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Old 12-03-2004, 03:23 PM   #81
Findegil
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If we change Gelion to Duin Dhaer than a change from Saranathrad to Athrad D(h)aer would look strange from me. But that is only a matter of taste. Nevertheless I wold rather take Athrad i-Negyth. Harathrad is clearly older than Athrad Daer, thus Athrad D(h)aer or Athrad i-Negyth are the possible names. But we do not know if Dhaer or Daer is the later. If Daer is later we have to change Gelion to Duin Daer.

Concerning the "Lamp of Faëry": Unfinished Tales; part I: The first age; chapter 1: Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin; Note 2:
Quote:
The blue-shining lamps of the Noldorin Elves are referred to elsewhere, though they do not appear in the published text of The Silmarillion. In earlier versions of the tale of Túrin Gwindor, the Elf of Nargothrond who escaped from Angband and was found by Beleg in the forest of Taur-nu-Fuin, possessed one of these lamps (it can be seen in my father's painting of that meeting, see Pictures by J. R. R. Tolkien, 1979, no.37); and it was the overturning and uncovering of Gwindor's lamp so that its light shone out that showed Turin the face of Beleg whom he had killed. In a note on the story of Gwindor they are called "Fëanorian lamps", of which the Noldor themselves did not know the secret; and they are there described as "crystals hung in a fine chain net, the crystals being ever shining with an inner blue radiance."
Thus "Lamp of Fëanor" could be a good change.

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Old 12-04-2004, 09:59 AM   #82
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Maedhros wrote:
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Gelion to Duin Dhaer.
I had missed this entirely. I suppose we must implement this, though I can tell you it will take some getting used to.

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Yes, as I have read it now it is ambiguous as to which is which so I think that I would rather say dwarves of Nogrod.
Then we are agreed on this.

Findegil wrote:
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Thus I can not look up the circumstances of its use, which I would like to know before we prupose a change. I am sure that the phrase was not often used even in TN. Thus I don't think it is wourth a discussion about a general change.
Agreed - we can discuss when it comes up the text.

Maedhros wrote:
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Couldn't it be also Athrad Daer too?
It looks like we have three names among which it's very difficult to choose: Harathrad, Athrad D(h)aer, and Athrad i-Negyth. I'm not sure that the name "Athrad Daer" invalidates "Harathrad" - in fact, one could suppose that all three names were used, "South Ford", "Great Ford", and "Ford of the Dwarves". But that's baseless speculation. I suppose we must go with either Athrad D(h)aer or Athrad i-Negyth to be safe. But which? There's almost nothing to push us either way. However, since it was "Athrad Daer" that was written against "Harathrad", and thus "Athrad D(h)aer" shows up more times than "Athrad i-Negyth" I would say that perhaps we should go with it.

That leaves us with the "Dhaer" vs. "Daer" question, and I can see no way of guessing which is later. Perhaps "Daer", since it shows up in "Duin Daer" as well, while "Dhaer" only appears once? I don't know.

I think we are agreed on the storyline, though. I do want to look it over when I get a chance, but I can think of no further problems at the moment.
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Old 12-05-2004, 12:10 AM   #83
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Where are we right now then?

