorial addition to make a the term wood-men understandable south of Taeglin> and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).>
I know the sentence is not originally refering to the woodmen but I think it could be used here to make te text more fluent...

Quote:
My version:

But now Húrin seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance seemed to have heartened him, and he and walked now strongly. Thus passing into the woods south of Taeglin, he gathered the last fugitives of the Woodmen; a kin of the folk of Brethil who, having no homes or lands of their own, despaired now of defending themselves from the growing strength of Morgoth and wished to flee further south.
I'll wait for your opinions

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Old 11-19-2007, 11:59 PM   #10
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this isn't really a reply and i'm sure everyone has their own opinion but here's how i did it.

After departing Húrin gathered a few men who, fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth as well as having no homes or lands of their own, were willing to go with him. Húrin seemed to pick up strength and youth. Vengeance seemed to have heartened him, and he walked now strongly. At the Taiglin crossing they gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil) and fell in with Asgon, who had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon greeted Húrin and though glad that Hardang had been punished he was angered that no one had told Húrin of their coming. As they went on they chose Asgorn for captain, but he treated Húrin as lord, and he ever deferred to him asking, ‘Whither shall we go?’

Now Húrin elected to cross over Teiglin and passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and he saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and knew what had befallen there. At length he came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before him; and he stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, leaning upon his staff.
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Old 11-24-2007, 07:14 AM   #11
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Emrys, such a use of a sentence applied to some quite different people is out of scope for our project. Your text reads nice, and you used mostly word from Tolkien, but you did reuse them in a way that changed the meaning to an extant that is not acceptable within the rules that this project gave it self.

Aaron, I am sorry, but I could not bring myself to the task of figuring out your text. It would take me a study of hours to find all possible sources for the phrases you used. Could you please provide us with a bit more of information. Especially I would appreciate if you could mark the phrases put in by you editorially.

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P.S.: Some were in the past of this project is the record of a discussion between Lindil and Aiwendil. Lindil would have liked a stylistic smoothing of the text while Aiwendil was against this. The group decision was to make first a text not stylistically smoothed. If at the end of the project enough motivation would be left in the members willing to produce such a smooth text, they would then start from the point of a complete version.
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Old 11-24-2007, 01:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post

Aaron, I am sorry, but I could not bring myself to the task of figuring out your text. It would take me a study of hours to find all possible sources for the phrases you used. Could you please provide us with a bit more of information. Especially I would appreciate if you could mark the phrases put in by you editorially.

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Findegil
Sure, I can probably do that but it might be a few days or so. I did that a long time ago and didn't bother to mark all of my decisions, because I did it for myself and didn't realize there was a project out there like this one. Also I don't mind if you don't feel like figuring it out or not i wouldn't want to do that either if i were you. I mainly posted it just in case someone was curious, not because I wanted to have critical feed back. But thank you for your interest anyway.
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Old 11-24-2007, 09:32 PM   #13
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got to little sooner

got to it a little sooner because you made me start thinking about how i actually did it

all notes are from note 54 at the end of the WH

Bold and Underlined words are mine. most of them are changes in tense.

After departing Húrin gathered a few men who, fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth as well as having no homes or lands of their own, were willing to go with him. Húrin seemed to pick up strength and youth. Vengeance seemed to have heartened him, and he walked now strongly. At the Taiglin crossing they gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil) and fell in with Asgon, who had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon greeted Húrin and though glad that Hardang had been punished he was angered that no one had told Húrin of their coming. As they went on they chose Asgorn for captain, but he treated Húrin as lord, and he ever deferred to him asking, ‘Whither shall we go?’

Now Húrin elected to cross over Teiglin and passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and he saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and knew what had befallen there. At length he came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before him; and he stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, leaning upon his staff.

Here it must be told that after the departure of Glaurung Mîm the Petty-Dwarf had found his way to Nargothrond, and crept within the ruined halls; and he took possession of them, and sat there fingering the gold and the gems, letting them run ever through his hands, for none came nigh to despoil him, from dread of the spirit of Glaurung and his very memory for the terror of the drake lived longer than he. But now one had come, and stood upon the threshold; and Mîm came forth, and demanded, "What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?"


