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Old 12-24-2002, 03:52 PM   #1
Man-of-the-Wold
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The Eye **Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

I see where CRRT is savaged for this, in terms of some ending that ain't right. I'm only reaching the end of HoME IV, and know of the debate about how the Dwarves inexplicably entered Doriath, but should not have been able to do so, because of the Girdle of Melian.

But didn't she depart immediate at Thingol's murder, or is it not unreasonable to assume the idea of traitors among the Elves of Doriath, per severa earlier iterations. This is in earlier stories, but sometimes earlier stuff if not formally rejected was only omitted from CRRT's manuscript, and can be cut and pasted back in, such that you rely not solely an late HoME, ala FoG even from the all but discarded BoLT.


mod note [ I removed 'How' as the first word in the title of the thread as I would rather the forum be responsible for posing the question than stating that it was so. -lindil

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

I have once again re-named this thread to allow and encourage pre-group project work on the Ruin of Doriath. Sorry for the double takeover Man of the Wold [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]

[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 12-30-2002, 07:39 AM   #2
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If I follow you correctly, Man of the Wold, then you are proposing using BolT and HoME 4 to create our own Ruin of Doriath. This may well happen and has been mentioned offhandedly. We simply have not reached a place where we are actively brainstorming for the Ruin of Doriath.

Indeed the Fall of Gondolin has proved so complex that we will almost certainly look for some easy chapters for a while after it!

also I know of no one here who thinks CJRT butchered the Silm chapter in question. I think he did quite well with the resources at hand and I for one am not one to rule using it as a basis for our chapter.

He himself expresses reservations at having gone so far as to create up a couple of scenes from whole cloth, but to my mind and ear they ring true.

The War of the Jewels [HoME XI] - pt 3 ch V [The Tale of Years] is needed to understand the full complexity of the situation JRRT left in the form of outlines for the Doriath chapter.

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 01-04-2003, 06:16 PM   #3
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I was not suggesting but rather inquiring into the nature of the controversy.

Thanks, I recognize that it is not so one-sided. Perhaps, just improve on CRT's work based on what is in the Grey Annals and what not, which I have yet to read directly.
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Old 01-08-2003, 02:16 PM   #4
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I too, liked C.T's version of Doriath. Is there any infprmation on the sacking, apart form what's in Bolt 2 and The War of the Jewel's? Mor eimportantly the Tolkien intend for the Ent's to aid Beren's assualt against the Nogrodian Dwarves?
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Old 01-09-2003, 02:24 PM   #5
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Other than what's in XI and the hopelessly outdated version found in II, the only other accounts of the sacking of Doriath are probably the very compressed versions found in the Sketch of the Mythology and the Quenta Noldorinwa. As for the Ents, the evidence for their inclusion is from one of the Letters, though I don't recall the number.
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Old 01-09-2003, 02:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
More importantly the Tolkien intend for the Ent's to aid Beren's assualt against the Nogrodian Dwarves?
As aiwendil answered, yes he did.

Just to let those who do not have [or have not read HoME 11] get some idea of the final picture I will try and provide a summary of what we are left with.

CJRT collected all that could salvaged from JRRT's work [including scavenging the letters!]for the concluding sections in the Silm and placed them in the "tale of Years" section of HoME XI wherein he lists the long string of sketches for the resolution of the LQS [Later Quenta Silmarillion]. It is from this that CJRT drew much [but not all] of the inspiration for his version off the Ruin of Doriath. What JRRT did not postulate and CJRT [ with Guy Kay] invented to reconcile imbedded contradictions, was Thingol's murder by the Dwarves already in Menegroth.

This explained how the Dwarves were able to enter the Girdle, which other wise was left unresolved by JRRT. He also removed Hurin's companions [ who are very much intact and likely to be involved somehow at least up to Hurin's recovering the nauglamir from Menegroth] and their bringing a hard to mengroth, CJRT reduced the hoard of Nargothrond/Glaurang to just the Nauglamir.

I think the main thing we can do for this section is to mesh [ or rather preface] the Wanderings of Hurin into the Ruin as far as the texts will allow. It could be that bits of BoLT 2 will aid this. I have not really perused the problem in detail, leaving it till FOG is complete [at the earliest], other options are to peice together a RoD from JRRT's sketches, the Q30, sketch and BoLT. A truly daunting hodge podge and possibly fruitless undertaking.

CJRT's version has many merits:
- it removes a contradiction which JRRT never satisfactorily resolved.
- It reads extremely well [imo], condensed though it is and is extremely plausible.
- it is already written [!] and was for over a decade accepted as THE Ruin of Doriath, and still is for most folks who have not read HoME 2, 4 or 11.

Personally, interesting topic though it is I probably will not be adding any more to the conversation till the group get's there.

That being said though, we might as well make this an official **Ruin of Doriath speculation thread** if others however, want to continue exploring the possiblilities.

[ January 09, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 01-10-2003, 12:08 PM   #7
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I think that the whole Ruin of Doriath mess may be profitably boiled down to two fundamental problems:

1. The conflict between "The Wanderings of Hurin" and all previous narratives; particularly, the point of transition from 'Wanderings' as the latest text to the 'Quenta' as the latest text (I believe CRT refers to this as a 'chasm' or some such). Tied into this problem is the whole section from Hurin in Nargothrond to Hurin in Doriath (the unwritten sections of 'Wanderings'). Christopher's solution was to more or less abandon 'Wanderings' and to rewrite the Q30 version. My inclination here is rather to keep 'Wanderings' and to adjust the Q30 and QS77 to fit, though of course that's much easier said than done.

2. The problem of the invasion of Doriath. As JRRT noted, but, infuriatingly, did not solve, a hostile army cannot invade Doriath as long as the Girdle of Melian is in place. The only indication from JRRT is that it must be contrived that Thingol at some point leaves Doriath and is slain. Christopher decided that this was an unworkable projected revision, and made up his own story. But the story that he invented elegantly and completely solves the problem. There is a good case for using his story (and it is allowed by our principles, if we deem all extant versions by JRRT unworkable).

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]
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Old 01-14-2003, 07:23 AM   #8
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Ai Aiwendil, you are a good cook as it turned out. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

You had found exactly the two problems that this group most must solve for the project. In the first cases it seem to me that your choice is between a hard brake from full narrative to short summary or the writing of new material (wish is near the boundary of fan-fic) or the abandonment of parts of the full narrative (writing a summary?).

In the second it is more the question to take CRRT "fan-fic" wish is indicated as not agreeing to JRRT last ideas or writing your own "fan-fic" out of the small hints that JRRT left.

It will be very interesting to see were you end up with it.

In the moment my choice would be the hard brake in the first case and Thingol killed outside Doriath in the second. But lets see what the discussion will bring up.