It seems that we have agreed on the most difficult points regarding the storyline. One would think that we would follow a very similar path like the one we used in the Fall of Gondolin, in which we took the later text Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin to the end and then we joined it with the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin.
In this particular case it would be the Wanderings of Húrin with the Tale of Turambar and the Tale of the Nauglafring, but unlike in our work with the Fall of Gondolin, it is a little different. In the Fall of Gondolin, the evolution of the characters didn't change that much as the story evolved contrary to that of the Tale of the Nauglafring. The elves of Gondolin, there is really not that big a difference between those in the Tale and those in later Tuor, while there is a huge difference between the "wood elves" in the Tale and the later "elves of Nargothrond". Also in the Tale Tinwelint has no treasure in comparison to the latter Thingol who does. The good thing however is that Thingol attitude hasn't changed much as the story changed over time.
I also wonder about the treasure of Nargothrond. In the Tale, a great deal of the treasure was of "unworked" gold but I wonder why that should be in our later story. At the time of the Tale, the Rodothlim were very different that the Elves of Nargothrond. Why would the later Elves of Nargothrond had a great part of their treasure in "unworked" gold if they were the same who brought from Valinor a greater part of their gems than any of the other Ñoldorian exiles?
From the Book of Lost Tales II: Tale of Turambar
Quote:
In this passage is found (so far as written record goes, for it is to be remembered that a wholly erased text underlies the manuscript) the origin of Nargothrond, as yet unnamed. Among many remarkable features the chief is perhaps that Orodreth was there before Felagund, Lord of Caves, with whom in the later legend Nargothrond was identified, as its founder and deviser. (In The Silmarillion Orodreth was one of Finrod Felagund's brothers (the sons of Finarfin), to whom Felagund gave the command of Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion after the making of Nargothrond (p. 120), and Orodreth became King of Nargothrond after Felagund's death.) In the tale this cave-dwelling of exiled Noldoli is a simpler and rougher place
I don't think that matter of the treasure is a big deal, but it is something to be considered.

The question that now come is this:
How many details can we add from the Tale to our story?
Aiwendil, Findegil has proposed an addition of the last part of the attack of the sons of Fëanor with Dior, and I liked it a lot, I wonder what do you think about it and if we can get away with using that?

Because Findegil and me have worked in our versions of the story, we are in a way very advanced but I wonder which text will we use as our base text for the story now.
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Old 12-06-2004, 03:37 AM   #84
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Because Findegil and me have worked in our versions of the story, we are in a way very advanced but I wonder which text will we use as our base text for the story now.
If we would now go back to your or to my version and take that up as a basis text, we would again be hard put to fight down details in favour of the established storylinie. Well, all that I did in this thread was meant to creat the basis text! I provided it in post #65. Since that, some emendations have been made in the following discussion, which we have to integrate.
The next step is to replace phrases and sentences of that basis text with more detailed material. The crux is now not to change the storyline by the exchange or adddition.
Thus the basis text is Q30 and we have to groups of changes RD-SL-zz for changes done to make the storylinie fit our understanding developed above and RD-EX-zz for expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed.

I have already started that process and will bring forth a text in the privat forum soon. In the moment I do not see how I can rip that text of enough content to post a version of it here in the public forum, but I will think about that when the text is complet (because I at least highly disire to make the discussion understandable for (interested) visitors).
Just to make Maédhros more confident with the process: I a sure you that I had your draft 4 in front of me when I search for possible addition. I do that work really by a comparison of three texts (not that easy to do): The text given in post #65 with the emendations discussed there after; Maédhros draft #4 and my owne version made in response to Maédhros draft #1. To make that comparison easier to follow, I did adopt the §-numbers form draft #1 (as I did in my version, but without each § mentioned that was droped or moved). In addition each change will be indicated by one of our "editorial markers" (RD-yy-zz).

So fare for the moment, and I now will go back to the work on the text.

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P.S.:
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I think we are agreed on the storyline, though. I do want to look it over when I get a chance, but I can think of no further problems at the moment.
Aiwendil, I am not sure you will get that chance before we start the discussion about added details, but that does not hinder any part of the storyline to be discussed again if you find that it needs some further discussion and / or change. If you would rather like me to wait with the above promissed text, please make a remark here. I will not post the text before tomorrow and will chek her before posting.
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Old 12-07-2004, 01:16 AM   #85
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Go ahead and post it. I will, alas, be quite busy over the next few days and won't get much time to look things over.

Could we perhaps post the changes in the public forum by only indicating the beginning and end of extracts? For example, for a long insertion from TN:

Quote:
Text from Q30 <TN Beginning of first sentence of extract . . . end of last sentence.> Text from Q30.
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Old 12-07-2004, 05:56 AM   #86
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I have posted the text in the privat forum. I stiked to the sections Maédhros has once made, even if they do not sweet my text very good.

A version for the public forum will follow as soon as I can manage to creat it. So please restrict yourself for a short time and start the discussion here in the public forum, after I posted the text here.
The public version will ofcourse not have a "cleaned" text and it will be much harder to follow. Therefore I would recommend the privat version to any member.

