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Starbreeze · 03-23-2002, 03:14 PM

Some modern authors are actually angry that Tolkien's books are doing so well!
They claim that "old authors" shouldn't be allowed to knock "new authors" off the top spot, and say that his works are taking away their readers. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Do you think that they have a right to feel this way about an author who's work has inspired so many people, probably even themselves, and who deserves the kudos he's getting?

Belin · 03-23-2002, 03:30 PM

I want more information. Who said so? How? In what context?.... It just seems like such a strange comment to make out of nowhere...

Starbreeze · 03-23-2002, 03:38 PM

It was in a magazine I picked up while I was waiting for my dad in a shop, I didn't have time to read much, only enough to get the general idea, and I can't for the life of me remember what the magazine was called. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Daegwenn · 03-23-2002, 03:41 PM

This is a really interesting question....

I consider myself a writer, and I find that it isn't fair when my work is compared to Tolkien. There is no hope for aspiring writers when you get fantasy critics that say that 'It is Really like Tolkien'. It hurts when you try and think of an original idea and find that 'Someone has already done that'

Am I angry? Nope. He paved the way for Fantasy novels. Personally, I think these writers aren't angry just jealous. Jealous that they can't think of anything that original. Or they, too, are tired of being compared to such an author as great as he.

Modern Writers shouldn't think of Classical writers as an 'annoyance' that would be like pushing a respected elder down the stairs. They paved the way for the writers of today and it is up to them to think of something unique. If anything, they should try their hardest to become a writer that someday would be amongst the names of authors such as Shakespeare, Mark Twain, J.R.R. Tolkien, Tolstoy, Voltaire, Robert A. Hienlien. Etc.

~~Daegwenn

Starbreeze · 03-23-2002, 03:49 PM

I agree Daegwenn, I too consider myself a writer, and countless times I have been compared to Tolkien, but I am not angry, which is why I think that these writers are wrong to think that they alone are entitled to the "top spot". [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Starbreeze ]

Enedhil · 03-23-2002, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Some modern authors are actually angry that Tolkien's books are doing so well!
They claim that "old authors" shouldn't be allowed to knock "new authors" off the top spot, and say that his works are taking away their readers.

Isn't that a wee bit of insecurity showing? no offence intended

Belin · 03-23-2002, 04:38 PM

But, still, I wonder why they would say such a thing.....

Probably what they resent (if I were to put words in their mouths) is the perhaps artificial reader boost that Tolkien's works have gotten from the movie... but of course this is foolish of them... you'd think writers would want people to read, and particularly you'd think they'd want people to read great books. But Tolkien's status is strange. He is not, strictly speaking, canonical (you notice you never hear them complaining about the others that were just mentioned, because people would consider it absurd), so they probably view him as a mere mortal type, and yet he's revered by many in a way that perhaps these writers dislike?..

hmm.... I don't know. I hate to malign people without even knowing exactly what they said, or what they meant, but if they meant it the way it sounds it just makes me sad........

Kalimac · 03-23-2002, 06:36 PM

Certainly they have the right to say it. And we have the right to tear their arguments apart as well. Fair enough? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]?

I write a lot of stories, and of course I'm nowhere near Tolkien's caliber; for one thing, he was a genius, for another thing, he'd been writing a LOT longer than I have. Practice, my friends, practice. No matter how much innate talent you have, it'll come to nothing if you don't worked incredibly hard at it. So yes, I'd be a bit sensitive about being directly compared to Tolkien - it's a little like if some critic went to see a slapstick comedy and said that it was no good because it was no Citizen Kane. We're talking about entirely different levels of enjoyment.

I'd like to see the article where the authors are quoted, but I'm betting that they don't speak for the majority - it does sound like the kind of thing that some young writer over-gifted with ego just might say out of resentment and thoughtlessness - maybe a sense of entitlement as well; "Hey, I'm alive. I've got more right to be a bestseller than he does. What good does it do him now, anyway?" The thing writers have to realize is that writing is not an industry in which everyone gets a turn in order to be fair. If someone manages to be a bestseller for forty years, chances are he's doing something right that you aren't. So don't waste time whining about it - you're not going to make people like your books more by issuing some sort of fiat that we have to buy a quota of books written by living writers. You'll make people like your books by writing them well. So work at that as hard as Tolkien did. Writer, go thou and do likewise.