Bold and Underlined words are mine.

After departing Húrin gathered a few men who, fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth as well as having no homes or lands of their own, were willing to go with him.

The sentence above was derived the note below:

A few men fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - are willing to go with Hurin.



**********

Húrin seemed to pick up strength and youth. Vengeance seemed to have heartened him, and he walked now strongly.

The sentence above was derived the note below:

They depart - and fall in [sic] But now Hurin seems to pick up strength and youth - vengeance seems to have heartened him, and he [ ] and walks now
strongly.

**********

At the Taiglin crossing they gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil) and fell in with Asgon, who had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and was now venturing back into the land to seek him.

The sentence above was derived the from two notes below:

At the Taiglin crossing they fall in with Asgon, who has heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Hurin's coming, and are now venturing back into the land to seek him.

They pass into the woods and gather the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).

**********

Asgon greeted Húrin and though glad that Hardang had been punished he was angered that no one had told Húrin of their coming.

The sentence above was derived the note below:

Asgon greets him - and is glad that Harathor has been punished. Angered that no one had told Hurin of their coming.

**********

As they went on they chose Asgorn for captain, but he treated Húrin as lord, and he ever deferred to him asking, ‘Whither shall we go?’

The sentence above was derived from the two notes below:

Asgorn they choose for captain, but he treats Hurin as lord, and does as he will[s]. Whither shall we go? They must [? know] a place of refuge.

They go on and gather fugitive 'wood-men'. They elect Asgon captain but he ever defers to Hurin. Whither to go?

**********

Now Húrin elected to cross over Teiglin and passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and he saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and knew what had befallen there. At length he came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before him; and he stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, leaning upon his staff.


The placement of the paragraph above from the Silmarillion was derived from the two notes below, and “elected” was added to it concerning the second note below:

They go towards Nargothrond

Hurin elects to go to Nargothrond


**********
the text that follows is simply the Silmarillion text from “Of the Ruin of Doriath” starting with:

Here it must be told that after the departure of Glaurung Mîm the Petty-Dwarf had found his way to Nargothrond, and crept within the ruined halls; and he took possession of them, and sat there fingering the gold and the gems, letting them run ever through his hands, for none came nigh to despoil him, from dread of the spirit of Glaurung and his very memory for the terror of the drake lived longer than he.


And ending with:

Then he turned away, and passed out from the Thousand Caves, and all that saw him fell back before his face; and none sought to withstand his going, nor did any know whither he went. But it is said that Húrin would not live thereafter, being bereft of all purpose and desire, and cast himself at last into the western sea; and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men


Here are the notes:

A few men fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further
from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - are
willing to go with Hurin. They depart - and fall in [sic] But
now Hurin seems to pick up strength and youth - vengeance
seems to have heartened him, and he [ ] and walks now
strongly. They pass into the woods and gather the last fugitives
of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).
Asgorn they choose for captain, but he treats Hurin as lord,
and does as he will[s]. Whither shall we go? They must
[? know] a place of refuge. They go towards Nargothrond

Hurin must depart. He gathers a few men who despair now of defending
Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth [and] wish to fly
south. At the Taiglin crossing they fall in with Asgon, who has
heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Hurin's
coming, and are now venturing back into the land to seek him.
Asgon greets him - and is glad that Harathor has been
punished. Angered that no one had told Hurin of their coming.
They go on and gather fugitive 'wood-men'. They elect
Asgon captain but he ever defers to Hurin. Whither to go?
Hurin elects to go to Nargothrond. Why?

Last edited by Aaront596; 11-24-2007 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 11-25-2007, 03:06 PM   #14
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Somehow I had lost Fingedil reply.

Anyway I understand your point...here is the next:

Quote:
Your Version

§270 (§1e) RD-EX-04 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn}[Asgon] they
{choose}chose for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}willed. /And he asked therefore Húrin:/ ‘Whither shall we go? {They}/We/ must {[? }know{]} a place of refuge.’ /And/ Húrin {elects}elected to go to Nargothrond.>

§271 (§1f) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, and came south with a following of a hundred or more. But why it was that he went to Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him.