I am sure that not all my addtions to the text will make it to the final version, but I hope that my version does bring the project forward. At least the "cleaned" text should be a nice read.
So sit back, take some time and enjoy!

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Old 12-07-2004, 12:11 PM   #87
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Things worked out faster than I thought. The version for the public forum is also posted now. So please feel free to comment. Any discussion is awaited in happy expectancy.

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Old 12-07-2004, 07:16 PM   #88
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I look forward to reading it as soon as I get a chance.

For the moment, though, one thing that occurred to me: If we change Gelion to Duin Daer, what is to be done with the name "Thargelion"? I can think of no reasonable way of replacing it, but I'm not sure that such a difficulty could be considered a valid case for rejecting the change and retaining "Gelion".
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Old 12-07-2004, 07:52 PM   #89
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The least we can do is take the other names of the land "Dor Caranthir" or Talath Rhûnen" at least we could use the discriptive translation "The Land beyond Duin Dear". The only problem would than be the one passage were all these names are given.

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Old 12-08-2004, 10:57 AM   #90
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I don't mean to sound too insolent (as so far it has been the two of you that have done all the hard work for this section) - but do you think that perhaps we should discuss one subsection at a time, as we did for FoG? That would keep matters from getting too confusing, and would certainly make it easier for me to jump in and comment when I have a free moment (which is I think something that should happen tomorrow or Friday).

Findegil, I guess you're right about the alternate names for Thargelion. It seems a shame to lose a shade of meaning there, but I think we can live with it.
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Old 12-08-2004, 11:40 AM   #91
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I don't mean to sound too insolent (as so far it has been the two of you that have done all the hard work for this section) - but do you think that perhaps we should discuss one subsection at a time, as we did for FoG? That would keep matters from getting too confusing, and would certainly make it easier for me to jump in and comment when I have a free moment (which is I think something that should happen tomorrow or Friday).
That is fine by me. Actually in the first part, I'm in almost complete agreement with what Findegil has done. I have only several little points here and there but nothing major in terms of the story. I think that you being the more apt in your ways with the english language would perhaps smooth out some of the ackwardness of parts of the text.
There are things that I think that you might make observations, so I'm glad to hear your opinons.
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Old 12-08-2004, 01:58 PM   #92
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I don't mean to sound too insolent (as so far it has been the two of you that have done all the hard work for this section) - but do you think that perhaps we should discuss one subsection at a time, as we did for FoG? That would keep matters from getting too confusing, and would certainly make it easier for me to jump in and comment when I have a free moment (which is I think something that should happen tomorrow or Friday).
You don't sound insolent (but mighty buisy). Lets go through it begining to end start with "Húrin in Nargothrond" and comment on what ever diserves it. And we will go on to the next section when ever we all agree that the first is finished.

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Old 12-10-2004, 11:27 AM   #93
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but mighty buisy
Yes - applying to graduate schools is not something to be left to the end of the semester.

I've posted comments on the first section, though, and should be able to find a little more time for all this in the near future.
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Old 12-15-2004, 11:13 AM   #94
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Now I am myself the one to re-open the storyline discussion.
Aiwendil wrote:
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FD-SL-22: I wonder about using Mablung here. In the 77 he defends the Silmaril to the last, but as I recall I could find no precedent whatsoever for this in any of JRRT's writings.
Your feeling that Mablung was problematic was very good, but you look in the wrong place for the reason of it. I had a similar feeling when I prepared the text of the expanded Version but did only search all the sources for the dad of Thingol to find the reason. Now at last I found it, when I re-read Ælfwine and Dírhaval for the post in the Myths Transformed thread.
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Here begins that tale which Ælfwine made from the Húrinien: which is the longest of all the lays of Beleriand now held in memory in Eressëa. But it is said there that, though made in Elvish speech and using much Elvish lore (especially of Doriath), this lay was the work of a Mannish poet, Dírhavel, who lived at the Havens in the days of Earendel and there gathered all the tidings and lore that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of Dorlómin, of Nargothrond, or of Doriath. From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Androg who was in the outlaw-band of Turin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh. Otherwise all that time between the flight of Túrin from Doriath and his coming to Nargothrond, and Túrin's deeds in those days, would have remained hidden, save the little that was remembered among the people of Nargothrond concerning such matters as Gwindor or Túrin ever revealed. In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear. This lay was all that Dírhavel ever made, but it was prized by the Elves and remembered by them. Dírhavel they say perished in the last raid of the sons of Fëanor upon the Havens. …
This is the first version of the introduction. In the second one it is Ælfwine himself not a later editor that does write and in that second version neither Mablung nor Andvír are mentioned. The question is now if we consider the information about Mablung (and Andróg) still valid after the perspective of the telling of the inroduction has changed the text.
After we have removed Ælfwine from our version we can not use either version of the introduction without any change, but it might be much easier to rework the first one than the second one. But that is not the issue here.