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Old 08-23-2003, 11:58 AM   #9
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I have been perusing the Ruin of Doriath, now that it seems that Fall of Gondolin is in need of opinions to move foward.
Originally posted by Aiwendil
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The problem of the invasion of Doriath. As JRRT noted, but, infuriatingly, did not solve, a hostile army cannot invade Doriath as long as the Girdle of Melian is in place. The only indication from JRRT is that it must be contrived that Thingol at some point leaves Doriath and is slain. Christopher decided that this was an unworkable projected revision, and made up his own story. But the story that he invented elegantly and completely solves the problem. There is a good case for using his story (and it is allowed by our principles, if we deem all extant versions by JRRT unworkable).
I was reading the Wanderings, Tale and the Quenta yesterday, and it doesn't seem to me impossible a reconcilation between the accounts.
What I have in mind is the following:
Use as Aiwnedil suggested, the Wanderings of Húrin as far as it can takes us, and then joined it with the Tale of the Nauglafing.
1. The Tale of the Nauglafing is of course very outdated. I would propose to revise it using the Quenta in Home 4.

2. How to deal with Thingol slaying? I would propose that we follow the Quenta to make that Thingol was slained when he was outside of Doriath, when the Dwarvish Army was coming. It solves the problem of the Girdle and leaves Menegroth opens for an assault.

3. Húrin. I think that this is the biggest problem in the whole Ruin of Doriath. Unfortunately we do not have, like in the Fall of Gondolin, a part where Húrin actually reaches Doriath, like Tuor did in Unfinished Tales.
Using the Wanderings of Húrin, if we follow the story, it ends with Húrin leaving Brethil with no company and it is supposed that he will be going to Nargothrond to seek the treasure and then go to Menegroth. As Aiwendil posted, that is the gap that is very troublesome to us. Using the Wanderings, we can construct a narrative from Húrin leaving Angband to Húrin gaining some outlaws and heading towards Nargothrond. If we joined that with the last paragraphs of the Tale of Turambar, we have in some way a narrative with no gaps.
It doesn't look as impossible as I once thought.

[ August 23, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]
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Old 08-23-2003, 07:34 PM   #10
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I have given this a lot of thought as well, and I think that in general my conclusions are the same as Maedhros's.

I agree that the best course with regard to the death of Thingol is to have him go to war beyond the borders and be slain. This is, at any rate, the latest wish of Tolkien on the matter (though obviously it was only a very rough idea). Christopher's version is, as I've said before, an elegant and well-contrived solution to the difficulty; but I'd rather stay as close as possible to JRRT's plot.

Actually, we do have the scene in Lost Tales where Hurin enters Doriath. It is, if I recall correctly, placed at the end of the Tale of Turin rather than in the Tale of the Nauglafring. Of course, it is very different from the later versions - yet I think a lot of the writing might be salvaged and used to fill out our version.

What I think is the real difficult point here is the fate of Hurin's outlaws. I do not like Christopher's solution here - simply to drop the outlaws entirely and reduce the treasure brought by Hurin down to the Nauglamir. It seems clear from 'Wanderings' that the outlaws were to be retained. On the other hand, I completely agree with Christopher that in the Q30 version, where the outlaws die in quarrels on the road, the gesture is completely ruined by Hurin's having to have Thingol's people bear the treasure into Menegroth and then cast it at his feet.

A case could certainly be made for retaining the Q30 version, however inferior it is. But another solution would be this: retain the outlaws and have them go with Hurin to Doriath and cast the treasure at Thingol's feet, as in the old Tale. Hurin leaves in anger. But then, whereas in the Tale the outlaws fight with Thingol's people, we could have them simply forswear the treasure and leave Thingol's halls in peace.

The weakness with such a course, naturally, is the completely fabricated plot point of the outlaws leaving in peace. But it has the virtue of retaining the role of the outlaws (which, by all indications, was never questioned by Tolkien) and avoiding the extreme awkwardness of the Q30 version.

I would also certainly eliminate two points that seem to have been fabricated for the 77. First, return to the earlier story where the Nauglamir was wrought by the Dwarves out of the treasure of Nargothrond, rather than being an ancient artifact that lay in the hoard. Second, remove the moment where Melian lifts the spell of Morgoth from Hurin, since (unless I'm forgetting something) there is no indication that this was to occur.
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Old 08-24-2003, 09:01 AM   #11
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I agree with the propouse to take 'Húrins wanderings' and try to build the tow missing chapters out of HoME II, HoME IV and Sil '77 material.
I will try to add something to Aiwendils plot: When I remeber rightly, it was JRR Tolkien him self how noted that it would ruine the gesture, when Húrin must go to Doriath and ask for help in the tarnspprot of the treasure. So I think that we must retain the outlaws at least into Doriath.
But if the outlaws are to go in peace from Menegroth, than I think they would best leave it in company with Húrin. Since of Húrins further aktions is nothing said, other than his death in the western see, you could left thier fate dubious as well. (I could writ a nice fan-fic about Húrins death, after finding Tours spear in Vinyamar and thier with recongince that he had brought ruin to Gondolin as well - but that doesn't belong here.) On the other hand we could also use Mîms crouse and the quarells on the road as solution for thier fate and only move it to the time after they left Menegroth. But that is agian a very riscy course to go.

Posted by Aiwendil:
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I would also certainly eliminate two points that seem to have been fabricated for the 77. First, return to the earlier story where the Nauglamir was wrought by the Dwarves out of the treasure of Nargothrond, rather than being an ancient artifact that lay in the hoard. Second, remove the moment where Melian lifts the spell of Morgoth from Húrin, since (unless I'm forgetting something) there is no indication that this was to occur.
I agree with Aiwendil in these points. As fare as I know we have no indications in any text written by JRR Tolkien that he would have changed his plot in respect to these points, so I don't think they should be used, even if they could be used in accordance with rules of the project.

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Old 08-24-2003, 11:36 AM   #12
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Originally posted by Aiwendil
Quote:
Actually, we do have the scene in Lost Tales where Hurin enters Doriath. It is, if I recall correctly, placed at the end of the Tale of Turin rather than in the Tale of the Nauglafring. Of course, it is very different from the later versions - yet I think a lot of the writing might be salvaged and used to fill out our version.
You are right of course, and that is what I meant by stating that we could use the last few chapters of The Tale of Turambar.
Originally posted by Aiwnedil
Quote:
What I think is the real difficult point here is the fate of Hurin's outlaws. I do not like Christopher's solution here - simply to drop the outlaws entirely and reduce the treasure brought by Hurin down to the Nauglamir. It seems clear from 'Wanderings' that the outlaws were to be retained. On the other hand, I completely agree with Christopher that in the Q30 version, where the outlaws die in quarrels on the road, the gesture is completely ruined by Hurin's having to have Thingol's people bear the treasure into Menegroth and then cast it at his feet.
I agree with that.
Quote:
I would also certainly eliminate two points that seem to have been fabricated for the 77. First, return to the earlier story where the Nauglamir was wrought by the Dwarves out of the treasure of Nargothrond, rather than being an ancient artifact that lay in the hoard. Second, remove the moment where Melian lifts the spell of Morgoth from Hurin, since (unless I'm forgetting something) there is no indication that this was to occur.
This too.
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Old 08-24-2003, 03:30 PM   #13
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Originally posted by Aiwendil
Quote:
But then, whereas in the Tale the outlaws fight with Thingol's people, we could have them simply forswear the treasure and leave Thingol's halls in peace.