Some have said that maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case; while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide. Certainly Morgoth fenced men in Hithlum, as he was able, and little news came to them of events in other lands; but so soon as Húrin passed southward or met any wanderers in the wild he would hear tidings of the battle in the ravine of Taeglin. More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-05.5<WH /And of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund.>

...continue...leaning upon his staff

Quote:
My Version is briefer:

Asgon was chosen as their captain, but he treated Húrin as lord, and did as he willed. And he asked therefore Húrin: ‘Whither shall we go? We must find a place of refuge.’ And Húrin elected to go to Nargothrond; but why it was that he chose Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him.

On a time therefore Húrin and his band came at last to the caves of Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of Glaurung and his very memory. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, and came south with a following of a hundred or more.

...continue as yours...leaning upon his staff
The difference in the two text is very slight, but in mine I retained most part of the Tale text.

A greater difference is that I have chosen to delete any references which shows that Hurin doesn't know of the death of Glaurung cause for sure, in both versions, he as already visited Brethil. I think that the sentence was inteded to be inserted in a previous version in which Hurin visited brethil after Nargothrond.
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Old 11-26-2007, 06:25 AM   #15
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Posted by Emrys:
Quote:
A greater difference is that I have chosen to delete any references which shows that Hurin doesn't know of the death of Glaurung cause for sure, in both versions, he as already visited Brethil. I think that the sentence was inteded to be inserted in a previous version in which Hurin visited brethil after Nargothrond.
True, but as the text stands it is already in the text denied that Húrin could think Glaurung would be still alive. So what we have here is just a thinking on paper, which clears things upfor the reader.

But it is a just critique of our editing and would like to here other about that point.

But what do you think of the passage from about Húrin as an admirer of Felagund?

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Old 11-27-2007, 03:04 AM   #16
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While I think that in my opinion this first part maybe could stand:

Quote:
Some have said that maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case;
This second part seems to suggest that Hùrin has not yet visited Brethil, which doesn't sound right to me: Has Húrin heard tidings of the ravine of Taeglin from wanderers in the wild and not in the time he spent in Brethil?

Quote:
while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide. Certainly Morgoth fenced men in Hithlum, as he was able, and little news came to them of events in other lands; but so soon as Húrin passed southward or met any wanderers in the wild he would hear tidings of the battle in the ravine of Taeglin.
This last part I think could stand as well. (nothing against Felagund)

Quote:
More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-05.5<WH /And of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund.>
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:59 AM   #17
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From Emrys version:
Quote:
But now Húrin seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance seemed to have heartened him, and he and walked now strongly. Thus passing into the woods south of Taeglin, he gathered the last fugitives of the Woodmen; a kin of the folk of Brethil who, having no homes or lands of their own, despaired now of defending themselves from the growing strength of Morgoth and wished to flee further south.
Coming back to this I must say that after more consideration I think it is wrong to us this sentence for the Woodmen. What we knew about them is that they tended homes and clearings (land) of their own.

Nonetheless I agree that this sentence about the people having no homes or lands of thier own being more ready to join Húrin has some apeal. But in my view it does fit some inhabitants of Brethil much better then the Wooodmen from south of Taeglin. In sofare Aarons version is mor to my liking. What is about such a editing:
Quote:
§267 (§1a) RD-EX-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the {madness [written above: }wrath{]} of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and {Avranc}[Daruin] were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose {Avranc}[Daruin] to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but {[?? }he wielded no{]} such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the {[?}open{]} woods - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>
§268 (§1b) {Húrin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of Glomund and his very memory.}RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under {Avranc}[Daruin] and made ready to depart, and they joined Húrin.>RD-EX-01.5<WH Note 54 Isolated page end & text 2 A few men fearing the end of Brethil <{despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth>, desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - {are}were/ also/ willing to go with Hurin.> RD-EX-02 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}was glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. And he was angered {Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.>
For smooth reading I add a clean text
Quote:
§267 (§1a) Now it is said that those who sided with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the wrath of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and Daruin were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose Daruin to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but he wielded no such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the open woods - each minding his own houselands and little clearings and their confederation was loosened.
§268 (§1b) But some misliked this and would not serve under Daruin and made ready to depart, and they joined Húrin. A few men fearing the end of Brethil despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth, desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - were also willing to go with Hurin. At the Taeglin crossing they fell in with Asgon, who had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon greeted him - and was glad that Hardang had been punished. And he was angered that no one had told Húrin of their coming.
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P.S.: Aiwendil, Maedhros, please comment at least at this, since it seems we come to the point were we start editing the text we three once agreed upon.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:02 AM   #18
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just a note...