The question here is:
Do we consider Mablung alive in the days of Dírhaval (as he is named in the second version) or not? If we consider him alive, do we still see him as a part of the fatal hunting party of Thingol?

As a matter of fact I see even more need to change the details of Thingols death: to avoid another failure with Mablung I made in intens search and have read all scenes were he is named in The History of Middle-Earth. By that search I discoverde the follwing Note applied to the sentence of Thingols death beside Mablung in TN:
Quote:
Yet in the end were they all fordone, and Mablung and the king fell side by side -- but Naugladur it was who swept off the head of Tinwelint after he was dead, for living he dared not so near to his bright sword or the axe of Mablung.

Against this sentence my father wrote a direction that the story was to be that the Nauglafring caught in the bushes and held the king.
Now we can consider the note to mean that Naugladur did sweep of Thingols head while he was alive but rendered helpless by the acrused Necklace clinging to some bushes or we considere it only a further detail of his death by someone else. But this is clearly a discussion about textual details that we will do in the thread "Ruin of Doriath - Attack on Menegroth"

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Old 12-16-2004, 05:59 AM   #95
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After providing the facts in the last post, I will, after some thought, give away my oppinion about Mablung and the hunt:
For me the information that Mablung did survie to speak with Dírhaval at the Haevens is valid. With that it would be easiest to skip him from the hunt completly. But the easiest way is not the one I would go. He is Thingols chief thane and by his deads in the original Wolf-hunt I would find it strange if he would not have been there when the celebration hunt was so special in that year. Thus I think, if we let him take part in the hunt but mention that he was not with the small company that was lured outside the girdle we only make explicit what is to be expacted.

Looking at the note, I think that Naugaldur killed Thingol when he was bound by the Necklace. It was Tolkiens last (formulated) idea and it would make Melians and Berens acrusing Naugladur as a morderer more just. In addition it fits very well with the cruse of the Nauglamír and its effect in the fight of Beren and Naugladur.

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Old 12-16-2004, 09:29 AM   #96
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The question here is:
Do we consider Mablung alive in the days of Dírhaval (as he is named in the second version) or not? If we consider him alive, do we still see him as a part of the fatal hunting party of Thingol?
I think that the simplest change would be not to introduce parragraph 35, as I intended to do in the Attack on Menegroth discussion. So that we can be vague about the fate of Mablung.
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Old 12-16-2004, 11:22 AM   #97
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The story in "Aelfwine and Dirhavel" 1 that Mablung survived and came to the mouths of Sirion certainly supercedes the story in TN. And we have no later evidence that the story reverted to the earlier one. So I would say that in our version Mablung must be supposed to survive and make it to the havens.

In view of the invalidation of the story of Mablung as told in TN, my first inclination is to take Findegil's easy way out and leave him out of the hunt completely.
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Old 12-16-2004, 01:05 PM   #98
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So, we all agree on Mablung it seems. Then I think that we can move foward to the next section.
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Old 12-17-2004, 05:18 AM   #99
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Okay, so we will take Mablung out of the hunt completly. I will provide a subtitution text for the scene later on. Hopefuly before we start with section 3.

I agree with Maédhros that section is done so fare and that we should go on with "Outlaws in Menegroth".