The weakness with such a course, naturally, is the completely fabricated plot point of the outlaws leaving in peace. But it has the virtue of retaining the role of the outlaws (which, by all indications, was never questioned by Tolkien) and avoiding the extreme awkwardness of the Q30 version.
Now that I have worked a little with the version in the private forum, I think it best that we leave the slaying of the outlaws in Menegroth. I think that it leaves the curse of the gold of Glaurung a factor in that part of the story, and the advantage of it is that it is already included in the Tale of the Nauflagring so no fabrication necessary. I personally do not see any overriding reason as to make the outlaws leave Doriath willingly do you?
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Old 08-24-2003, 10:36 PM   #14
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I have now posted my Revised version of the Ruin of Doriath in the private forum. These were made in mind in trying to capture as most of the intended Tolkien ideas as possible. I have used basically the Tale of the Nauglafring and the Published Silmarillion in my versions.

I would have liked to have used more the QS30 but I think that because of it's size, it is not too useful, only as guidelines to the story.

I made, as in the Quenta, that the messenger who comes to Beren and Lúthien to be Melian and not an unnamed one as in the QS77 or Huan in the Tale.

Beren, as it is stated in the Letters 247:
Quote:
But I can foresee one action that they took, not without a bearing on The L.R. It was in Ossiriand, a forest country, secret and mysterious before the west feet of the Ered Luin, that Beren and Lúthien dwelt for a while after Beren's return from the Dead (I p. 206). Beren did not show himself among mortals again, except once. He intercepted a dwarf-army that had descended from the mountains, sacked the realm of Doriath and slain King Thingol, Lúthien's father, carrying off a great booty, including Thingol's necklace upon which hung the Silmaril. There was a battle about a ford across one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir, and the Silmaril was recovered, and so came down to Dior Beren's son, and to Elwing Dior's daughter and Earendel her husband (father of Elros and Elrond). It seems clear that Beren, who had no army, received the aid of the Ents – and that would not make for love between Ents and Dwarves.
That is the reason as to why in my revision, I deleted the references to the green Elves that helped Beren in the QS77.

I used some parts of the Tale, such as the detail of the fight between Beren and Naglandur because I felt that it would add more to the story.

I retained the part that while Lúthien wearing the Silmaril, the sons of Fëanor would not assail them, because of the reference of The Tale of Years D1
Quote:
Curufin and Celegorm, hearing of the sack of Menegroth, ambushed the Dwarves at the Fords of Ascar as they sought to carry off the Dragon-gold to the mountains. The Dwarves were defeated with great loss, but they cast the gold into the river, which was therefore after named Rathlóriel. Great was the anger of the sons of Fëanor to discover that the Silmaril was not with the Dwarves; but they dared not to assail Lúthien. Dior goes to Doriath and endeavours to recover the realm of Thingol.
It is interesting that this note says that both Curufin and Celegorm attacked the dwarves but this was rejected in the letter that i quoted above.

Lastly, I'm sure that my versions are full of errors, but it is my hope that they can be used as a guide to this section.
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Old 08-25-2003, 07:54 AM   #15
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Maedhros, I am sure that you had done a lot of hard and nice work for that version in the private forum. But I think that it wouldn't be good to start the work on the basis of a text hidden from public.
If you do that you will restrict the attendance of any discussion to the members of the project. That this forum is open for public shows that the project has as jet ever tried to do the work in public and take in as many thoughts of no-members (like me) as possible. As far as I have understood the project policy, only the ultimate refinements of the text had been done in the private forum. As it seemed to me, this was done only because of copyright restrictions against the posting of big parts of the actual text of the source books in an open forum.

Especially in such an early stage of the development it would be nice to have the parts of the text discussed in front anybody. I could take the source -texts and try to do the same work you had done again and guess from your posts how do you composed the text. But how many no-members would do that? And it would be inventing the wheel for the 1001 time.

I know that what I ask for is again a lot of work, since you have to take one of the source-texts and make it the basis text from which you than develop be deletions and addition (with source information). But it will be rewarded by a greater number of minds thinking about it and contribute to the development of the final version. In the moment that seems highly recommended since the number of active members of the project seems to be very small indeed.

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Old 08-25-2003, 09:15 AM   #16
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Findegil wrote:
Quote:
When I remeber rightly, it was JRR Tolkien him self how noted that it would ruine the gesture, when Húrin must go to Doriath and ask for help in the tarnspprot of the treasure. So I think that we must retain the outlaws at least into Doriath.
Was it JRRT? I was under the impression it was Christopher.

Quote:
But if the outlaws are to go in peace from Menegroth, than I think they would best leave it in company with Húrin. Since of Húrins further aktions is nothing said, other than his death in the western see, you could left thier fate dubious as well.
But it seems likely that had they gone with him, they would have prevented him from slaying himself. In all versions of the story, Hurin goes forth alone, and slays himself alone. To me this seems to be a critical point.

Quote:
On the other hand we could also use Mîms crouse and the quarells on the road as solution for thier fate and only move it to the time after they left Menegroth. But that is agian a very riscy course to go.
It is a nice solution; but you are right - it's risky.

Quote:
Now that I have worked a little with the version in the private forum, I think it best that we leave the slaying of the outlaws in Menegroth. I think that it leaves the curse of the gold of Glaurung a factor in that part of the story, and the advantage of it is that it is already included in the Tale of the Nauflagring so no fabrication necessary. I personally do not see any overriding reason as to make the outlaws leave Doriath willingly do you?
The trouble is that the fight in Thingol's halls is one of those features of the Lost Tales that never appears again. I certainly see your point - if there's no pressing reason to reject it, it would be preferrable to use it and not invent anything. But it seems to be one of the 'primitive' aspects of the Lost Tales - Elves becoming greedy and savage at the slightest provocation, Thingol's hall being overrun with brawling and slaughter time after time. Moreover, it seems quite plausible that the main objective of the story in Q30 was to eliminate this fight in Menegroth.

I realize, of course, that having the outlaws leave willingly is no closer to being valid than is the fight.

Perhaps the best way to go would be (if we could manage it) to be ambiguous about the fate of the outlaws - "of the fate of Hurin's band no tale tells" or something of the sort.

Quote:
That is the reason as to why in my revision, I deleted the references to the green Elves that helped Beren in the QS77.
An argument could certainly be made that the aid of the Green-elves was not rejected. Beren had no 'army' but that is not to say that he had no aid whatsoever outside the Ents. But I suppose that in eliminating mention of the Green-elves we are not explicitly saying that they were not there.