Sorry if I sound a bit lecturing; this isn't directed at anyone here, obviously - just at any writers who were crass enough to say such things in a magazine.

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

Birdland · 03-23-2002, 08:38 PM

Doesn't sound like the authors are upset about having their talent or skills compared to Tolkien so much as the hype over the movie is making people go out and buy LOTR, instead of seeking out a "new read". That's going to put LOTR back on the best seller's list, which makes book store display it more prominently, which lead to more sales...and so on.

Can't really blame them. Most new authors get an advance, enough to cover sales of the first printing run, and can't expect to get any more unless the book takes off. That takes attention from the media or the critics, unless the book is so fantastic that word-of-mouth leads to more sales. And if your book doesn't sell enough copies to cover the advance...well, the publisher might not be so eager to see your next book.

To see a dead author displayed at the front of the store, while their own books are buried in the racks must be frustrating.

Glenethor · 03-23-2002, 09:09 PM

I say, let them eat lembas. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

ElanorGamgee · 03-23-2002, 09:25 PM

Well, that's life. No one guaranteed them that their books would sell. They should quit crying and work on making their writing so good that unexpected sales won't affect them so much. Maybe I'm being insensitive, but I'm fed up with people constantly whining and acting like life owes them something. Tolkien was a great writer, and if his books are selling, it's because he was very talented and earned the recognition he is recieving today.

Weber · 03-23-2002, 09:46 PM

i think that Tolkien's books r better than most of the newer bokks now

Starbreeze · 03-24-2002, 09:49 AM

Wow! A lot of strong opinions here! I must say that I agree with most of you. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Daegwenn · 03-24-2002, 02:17 PM

I have read some wonderful books from modern authors(Anne Rice, Alice Borchardt, Marion Zimmer Bradley, David Eddings, Diana Gabaldon, Pauline Gedge, J.K. Rowling, Harry Turtledove- the list goes on and on). No need to bash them. I think it is unfair that people compare modern writers to Tolkien. I think that some people are a little too quick to assume that writers are jealous because of their books not getting written into movies and Tolkien's do. What about writers like Frank Herbert, Heinlein, or Tom Clancy? you don't see writers going "Damn them for being so successful!!!" Or at least I haven't.

I think that most writers are just fed up that they are being treated unfairly when it comes to critiques. Comparing a novice writer to someone of that calliber? That's like comparing the backstreet boys to the Commadors.

Let's say you painted a picture that you spent days upon days doing and then someone came along and said "It's too much like Monet..." How would you feel? I know I would feel like crap and I would be really angry. Not at Monet! But at those critics. Some authors strive for individuality. When someone comes along and says that to me, I would like to reach out and slap the person silly.

That still doesn't give them the right to slag a wonderful author, but they may have their opinions--as wrong as you and I may think they are.

Don't put down modern authors, they are the future generations of Classical authors. What some think is crap, in the future many will prize as closly to their hearts as we do with Tolkien. Already there is traces of this amongst younger generations that are beginning to pick up books and read.

If potential authors think that their success will be made overnight, they are sadly mistaken. Tolkien didn't just suddenly appear out of nowhere waving Lord of the Rings in his hands and have millions of people read them. It took him years. That is what some modern authors forget. If they whine and moan about authors that are successful instead of writing their own, then they will get nowhere.

Now that I have confused myself (and most likely others...) I think I'll end this novel-I mean, note.

~~Daegwenn

Birdland · 03-24-2002, 03:49 PM

"This month's Ophrah's Book Club Selection...The Lord of the Rings, by J.R.R. Tolkien".

Boy, wouldn't that set some authors off!

Starbreeze · 03-25-2002, 03:34 PM

Grrr, I just read what I wrote before and now I'm mad - why can't people just accept that you have to work hard to be recognised! Grrr [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

There, rant over! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

VanimaEdhel · 03-25-2002, 04:54 PM

Hey! Personally, I am never compared to Tolkien...King (Stephen) sometimes, but...heehee. If I WERE to be compared to an author as famous as Tolkien, and as talented, I would be very moved. That may be, of course, because I love Tolkien's writing style, but one can always dream!