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Old 12-28-2004, 04:57 PM   #100
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Eye Great Work

Well, I'm hardly now more than a pest, and I must commend Findegil's editing. Perhaps, when my children are grown, I can delve into the textual nitty-gritty. Or, perhaps, I should try anyway, but in addition to my famous daughter, I am now blessed with Aidan son of Arthur. And, having now read the whole HoME, I can't think of a revised Silmarillion without the revised cosmology, which seems easier to rectify than some of things dealt with here.

In any event, allow me some concessions and arguments about what I had intended in response to Findegil. Also, I adjure all "Fan-Fiction," I don't even read it, but I am open-minded about the alternatives that exist for understanding JRRT's more general and allusional passages. We are not dealing with hard facts.

Quote:
FD-SL-01 / Note 1: So we all agree that Húrin had a band with him. The Naming might be objectively wrong, but the cores of the group were the companions from Hithlum and Tolkien ever called them outlaws. Thus, I think we could use that name for Húrin following still.
"Outlaws" they are by convention; I was just commenting that it has a negative connotation that may be somewhat oppostional to JRRT's latest intent. More Robin-Hood-like outlaws might be more appropriate.

Quote:
FD-SL-03 / Note 2: We could clearly give different accounts of Mîm's death in the way Man of the World suggested it. But if we do that as often as suggested we will break the narrative to peaces. And I don't think it is needed her. Q30 is the last source of the event, and even if the motives of Húrin are changed
we can still find good reasons for him not to promote or deal out Mîm's death.
Naturally, with agreement, the use of a single tradition is best. Having Mim's death occur contrary to Hurin's wishes is fine. Though after Wandering's I'd avoid ascribing any charity or mercy to Hurin, just that he might not have wanted Mim killed as such.

Quote:
FD-SL-10 / Note 3: The fate of the outlaws is discussed already at length in this thread. And we all seem to agree that they could not overcome (at least not all) the cruse of Mîm. How we can make that clear in our text is the difficult part and can, as I think, only be worked out with the text-editing.
This is clearly difficult. The less said the better. It might be implied that some are more immediately affected, falling ill or mad along the road, per the lines from the original Tale of the Nauglafring and leave it at that.

Quote:
FD-SL-05 / Note 4: I don't see the advantage in the storyline Man of the World suggested. Beside the fact that we have no source for it so that it would be pure fan-fiction, we would also ruin the gesture as in Q30 if Elves of Doriath would carry the treasure into the hall. If we are going to accept that awkwardness than we should use the story of Q30 because it would settle the fate of the outlaws nicely.
Granted, I was just musing about untold explanations. I do consider it implausible, however, that any more than a few of Hurin's companions, who reached Doriath, might have been allowed to actually enter therein. Assuming some of the treasure was lost along the way, I see no problem in assuming (however implicitly) that it got loaded on a few Sindarin wagons for final transport to Menegroth, but it should be indicated that more than the Nauglafring was delivered. Let's just assume that Hurin's men did the loading by his will. I would then edit things such that Hurin is alone or virtually alone when appearing before and bitterly mocking Thingol and Melian.

Quote:
FD-SL-7 / Note 5: The healing of Húrin is, in my view, not in line with context of the tragedy call Narn. Beside that I even do not see the ability for Melian to do that. Could she have lifte the cruse than she would have done it earlier with Túrin, Morwen and Nienor who were all for some time under her protection. I think Húrin must depart in bitterness. Thus his free death in the western-sea, reported as a rumour, is much more likely.
First, I don't see Hurin's as free-death, but rather tragic suicide brought on by extreme mental anguish, which was not necessarily improved by knowing the truth. While it might not be retainable, I wouldn't be too sure that CT entirely made it up in terms of what Melian does, simply for lack of pertinent manuscript text. It makes sense. All she's doing for Hurin is subtly lifting a veil of deception.

I for one do not believe that his family was cursed by Morgoth in any particular way. Morgoth wot perhaps something of the fate that awaited them, and he actively influenced it further through both mystical powers and tangible actions, but they had the ability to control and moderate (though not conquer) such doom by being less prideful, impulsive and haughty. They remained true and faithful to the struggle, nevertheless, achieving more than some of the first-born, and are remembered by the Elves not only out of pity, but as great Elf-friends.