It seems to me that you have omitted this:

Quote:
§269 (§1d) RD-EX-02.7<WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods <RD-EX-03 editorial addition to make a the term wood-men understandable south of Taeglin> and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).>
This part should be inserted before the meeting with Asgon, isn't it?

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Old 11-29-2007, 06:29 AM   #19
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Indeed that would from my next §, as it does in our version as you have it.

Why do you think it should come before the meeting with Asgon?
Húrin meet Asgon at the crossing of Taeglin, so how could Húrin before that gather any of the wood-men that lived south of Taeglin? Or do you consider that the wood-men all left their former homes at the time of Túrins activity with the Outlaws and that Húrin did not gather them from south of Taeglin but from within Brethil?
If that would be the case than "having no homes or lands of their own" would realy fit them very well.

Really that is case to be considered: Did all the wood-men left their homes and did Húrin gather them from Brethil? Or did he gather the last remants that still lived south of Taeglin?

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Old 11-29-2007, 07:27 AM   #20
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Yes, I think that the point is this one: Who are the Woodmen?

1) people of the folk of haleth living in the forest (without homes or lands...)

2) outlaws living in the forerst:

a) north of taeglin

b) south of taeglin

I think best of the first choice; don't think there should be any more outlaws south of taeglin after the departure of the wolf-men.

Don't know for sure what Tolkien intended with that note.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:48 AM   #21
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Thinking further on it and re-reading what is said in the Narn I agree that taken in combination it is most probable that Húrin did not gather any woodmen south of Taeglin. Rather he would find followers by woodmean tha had come to Brethil and lingered their 'having no homes or lands of their own'.

If we can agree on that, this is what our version shuold become:
Quote:
§267 (§1a) RD-EX-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the {madness [written above: }wrath{]} of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and {Avranc}[Daruin] were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose {Avranc}[Daruin] to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but {[?? }he wielded no{]} such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the {[?}open{]} woods - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>
§268 (§1b) {Húrin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of Glomund and his very memory.}RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under {Avranc}[Daruin] and made ready to depart, <WH Note 54 Isolated page end and others there were who {despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth and {wish}wished to fly south> and they joined Húrin.> RD-EX-02.7b<WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods <RD-EX-03 and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the {wood-men}[woodmen] (the kin of the folk of Brethil).>RD-EX-03.1<WH, Note 54, Text 2 A few men fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - {are}were willing to go with Hurin.>

RD-EX-02.5 <WH, Note 57 Húrin in Nargothrond>

§269 (§1d) RD-EX-02 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}was glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. And he was angered {Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.>
§270 (§1e) RD-EX-04 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn}[Asgon] they {choose}chose for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}willed. /And he asked therefore Húrin:/ ‘Whither shall we go? {They}/We/ must {[? }know{]} a place of refuge.’ /And/ Húrin {elects}elected to go to Nargothrond.>
And again smooth text for a better reading:
Quote:
Now it is said that those who sided with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the wrath of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and Daruin were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose Daruin to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but he wielded no such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the open woods - each minding his own houselands and little clearings and their confederation was loosened.
But some misliked this and would not serve under Daruin and made ready to depart, and others there were who despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth and wished to fly south and they joined Húrin. But now Húrin seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance seemed to have heartened him, and he walked now strongly. They passed into the woods and gathered the last fugitives of the woodmen (the kin of the folk of Brethil). A few men fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - were willing to go with Hurin.

Húrin in Nargothrond

At the Taeglin crossing they fell in with Asgon, who had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon greeted him - and was glad that Hardang had been punished. And he was angered that no one had told Húrin of their coming.
Asgon they chose for captain, but he treated Húrin as lord, and did as he willed. And he asked therefore Húrin: ‘Whither shall we go? We must know a place of refuge.’ And Húrin elected to go to Nargothrond.
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