Findegil wrote:

Quote:
Maedhros, I am sure that you had done a lot of hard and nice work for that version in the private forum. But I think that it wouldn't be good to start the work on the basis of a text hidden from public.
I think this is certianly correct. The actual editing should be done, as with the Fall of Gondolin, in the public forum.
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Old 08-25-2003, 09:18 AM   #17
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Originally posted by Findegil
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Maedhros, I am sure that you had done a lot of hard and nice work for that version in the private forum. But I think that it wouldn't be good to start the work on the basis of a text hidden from public.
If you do that you will restrict the attendance of any discussion to the members of the project. That this forum is open for public shows that the project has as jet ever tried to do the work in public and take in as many thoughts of no-members (like me) as possible. As far as I have understood the project policy, only the ultimate refinements of the text had been done in the private forum. As it seemed to me, this was done only because of copyright restrictions against the posting of big parts of the actual text of the source books in an open forum.
I posted those versions in the private forum because of the copyright restrictions. I have no problem in posting them in the Public forum, so that all can see them. If Aiwendil and lindil are ok with that perhaps one of them can move them to the public forum. I agree that with more opinions on the subject the better it would be.
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Old 08-25-2003, 08:06 PM   #18
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For the Green-elf situation, couldn't we just mention a small band of them with Beren? That way, both their aid is mentioned, and the fact that they were a sort of organized band, under Beren's leadership.
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Old 08-25-2003, 10:49 PM   #19
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Question

Reasons for the Fight of the Outlaws in Menegroth

From the Quenta
Quote:
And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road;
From the Tale of the Nauglafring
Quote:
Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk did as they were bid, and yet more, for some went into the hoard twice and thrice, and angry cries were raised in that hall. Then would the woodland Elves hinder them of their thieving, and a great dissension arose, so that though the king would stay them none heeded him. Then did those outlaws being fierce and fearless folk draw swords and deal blows about them, so that soon there was a great fight even upon the steps of the high-seat of the king. Doughty were those outlaws and great wielders of sword and axe from their warfare with Orcs, so that many were slain ere the king, seeing that peace and pardon might no longer be, summoned a host of his warriors, and those outlaws being wildered with the stronger magics of the king and confused in the dark ways of the halls of Thingol were all slain fighting bitterly; but the king's hall ran with gore, and the gold that lay before his throne,' scattered and spurned by trampling feet, was drenched with blood. Thus did the curse of Mîm the Dwarf begin its course; and yet another sorrow sown by the Noldor of old in Valinor was come to fruit.
As we can see, in both cases, the outlaws die by cause of the curse of the Gold. If we keep their faith uncertain, we move IMO, away from the core of the Story. And it is very probable that the outlaws would fight for the treasure that they had just brought from Nargothrond. Of course one could argue too that outlaws would avoid a fight when they are outnumbered.

Of course we have CT comments from the Tale of Years
Quote:
There were very evident problems with the old story. Had he ever turned to it again, my father would undoubtedly have found some solution other than that in the Quenta to the question, How was the treasure of Nargothrond brought to Doriath? There, the curse that Mîm laid upon the gold at his death 'came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.' As I said in IV.188, 'it ruins the gesture, if Húrin must get the king himself to send for the gold with which he is then to be humiliated'. It seems to me most likely (but this is mere speculation) that my father would have reintroduced the outlaws from the old Tales (11.113-15,222-3) as the bearers of the treasure (though not the fierce battle between them and the Elves of the Thousand Caves): in the scrappy writings at the end of The Wanderings of Húrin Asgon and his companions reappear after the disaster in Brethil and go with Húrin to Nargothrond (pp. 306-7).
Now CT believes that as we have done, we have reintroduced the outlaws in the tale, but if they were not killed either in Nargothrond or while bearing the treausure, would they have left the halls of Thingol without a fight. Would they then, have been free of the curse of Mîm.

I have searched in the Tale of Years for some indication about the outlaws but I have not found anyone in there.

[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]
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Old 08-26-2003, 03:48 AM   #20
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Aiwendil wrote:
Quote:
Was it JRRT? I was under the impression it was Christopher.
I have to look that up. What I wrote was the impression left in my memory and could be wrong. At least it could be to specific - the indication that JRR Tolkien was not satisfaid by the version of Q30 could have been a large X on the text or a "that won't do". But even that is not sure. I will search for it.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
But it seems likely that had they gone with him, they would have prevented him from slaying himself. In all versions of the story, Hurin goes forth alone, and slays himself alone. To me this seems to be a critical point.
That is clearly a weak spot. But I think it is more probable that Húrin left them a second time, as he had done to find Gondolin, other than the outlaws by thier own forswear the treasure.
Let's try that out:
Quote:
Then were {Urin's}[Húrin's] words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: "What meanest thou, child of Men, and wherefore upbraidest thou me?" Long did I foster thy son and forgave him the evil of his deeds, and afterward thy wife I succoured, giving way against my counsel to her wild desires. {Melko}[Morgoth] it is that hates thee and not I. Yet what is it to me -- and wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalie? Lo! in {Palisor}[Cúivenen /?spellling/] my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone, 0 {Urin}[Húrin], for {Melko}[Morgoth] hath bewitched thee, and take thy riches with thee" -- but he forebore to slay or to bind {Urin}[Húrin] in spells, remembering his ancient valiance in the Eldar's cause.
Then Urin departed[ with his man], but would not touch the gold, {and stricken
in years he reached Hisilome and died among Men, but}and some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men./Q30/[ But] his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.
I toke the main body of the text out of the Tale of The Nauglafring. Unless changes of names and the addition of Húrins fate, I only inserted "with his man" in the last paragraph.
I think that would work, to let the fate of Asgon and his man dubious, but I see Meadhros point:
Quote:
As we can see, in both cases, the outlaws die by cause of the curse of the Gold. If we keep their faith uncertain, we move IMO, away from the core of the Story.
So I will try out my own risky plot:
In the Quote abvoe we will leave out "with his man". (In my view on this spot should be a chapter brake , and for that I added Thingol in the next sentence, but that's not now the point.)
Quote:
{'Behold then,' said Ailios, 'in}[In] great grief gazed {the }king [Thingol] upon {Urin}[Húrin] as he left the hall, and he was weary for the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth] that thus deceived all hearts; yet tells the tale that so potent were the spells that {Mim the fatherless}[Mîm] had woven about that hoard that, even as it lay upon the floor of the king's halls shining strangely in the light of the torches that burnt there, already were all who looked upon it touched by its subtle evil.
Now therefore did those of {Urin's}[Húrin's] band murmur, and one said to the king: "Lo, lord, our captain {Urin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain."
Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol], for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: "Nay then, know ye not that this gold belongs to the kindred of the Elves in common, for the {Rodothlim}[people of Finarfin/I couldn't find any better phrase to specifie the Elves of Nargothrond/] who won it from the earth long time ago are no more, and no one has especial claim' to so much as a handful save only {Urin}[Húrin] by reason of his son Turin, who slew the Worm, the robber of the Elves; yet Turin is dead and {Urin}[Húrin] will have none of it; and Turin was my man."
At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, until the king said: "Get ye now gone, and seek not 0 foolish ones to quarrel with the Elves of the forest, lest death or the dread enchantments of {Valinor}[the Eldar] find you in the woods. Neither revile ye the name of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] their king, for I will reward you richly enough for your travail and the bringing of the gold. Let each one now approach and take what he may grasp with either hand, and then depart in peace."
Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk did as they were bid, and yet more, for some went into the hoard twice and thrice, and angry cries were raised in that hall. Then would the woodland Elves hinder them of their thieving, and a great dissension arose, so that {though }the king {would}[had to] stay them{ none heeded him. ...}/Here the risky part beginns and the rest of the fight in the hall has to go./[. So the outlaws left Menegroth, with a part of the treasure but soon/editorial addition/] the curse [of Mîm] came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Hurin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road/Q30/[.]
The addition I had to make with out source is beyond what you normaly call "minimal change", so it was much less heavy than I had feared for. As we already thought, it is a risky course. I could have cut more of the scene and aviode the change of Thingol stopping the dissension. But I like the working of crouse upon Elves in the hall.
In addition I like to mention, that I can't think that a man like Asgon took part in the events in Thingols hall. It is clearly not Asgon how speaks to the king of Húrin as a "old and mad" man. That words sound more like Ragnir. The young man how is the opponent of Asgon in the conversations when the band is searching Húrin. It would be very nice to find a way, to make Asgons fate dubious, but in the moment I can't see any solution within the rules of the project. (In my privat view he is the comunicater of parts of the Narn.)