Hurin is too, and Morgoth's goal in showing him a distorted picture of his family's ill-fortune was to manipulate his bitterness. That such a bubble is so easily burst by Melian I find very fitting. Still, drop it if you think CT was off base.

Quote:
FD-SL-14 to FD-SL-17 / Note 9: I agree with the statement of Man of the World, but to create a text for it we make this more difficult.
I am quite sure the texts exists in terms of Thingol's outrage and the dwarves expulsion without pay. Again, I was offering something about why this works that needn't be added, even if other existing texts are not used.

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FD-SL-17 to FD-SL-19 / Note 10: Agreed in general, but I don't think the passage in The Hobbit can be read like Man of the World does read it. Even in the later position of Thranduils realm in north Mirkwood all his dwarven neighbours were of Dúrins house (Ered Mithrim, Erebor, Ered Engrin) in the former location in southern Mirkwood they were even nearer to the main city of Dúrins Folk. Thus if the family of Thorin was not involved in that incident than the passage must refer to some other realm.
No, I agree that when JRRT wrote The Hobbit he simply had in mind a dwarf-reformed version of The Tale of the Nauglafring/Quenta Noldorina. In the 1930s, JRRT might have even thought of Bilbo's Eriador as being under Gil-Galad's rule (the King) and maybe separated from the great Goblin Wars by a Millenium. Still, given later traditions regarding the vast intervening Second and Third Ages (over 6,000 years), I feel that speculation concerning vague texts allows one to think of Wood-Elves of that region having done business with a more easterly Dwarf House when the power of Durin's Folk had been in retreat at one time or another.

Also, in view of protest from someone else, I must say that Mim's murder cannot be used at all as a pretext by Great Dwarves. They clearly would have cared less about him.

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FD-SL-23 / Note 11: I don't think that the girdle could be overcome by treachery at all, and I think Maedhros and Aiwendil agree with me in this point. What the Warriors of Doriath did protect were parts of Thingols realm not included in the Girdle, like Dimbar were Túrin and Beleg fought. People that were rescued from starving in the decides of the Girdle and let in by Elves like Beleg did with Túrin or like Húrin were, at least, thought of by Melian as being in freindly terms with Thingol. And they all were led in as "guarded guests". Clearly it is possible to tell a fan-fictional story were some Elves of Doriath feign to make the army of Naugladur prisoners and thus gained a passage for, but that would by fare beyond the border of the limits set by our rules. And in addition the Dwarves did not need some Elves to show them the way into Doriath, they had visited it many times before. But still JRR Tolkien wrote concerning the Dwarves: "Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army!"
I would agree that Doriath could not be directly penetrated, but much harm could be done to the borders, and what's to stop someone from burning and chopping the forests down as they go? Easily defended it was, but defended the woods needed to be.

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FD-SL-20 / Note 12: It is nice to have someone on my side concerning the treachery of the Elves of Doriath, even if we do not agree in the way it affected the storyline.
I think it's important to retain some reference to the confusion and troubles of those days and not to let the Grey-Elves off too easily as immune to greed and the Doom of Mandos. But one could certainly dismiss treachery as an element in the Nogrodrim's victory.

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FD-SL-21 / Note 13: What Man of the World did suggest her is not useable for the project as it is again hardly fashionable within the rules of the project.
Maybe. At the same time, I see the story of the Hunt as useless and unsustainable. I wouldn't refer to it at all. Why would Thingol be hunting beyond Doriath or the pedestrian Dwarves be able to intercept a hunting party? ... even if somehow informed of its general location.

Therefore, I'd succinctly go with the later reference of Thingol's being lured out beyond the Girdle, the only explanation being implied about his rage and carelessness in wanting to confront the Dwarves, who dared to wage war. Makes sense. Why would he just sit tight and let the Dwarves harry his borders? He's also easily incensed one gathers.