Anyway, most writers are just jealous of Tolkien's popularity. It's called the "Best-Seller" list, and if Tolkien is a "best-seller" around now, he should be PUT ON THE LIST! That's my opinion anyway!

Starbreeze · 03-26-2002, 02:01 PM

Being compared to Tolkien in a good way is fine ( ha! - like that will ever happen to me! ) but when people say stuff like "you know, that sounds awfully similar to LOTR" and "you're not anywhere as good as that person who wrote the Hobbit"
( What makes me mad is that they didn't even know his name! )

03-23-2002, 03:14 PM	#1
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	Did you know? Some modern authors are actually angry that Tolkien's books are doing so well! They claim that "old authors" shouldn't be allowed to knock "new authors" off the top spot, and say that his works are taking away their readers. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Do you think that they have a right to feel this way about an author who's work has inspired so many people, probably even themselves, and who deserves the kudos he's getting? __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

03-23-2002, 03:30 PM	#2
Belin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: all the wide unfriendly pathways of the world Posts: 330	I want more information. Who said so? How? In what context?.... It just seems like such a strange comment to make out of nowhere... __________________ "I hate dignity," cried Scraps, kicking a pebble high in the air and then trying to catch it as it fell. "Half the fools and all the wise folks are dignified, and I'm neither the one nor the other." --L. Frank Baum

03-23-2002, 03:38 PM	#3
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	It was in a magazine I picked up while I was waiting for my dad in a shop, I didn't have time to read much, only enough to get the general idea, and I can't for the life of me remember what the magazine was called. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

03-23-2002, 03:41 PM	#4
Daegwenn Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 82	This is a really interesting question.... I consider myself a writer, and I find that it isn't fair when my work is compared to Tolkien. There is no hope for aspiring writers when you get fantasy critics that say that 'It is Really like Tolkien'. It hurts when you try and think of an original idea and find that 'Someone has already done that' Am I angry? Nope. He paved the way for Fantasy novels. Personally, I think these writers aren't angry just jealous. Jealous that they can't think of anything that original. Or they, too, are tired of being compared to such an author as great as he. Modern Writers shouldn't think of Classical writers as an 'annoyance' that would be like pushing a respected elder down the stairs. They paved the way for the writers of today and it is up to them to think of something unique. If anything, they should try their hardest to become a writer that someday would be amongst the names of authors such as Shakespeare, Mark Twain, J.R.R. Tolkien, Tolstoy, Voltaire, Robert A. Hienlien. Etc. ~~Daegwenn __________________ "And still of a winter’s night, they say, when the wind is in the trees, When the moon is a ghostly galleon tossed upon cloudy seas, When the road is a ribbon of moonlight over the purple moor, A highwayman comes riding— Riding—Riding— A highwayman comes riding, up to the old inn-door. Over the cobbles he clatters and clangs in the dark inn-yard. And he taps with his whip on the shutters, but all is locked and barred. He whistles a tune to the window, and who should be waiting there But the landlord’s black-eyed daughter, Bess, the landlord’s daughter, Plaiting a dark red love-knot into her long black hair" Highwayman Alfred Noyes

03-23-2002, 03:49 PM	#5
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	I agree Daegwenn, I too consider myself a writer, and countless times I have been compared to Tolkien, but I am not angry, which is why I think that these writers are wrong to think that they alone are entitled to the "top spot". [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Starbreeze ] __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

03-23-2002, 04:38 PM	#7
Belin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: all the wide unfriendly pathways of the world Posts: 330	But, still, I wonder why they would say such a thing..... Probably what they resent (if I were to put words in their mouths) is the perhaps artificial reader boost that Tolkien's works have gotten from the movie... but of course this is foolish of them... you'd think writers would want people to read, and particularly you'd think they'd want people to read great books. But Tolkien's status is strange. He is not, strictly speaking, canonical (you notice you never hear them complaining about the others that were just mentioned, because people would consider it absurd), so they probably view him as a mere mortal type, and yet he's revered by many in a way that perhaps these writers dislike?.. hmm.... I don't know. I hate to malign people without even knowing exactly what they said, or what they meant, but if they meant it the way it sounds it just makes me sad........ __________________ "I hate dignity," cried Scraps, kicking a pebble high in the air and then trying to catch it as it fell. "Half the fools and all the wise folks are dignified, and I'm neither the one nor the other." --L. Frank Baum