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Old 08-26-2003, 08:57 AM   #21
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Finwe wrote:

Quote:
For the Green-elf situation, couldn't we just mention a small band of them with Beren? That way, both their aid is mentioned, and the fact that they were a sort of organized band, under Beren's leadership.
This is one possibility - that is, to assume that there were Green-elves but that they were not numerous enough to be an "army". Personally, I would go this way; I don't think that the reference in Letters is sufficient evidence that the Green-elves were dropped.

Quote:
As we can see, in both cases, the outlaws die by cause of the curse of the Gold.
Yes. This is a good point.

Maedhros wrote:

Quote:
If we keep their faith uncertain, we move IMO, away from the core of the Story.
But if their fate is made sufficiently ambiguous, who is to say whether they escaped the curse or not?

We are engaged in a sort of surgery upon the narrative. No matter what we do, we cannot preserve every nuance, every subtlety of the Lost Tales. It is, of course, preferrable to preserve what we can; but there must be some casualties, and I fear that the specifics of the working of the curse upon the outlaws may be one of them.

Quote:
Now CT believes that as we have done, we have reintroduced the outlaws in the tale, but if they were not killed either in Nargothrond or while bearing the treausure, would they have left the halls of Thingol without a fight. Would they then, have been free of the curse of Mîm.
Possibly. I see no reason to think that the curse of Mim is absolutely inevitable. But if we do not specify the fate of the outlaws, then we retain the possibility that the curse did somehow find them.

I think Christopher is right that, had "Wanderings" gotten as far as Doriath, the fight in the caves would not have reappeared.

Findegil wrote:

Quote:
I have to look that up. What I wrote was the impression left in my memory and could be wrong. At least it could be to specific - the indication that JRR Tolkien was not satisfaid by the version of Q30 could have been a large X on the text or a "that won't do". But even that is not sure. I will search for it.
Okay. In any case, I think that whoever said it is right; it does ruin the gesture and almost certainly it would have been altered in a more ample account.

Quote:
That is clearly a weak spot. But I think it is more probable that Húrin left them a second time, as he had done to find Gondolin, other than the outlaws by thier own forswear the treasure.
So you think that the outlaws were more likely to give up the treasure in order to follow Hurin than to give it up afterward? I can see the logic there, though I don't think I fully agree.

Quote:
The addition I had to make with out source is beyond what you normaly call "minimal change", so it was much less heavy than I had feared for. As we already thought, it is a risky course. I could have cut more of the scene and aviode the change of Thingol stopping the dissension. But I like the working of crouse upon Elves in the hall.
As I said before, it's a nice solution. But if they are to die in quarrels after leaving Menegroth, then what can be the cause of those quarrels? They could no longer be fighting over the gold. And in that sense, it is not really Mim's curse that kills them; elsewhere the curse always manifests itself as a desire for the gold which leads to ruin.

Also, as we already acknowledged, the change is risky - perhaps a bit too risky. Remember, how severe an editorial change is doesn't always correspond simply to how many words were altered. In terms of plot, this is a major change with little textual support.

Quote:
In addition I like to mention, that I can't think that a man like Asgon took part in the events in Thingols hall. It is clearly not Asgon how speaks to the king of Húrin as a "old and mad" man. That words sound more like Ragnir. The young man how is the opponent of Asgon in the conversations when the band is searching Húrin.
This is one of the chief reasons that I think the old fight would have been changed. It is almost impossible to picture Asgon acting this way, curse or no curse. He is portrayed as far too reasonable a figure. It is also very difficult to picture the later Elves of Doriath falling so easily into savagery. The later conception of the Sindar is very different from that presented here. In the old tale, Doriath was a far more primitive, naturalistic place.

So I really think that the fight in Menegroth is out of place in the more mature Silmarillion.

Quote:
It would be very nice to find a way, to make Asgons fate dubious, but in the moment I can't see any solution within the rules of the project. (In my privat view he is the comunicater of parts of the Narn.)
I have also speculated that some of those outlaws might have made their way to the havens and been the source for parts of the Narn.

It would, I think, be far preferrable to leave the fate of the outlaws uncertain. There are actually several ways to do this; the problem that I see with these ways is that none is quite uncertain enough to cover the wide range of reasonable fates. I will give this matter some thought.
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Old 08-26-2003, 11:51 AM   #22
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Quote:
Aiwendil posted
Quote:
What I think is the real difficult point here is the fate of Hurin's outlaws. I do not like Christopher's solution here - simply to drop the outlaws entirely and reduce the treasure brought by Hurin down to the Nauglamir. It seems clear from 'Wanderings' that the outlaws were to be retained.
I am of the opinion, that as Aiwendil suggests we re-introduce the outlaws with minimal words, and leave as vauge as possible the contents other than the Nauglimir that they take to Doriath.

Asgon in particular needs to be shownnamed in his continued appearances in the Narn, the Wanderings and finall the Ruin of Doriath.

There fate should I think remain unknown.

I am in favor of keeping Thingols death as per the 77. Not pure tolkien, but I do not wish to take too lightly CJRT's general conservatism and insight, and long pondering on the matter.

I think had he suggested it to his father [he seems to have been virtually unconnected with his fathers M-E writings in his last years though] JRRT most likely would have taken it as a basis to work from. It is not only 'an elegant solution' as Aiwendil has said, it has the ring of the Legendarium to it.

All that is my opinion of course, but it is admissable as an option according to our Principles.
[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 08-26-2003, 04:51 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Aiwendil
Quote:
This is one possibility - that is, to assume that there were Green-elves but that they were not numerous enough to be an "army". Personally, I would go this way; I don't think that the reference in Letters is sufficient evidence that the Green-elves were dropped.
I think I'm ok with Finwë´s idea in here.