Let Mablung's fate stay unreported, though. The notion of treachery having played a role can simply be dismissed as a wicked rumor, that reflected only how the lies of Morgoth and the Doom of Mandos had indeed managed to enter into the hearts of the Doriathrim.

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FD-SL-23 / Note 14: I agree on this point, but Maedhros still has an other view.
Once Thingol falls on the marches, his forces are scattered, his folk are in disarray, and I think there is only one logical move for the Melian of the later Silmarillion, which is to depert Middle-Earth forthwith. She doesn't belong there w/o Thingol,

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FD-SL-23.5 / Note 15: Agreed on the first part, but I don't see why the dwarves would not be able for such violence as the ravening of Menegroth. The pitiless fight of the Dwarves against the Orks in the third age is an example for such violence on the side of the Dwarves.
I'm sure the Dwarves were capable of some mindless destruction and would have met some resistance. But they have one thing in their sights, and The Tale of the Nauglafring was written with decidedly evil Dwarves in mind, who were often as not allies with the goblins. And the Third-Age War with Orcs can hardly be compared with one against another Free People, with which the Dwarves had been allies in earlier Battles. I daresay only the Elves might attempt less than a pitiless war against Orcs.

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FD-SL-23 / Note 16: Again I agree to Man of the World here but Maedhros seems to have still some objections.
Melian apparating to Ossiriand? Oh please!

Again, from what the eye catches I think fine work is going on, but a thin chapter it will remain. My compliments.
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Old 01-13-2005, 11:36 PM   #101
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All this work on Doriath looks fantastic, guys. You make it look like it could have been done in 1977.
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Old 09-10-2015, 06:54 AM   #102
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Question

Can you explain me step by step Ufedhin was rejected?

Here is a passage from the Narn i-Chîn Húrin:

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Therefore Beleg gladly became the guide of the wanderers, and he led them to a lodge where he dwelt at that time with other hunters, and there they were housed while a messenger went to Menegroth. And when word came back that Thingol and Melian would receive the son of Húrin and his guardians, Beleg led them by secret ways into the Hidden Kingdom.
The Girdle of Melian always seemed to me more as a labyrinth then a "force field".

Which led me to believe that a single Elf could guide the Dwarven army into Doriath following "Ariadne's thread".

Besides - why would the Dwarven army attack Doriath if they knew that it was protected by the Girdle? I would seem a bit idiotic.
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Old 09-10-2015, 05:17 PM   #103
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Ufedhin's rejection was not only conected to the gridle. Anyhow, if simple knowledge of a way through would have been enough to overcome its protection, the dwarves would not have needed any traitor, as they often had been welcomed guests in Menegroth.
Ufedhin was rejected because the majority of project members found it unprobable that there was a traitor from Doriath to the Dwarves at all.

I also imagin the gridle like to a Labyrinth. But more in the vain of the Old Forest east of the Shire: All ways you could find would lead you out again sooner or later. Only if you were a welcomed guest a way would open for you to go in, and even then it would probably be safer to have a guide.

And in thinking in that direction explains way many members found Ufedhin would not have been succesfull: Coming back with bad intetion against Doriath would lead the trees to force you out again equaly if you had know a former way in or not.

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Old 09-10-2015, 08:07 PM   #104
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Perhaps. But why would the Dwarves decide to attack a kingdom which they knew was impenetrable?
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Old 09-12-2015, 05:03 AM   #105
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Also - the matter of Gereth and Evranin (and Nielthi).

You said that they are not valid Sindarin, but could they still be kept nonetheless? I hate losing material from the texts.
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:35 PM   #106
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On the one hand, it is not clear that Dwarves did know that a bad intention against the inhabitants would mean that they could not enter Doriath. And the implicit theory behind the Dwarven attack, was that they did know that Thingol would be at that time on his hunt to celebrate the Charcharoth-hunt and they would try and succed to lure him beyond his borders. Once they killed Thingol they tried (probably because they thought that he was responsible for it) and found that the girdle was removed and use that fact.

Gereth and Evranin and Nielthi: To include them would mean to change a fact in the Sindarin tongue as it was when Tolkien last worked on it. Our rules are strongly against it.

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