From the Notes in the End of the Tale of Years
Quote:
There were very evident problems with the old story. Had he ever turned to it again, my father would undoubtedly have found some solution other than that in the Quenta to the question, How was the treasure of Nargothrond brought to Doriath? There, the curse that Mîm laid upon the gold at his death 'came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.' As I said in IV.188, 'it ruins the gesture, if Húrin must get the king himself to send for the gold with which he is then to be humiliated'. It seems to me most likely (but this is mere speculation) that my father would have reintroduced the outlaws from the old Tales (11.113-15,222-3) as the bearers of the treasure (though not the fierce battle between them and the Elves of the Thousand Caves): in the scrappy writings at the end of The Wanderings of Húrin Asgon and his companions reappear after the disaster in Brethil and go with Húrin to Nargothrond (pp. 306-7).
I think that we can all safely agree that the reintroduction of the outlaws acompanying Húrin to Nargothrond is necessary in our version.

Regarding the battle of the Outlaws in Menegroth, CT seems that it would have been abandoned. I think that CT instincts are better than mine in this so I would defer to him. But notice the interesting fact that CT states that the fight in Menegroth, not outside it.
We could:
1. Leave their faith ambiguous as Aiwendil suggests.
2. We could use Findegil option of using the Quenta version to deal with the fate of the outlaws.

Personally, I like Findegil’s option better because, we know from both the Tale and the Quenta that the outlaws die and that they were affected by the curse of Mîm. That being said, that does not mean however that in our versión we would state explicitly that all of the outlaws were killed, leaving open the idea that one of them could be Dírhaval or one who instructed some of the tales to him.

Quote:
How he would have treated Thingol's behaviour towards the Dwarves is impossible to say. That story was only once told fully, in the Tale of the Nauglafring, in which the conduct of Tinwelint (precursor of Thingol) was wholly at variance with the later conception of the king (see II.245-6). In the Sketch no more is said of the matter than that the Dwarves were 'driven away without payment', while in the Quenta 'Thingol... scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls'. There seems to be no clue or hint in later writing (in The Tale of Years the same bare phrase is used in all the versions: Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves'), unless one is seen in the words quoted from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn on p. 353: Celeborn in his view of the destruction of Doriath ignored Morgoth's part in it 'and Thingol's own faults'.
I think personally that this is the most troublesome part in the whole affair. What would be the interaction between Thingol and the dwarves? The idea that I was thinking of is in a was following the Tale in that the dwarves of Nogrod felt that it could be said that Mîm’s treasure should belong to the dwarven race, because the folk of Mîm were the original dwellers of Nargothrond. But that is just an idea that I’m playing with.

Quote:
In The Tale of Years my father seems not to have considered the problem of the passage of the Dwarvish host into Doriath despite the Girdle of Melian, but in writing the word 'cannot' against the D version (p. 352) he showed that he regarded the story he had outlined as impossible, for that reason. In another place he sketched a possible solution (ibid.): 'Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.'
That is exactly what I’m doing. By following the Tale, we could use that while Thingol went for the Hunt, they somehow drifted outside the protection of the girdle and there were ambushed by the dwarves.

Quote:
In the story that appears in The Silmarillion the outlaws who went with Húrin to Nargothrond were removed, as also was the curse of Mîm; and the only treasure that Húrin took from Nargothrond was the Nauglamîr - which was here supposed to have been made by Dwarves for Finrod Felagund, and to have been the most prized by him of all the hoard of Nargothrond. Húrin was represented as being at last freed from the delusions inspired by Morgoth in his encounter with Melian in Menegroth. The Dwarves who set the Silmaril in the Nauglamîr were already in Menegroth engaged on other works, and it was they who slew Thingol; at that time Melian's power was with-drawn from Neldoreth and Region, and she vanished out of Middle-earth, leaving Doriath unprotected. The ambush and destruction of the Dwarves at Sarn Athrad was given again to Beren and the Green Elves (following my father's letter of 1963 quoted on p. 353, where however he said that 'Beren had no army'), and from the same source the Ents, 'Shepherds of the Trees', were introduced.
This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him. It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of The Fall of Gondolin, to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative. It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.
I think that while CT Ruin of Doriath has a lot of merit and it is a beautiful work, we should try and be more faithful to the ideas of JRRT.
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Old 08-26-2003, 09:09 PM   #24
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Lindil wrote:

Quote:
Asgon in particular needs to be shownnamed in his continued appearances in the Narn, the Wanderings and finall the Ruin of Doriath.
Agreed.

Quote:
There fate should I think remain unknown.
I think this is the safest option by far.

Quote:
I am in favor of keeping Thingols death as per the 77. Not pure tolkien, but I do not wish to take too lightly CJRT's general conservatism and insight, and long pondering on the matter.
But the Ruin of Doriath devised by Christopher Tolkien is probably his least conservative bit of writing, and the one that he most came to regret after even longer pondering. As Maedhros points out, he states quite clearly in HoMe XI that he regrets the invention of the story.

Quote:
I think personally that this is the most troublesome part in the whole affair. What would be the interaction between Thingol and the dwarves?
I would say that the words of Q30 should be taken as authoritative - "Thingol... scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls". If no better can be done, we can simply use the words of the Quenta.

Quote:
That is exactly what I’m doing. By following the Tale, we could use that while Thingol went for the Hunt, they somehow drifted outside the protection of the girdle and there were ambushed by the dwarves.
I'm not sure that the hunt ought to be retained. The note indicates that Thingol was "lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders". Going on a hunt and accidentally straying beyond the Girdle does not quite fit this description.

Why not simply say that, hearing of the Dwarf army, he decides to go to war and he rides forth beyond the borders?
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Old 08-26-2003, 10:39 PM   #25
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Originally posted by Aiwendil
Quote:
I would say that the words of Q30 should be taken as authoritative - "Thingol... scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls". If no better can be done, we can simply use the words of the Quenta.
I know that that is stated in the Quenta but, does a proud elf, like Thingol would go back on his word?
Would that fit with a later Silmarillion?
Quote:
Why not simply say that, hearing of the Dwarf army, he decides to go to war and he rides forth beyond the borders?
What if they were in the hunt and they heard of the dwarf army and decided to go to war?
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Old 08-27-2003, 08:05 AM   #26
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I know that that is stated in the Quenta but, does a proud elf, like Thingol would go back on his word?
Would that fit with a later Silmarillion?
Well, we don't know the details of the argument; it's possible that Thingol felt justified in scanting the promised reward. Thingol is, and remains in the later writings, a proud and sometimes short-sighted character. I could well imagine him finding some justification for refusing payment to the Dwarves - perhaps he suspects their treachery and means to punish their insolence, or something like that. Of course we need not give any such justification; what matters is that justification of this kind is conceivable. Moreover, the Q30 (while not exactly a mature work) is significantly more mature than the Lost Tales, and therein we find the last account of the quarrel outside of vague references to it. I would rather try to follow it than the Lost Tales.

Quote:
What if they were in the hunt and they heard of the dwarf army and decided to go to war?
I suppose that could work - it has the virtue, anyway, of explaining why the king would ride forth so rashly. But I'm still hesitant. The hunt, along with the rest of the story in the Tale of the Nauglafring, was rejected and replaced with various new stories. Now we find those new stories unsatisfactory - but does that mean that elements like the hunt can be reinstated?
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Old 08-27-2003, 01:19 PM   #27
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Aiwendil posted
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But the Ruin of Doriath devised by Christopher Tolkien is probably his least conservative bit of writing, and the one that he most came to regret after even longer pondering. As Maedhros points out, he states quite clearly in HoMe XI that he regrets the invention of the story.
Yes, I brought up the 'conservative' bit to underscore his general reluctance to invent.

He has also stated his doubts about trying to create a single official 'Silmarillion' at all.

He felt he had to [on both counts], and did, and I do not think any of the proposals so far mentioned [the alterations of the death of Thingol that is, not additions from Wanderings of Hurin and Bolt and Q30].

The fact that he changed his mind does not alter what I consider 3 very important facts;
  • CJRT did write a revised, integrative and coherent Ruin of Doriath which around the world in all but the most esoteric Tolkien discussion circles [ such as this one] is THE version. It has gained through collective experience a degree [by no means absolute, I admit] of co-creative reality that I am loath to tamper with unless the end result is equally or better satisfactory.
  • Our 'Principles' allow us to consider it for usage.
  • He regrets doing it, yes, but has not left any authoritative or workable replacement suggestions. Nor did JRRT obviously - thus our dilemna

So far in every version suggested [I think] there are gaps were we would need to fan-fictionalize to maitain a coherent tale.

I propose we think in terms of additions to the 77 Silm Ruin of Doriath- which may well need to result in a few minor subtractions.

Such as[LIST][*]the additions of The wanderings of Hurin[*]Asgon and co. going to Nargothrond and getting the Nauglamir and some treasure to cast at Thingols feet, [*]like Aiwendil I see a battle with the outlaws as impossibly outdated. [*]I would love to see Melian lift the curse of Mim's treasure from the outlaws, but for the moment I am reluctant to countenance it, till I can read a version that does not have it, and see if I feel it's lack as a real thing, not just an item on a wish-list.[*] I think the idea of Asgon becoming the cource of the material [subbing his name in the Dirhavel/Aelfwine material?] is possible, but has Fan-Fiction liabilities. However JRRT seemed to be clearly heading in that direction as Asgon is the thread that ties Turin's ramapage in Dor-Lomin to Hurin, and he seemed to intent on having the outlaws [of whom Asgon was pre-eminent] go with Hurin to Doriath.

CJRT did a masterful job of turning a sinlge reference to Ents at the destruction of the host of Dwarves into marrative, so, again I say we keep it.
--------------

Ultimately I see this DoD issue [especially Thingol's death] as a question of 2 competing views;
1- do we want to imrove on the 77 and have the best possible [and longest/largest] literary 'Silmarillion'.

Or

2- the most 'pure' 'Silm' using JRRT's older ideas and material over CJRT's even when it is in total chaos.

The Principles and stated member goals seem to allow for both, so we have to choose.

I will [though it is rare for me in general] go for 1 over 2.

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 08-27-2003, 02:54 PM   #28
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Posted by Aiwendil:
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Well, we don't know the details of the argument; it's possible that Thingol felt justified in scanting the promised reward. Thingol is, and remains in the later writings, a proud and sometimes short-sighted character. I could well imagine him finding some justification for refusing payment to the Dwarves - perhaps he suspects their treachery and means to punish their insolence, or something like that.
Actually we do know some details of the argument out of piece of canon. The Hobbit; chapter 8: Flies and Spiders:
Quote:
It [Thranduils hall] was also a dungeon of his prisoners. So to the cave they dragged Thorin - not too gently, for they did not love dwarves, and thought he was an enemy. In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay.
This is, in my view, a killer for the Sil '77 version. If the only vault the Elves accused the dwarves for was to steal the treasure, how could the dwarves murder Thingol in his own cave? And if the Dwarves only accused the Elf-king of refusal of payment, how can we than believe that the dwarven-smith that murdered Thingol in his hall survieved that dead?
All this fits much better to the story of the Q30, were the dwarves ploted to gain the treasure and seemed to make a sharp discussion with Thingol about it and than were driven away without payment.
We are given also part the argumentation of the dwarves /Q33/:
Quote:
But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and disire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.
In that account of the story it seemed that Thingol scanted the reward without any good reason, but that must not be the case in our version since it does not longer fit to the charachter as developed in the other texts.

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Old 08-27-2003, 03:34 PM   #29
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Originally posted by lindil
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I propose we think in terms of additions to the 77 Silm Ruin of Doriath- which may well need to result in a few minor subtractions.
I need to know if this is the official view of the majority of the members. I'm in total opposition to this. There are parts of the QS77 that I would not mind using but Thingol's death is where I draw the line. I need to know the line in which the project will lead to in order for me to continue.
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Old 08-27-2003, 09:22 PM   #30
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Lindil wrote:

Quote:
I propose we think in terms of additions to the 77 Silm Ruin of Doriath- which may well need to result in a few minor subtractions.
And Maedhros wrote:

Quote:
I need to know if this is the official view of the majority of the members. I'm in total opposition to this.
It is certainly not my view; I am also rather in opposition to it.

Christopher Tolkien states not only that he regrets certain of the changes he made but also that a far less radical version is probably possible. This is the view that has the benefit of years of study and insight.

At one time I thought that we would need to use Christopher's version; but I had grossly overestimated the amount of editorial reworking that would be required to make something sensible out of Tolkien's writings alone.

Our principles allow us to use text created by Christopher Tolkien but they certainly never compel us to do so. The preference, of course, is to use JRRT's text - and plot - wherever possible.

The situation with the death of Thingol can be taken care of simply by following the note suggesting that he went to war beyond the border and leaving the details ambiguous.

For the quarrel of Thingol and the Dwarves, we have at the very least the Q30 account.

The one real problem that we are left with, in my view, is the fate of the outlaws. But we would be left with this in any case, since no one (as far as I know) is suggesting that we follow the '77 in dropping the outlaws.

Lindil wrote:

Quote:
I would love to see Melian lift the curse of Mim's treasure from the outlaws, but for the moment I am reluctant to countenance it, till I can read a version that does not have it, and see if I feel it's lack as a real thing, not just an item on a wish-list.
But isn't this the kind of fan fiction that a moment ago you said you wish to avoid?

I admit, it would make a good story. But I think introducing it would be stepping a little over the bounds of editorialization.

Quote:
I think the idea of Asgon becoming the cource of the material [subbing his name in the Dirhavel/Aelfwine material?] is possible, but has Fan-Fiction liabilities.
Agreed. I certainly don't think we should actually say anything concerning Asgon or anyone else following their departure from Menegroth.

Quote:
CJRT did a masterful job of turning a sinlge reference to Ents at the destruction of the host of Dwarves into marrative, so, again I say we keep it.
I agree.

Quote:
I will [though it is rare for me in general] go for 1 over 2.
Alas - I quite definitely go for 2 over 1.

But perhaps we should put the Ruin of Doriath aside and focus on finishing the Fall of Gondolin. What we do not need is to be deeply embroiled in the two most troublesome chapters at the same time.
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Old 08-28-2003, 02:24 AM   #31
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Posted by Lindil:
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Ultimately I see this DoD issue [especially Thingol's death] as a question of 2 competing views;

1- do we want to imrove on the 77 and have the best possible [and longest/largest] literary 'Silmarillion'.

Or

2- the most 'pure' 'Silm' using JRRT's older ideas and material over CJRT's even when it is in total chaos.

The Principles and stated member goals seem to allow for both, so we have to choose.
I would in any case vote for 2. 1 is in my viiew only an opption if we can't manage 2 at all (and that seems not to be the case in DoD, as far as I can see).

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
But perhaps we should put the Ruin of Doriath aside and focus on finishing the Fall of Gondolin. What we do not need is to be deeply embroiled in the two most troublesome chapters at the same time.
Alas - I have to agree to this. The working speed is slow enough if we only try to do one chapter at a time (even to slow for some as it seems).

But as it is, the beginning of the discussion were anything is possible, were the storyline is under discussion and were the mayor problems are solved is the most interesting part. The hard and tieresome discussion of little bits and details of textual changes are only done by people really devotet to the task.

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Old 08-28-2003, 12:43 PM   #32
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I will say only a fwe things which I think will cover the many points.

As for a need to consider resign maedrhos, see a new thread about to appear in the Private Forum.

Re: all other participants prefering position 2 over 1, this is hardly a suprise to me. and it is certainly a positiion for which a strong argument can be made.

As Aiwendil said, and I completely agree the priniciples allow us to go in either direction, but do not force our hand in either directionn.

As for Aiwendil's and Findegil's wise suggestion that the focus stay on FoG, it makes perfect sense.

I only need apologize for hopping on what was meant as a stop-gap measure by Maedhros [this being something for the rest of the group to chew on] while I finish giving my thoughtsd and input on the FoG.

So the ball is squarely back in my court.

As for the FoG, again see my soon to appear thread in the Private Forum.

Thanks for your patience.
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Old 08-28-2003, 03:43 PM   #33
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Quote:
As for a need to consider resign maedrhos, see a new thread about to appear in the Private Forum.
I feel that I have to apologize lindil. It was not meant in a mean way. I had spend some time working on a Revised Ruin of Doriath, and I feel very strongly that from JRRT material a more reliable version could be made. I would have not left the project, just the Doriath part.

And yes, I feel that we should finish the FOG first, but I had finish my first draft version of ROD that I had to post it. The good thing is that I got a lot of feedback with some nagging issues on it, and I think that the next version will be an improvement.
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Old 08-28-2003, 11:11 PM   #34
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No need to apologise - It is an honest difference of opinion.

I, and others have said before [I think Michael Martinez may have first brought the concept to my attention] that there is no one right way. there are room for many alternative Silmarillions.
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Old 08-30-2003, 05:54 PM   #35
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Either way, we're going to have some disgruntled people if we go with choice 1 or choice 2, so we have to come up with a compromise that makes most of the members happy. I for one, kind of like the first choice, but I can understand where all those who like the second choice better are coming from. Why don't we try a little bit of both? We'll try to keep to the "pure" Silmarillion whenever we can, but in the cases where CJRT's version is better organized, we'll go with that.
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Old 08-31-2003, 04:00 PM   #36
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Posted by Finwe:
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Why don't we try a little bit of both? We'll try to keep to the "pure" Silmarillion whenever we can, but in the cases where CJRT's version is better organized, we'll go with that.
Since we are discussing about the story-line I can't actually see how that can work. Could you give some more information about how you would start to work that out?

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Old 09-01-2003, 11:14 PM   #37
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Heaven's Sake, my little inquiry really took off, while the family and I were traversing the hills of Ithilien and watching the Bard's unfortunate re-vision of what the word "Elf" has commonly come to be seen as.

I think there is much time to figure out this tricky issue. It is hardly the sort of thing for anyone's getting bent out of shape, as other more obvious project's continue. There may be no perfect answer, and discrete subtly may be needed. CRT's words and techniques may have to be accepted as a starting point as Lindil seems suggest, and then see what else can be properly made to work with minimal amending of a Tolkien's text. This may me a case where a "foot"note or other device is called for that alludes to the uncertainty and generalness of the account given and notes alternative tales. Even JRRT's finished work would present two or more variants for explaining a certain even or development. [The "---" tell that .... While it is said by the "----", rather ...]

Personally, I can report that I'm currently plodding into HoME X, and keeping up with Letters as I go, though I may also read HoME XII Pt. 1, before going much further with the "Later Silmarillion." So, I hope to be qualified for the private forum and real contribution, soon.
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Old 09-02-2003, 02:13 PM   #38
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Good to see you again, Man-of-the-Wold.

You are right that we have a lot of time to think about things and need not get all worked up about them right now. Still, I think we've made a lot of progress in the above posts, in terms of identifying critical issues and difficult points (if not in solving them).

You are right also that there is no perfect approach. I agree very strongly with Lindil's point that there is no one right way; there is room for many alternative Silmarillions.

But I still subscribe to the view that Christopher Tolkien's version of the Ruin of Doriath should not be used as the basis for our version. A footnote or something similar may very well be in order.

[ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]
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Old 09-08-2003, 12:29 AM   #39
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Aiwendil, I bow to the light of your wisdom.

Perhaps it is best to merely keep CRT's effort in mind, but otherwise put it aside for a while.

We should start anew with whole cloth and make it into a quilt of real JRRT text from the Quenta Noldorina, Lost Tales and what not. I don't know of anything in the later tales that would make traitors among the Doriathrim so inconceivable. With the Silmirils came the Doom of the Mandos.

[I'am increasingly of the mind, though, that CRT's edited [I]Silmirillion[I/] is as good as anything that his father might have done in the 1950s---as intended---had he gotten it together, at that time. The obvious exception would have been the true completion of the later chapters, for which CRT prudently chose quick, if sometimes dirty resolutions. Those chapters were evidently never ever really worked on again, since the 1930s, under any scheme. And the later schemes of JRRT were too ambitious and was never going to approach publishable form. By 1977, the publishers had waited long enough.]

[ September 08, 2003: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]
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Old 09-27-2003, 10:36 PM   #40
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(Sorry for replying so late Findegil)


We have agreed that some "versions" of the Silmarillion have areas that are better organized than others. For example, one "version" could have a better Ainulindalë, whereas the other could have a better Ruin of Doriath. (I mean "better," as in more organized). We could kind of line up the different parts, by looking over them, figure out which ones make more sense, are better organized, etc. and use those. That way, we won't necessarily have to stick with one version all the way through, we will just pick out the better-organized parts from each one and compile those together.

(Have I made any sense? Forgive me, I'm typing this at about 11:25 PM, and I'm on a lot of caffeine).
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