03-23-2002, 06:36 PM	#8
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Certainly they have the right to say it. And we have the right to tear their arguments apart as well. Fair enough? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]? I write a lot of stories, and of course I'm nowhere near Tolkien's caliber; for one thing, he was a genius, for another thing, he'd been writing a LOT longer than I have. Practice, my friends, practice. No matter how much innate talent you have, it'll come to nothing if you don't worked incredibly hard at it. So yes, I'd be a bit sensitive about being directly compared to Tolkien - it's a little like if some critic went to see a slapstick comedy and said that it was no good because it was no Citizen Kane. We're talking about entirely different levels of enjoyment. I'd like to see the article where the authors are quoted, but I'm betting that they don't speak for the majority - it does sound like the kind of thing that some young writer over-gifted with ego just might say out of resentment and thoughtlessness - maybe a sense of entitlement as well; "Hey, I'm alive. I've got more right to be a bestseller than he does. What good does it do him now, anyway?" The thing writers have to realize is that writing is not an industry in which everyone gets a turn in order to be fair. If someone manages to be a bestseller for forty years, chances are he's doing something right that you aren't. So don't waste time whining about it - you're not going to make people like your books more by issuing some sort of fiat that we have to buy a quota of books written by living writers. You'll make people like your books by writing them well. So work at that as hard as Tolkien did. Writer, go thou and do likewise. Sorry if I sound a bit lecturing; this isn't directed at anyone here, obviously - just at any writers who were crass enough to say such things in a magazine. [ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ] __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-23-2002, 08:38 PM	#9
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Doesn't sound like the authors are upset about having their talent or skills compared to Tolkien so much as the hype over the movie is making people go out and buy LOTR, instead of seeking out a "new read". That's going to put LOTR back on the best seller's list, which makes book store display it more prominently, which lead to more sales...and so on. Can't really blame them. Most new authors get an advance, enough to cover sales of the first printing run, and can't expect to get any more unless the book takes off. That takes attention from the media or the critics, unless the book is so fantastic that word-of-mouth leads to more sales. And if your book doesn't sell enough copies to cover the advance...well, the publisher might not be so eager to see your next book. To see a dead author displayed at the front of the store, while their own books are buried in the racks must be frustrating.

03-23-2002, 09:09 PM	#10
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	I say, let them eat lembas. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

03-23-2002, 09:25 PM	#11
ElanorGamgee Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 314	Well, that's life. No one guaranteed them that their books would sell. They should quit crying and work on making their writing so good that unexpected sales won't affect them so much. Maybe I'm being insensitive, but I'm fed up with people constantly whining and acting like life owes them something. Tolkien was a great writer, and if his books are selling, it's because he was very talented and earned the recognition he is recieving today. __________________ Soli Deo Gloria

03-23-2002, 09:46 PM	#12
Weber Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 31	i think that Tolkien's books r better than most of the newer bokks now __________________ Luinevaug

03-24-2002, 09:49 AM	#13
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	Wow! A lot of strong opinions here! I must say that I agree with most of you. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

03-24-2002, 02:17 PM	#14
Daegwenn Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 82	I have read some wonderful books from modern authors(Anne Rice, Alice Borchardt, Marion Zimmer Bradley, David Eddings, Diana Gabaldon, Pauline Gedge, J.K. Rowling, Harry Turtledove- the list goes on and on). No need to bash them. I think it is unfair that people compare modern writers to Tolkien. I think that some people are a little too quick to assume that writers are jealous because of their books not getting written into movies and Tolkien's do. What about writers like Frank Herbert, Heinlein, or Tom Clancy? you don't see writers going "Damn them for being so successful!!!" Or at least I haven't. I think that most writers are just fed up that they are being treated unfairly when it comes to critiques. Comparing a novice writer to someone of that calliber? That's like comparing the backstreet boys to the Commadors. Let's say you painted a picture that you spent days upon days doing and then someone came along and said "It's too much like Monet..." How would you feel? I know I would feel like crap and I would be really angry. Not at Monet! But at those critics. Some authors strive for individuality. When someone comes along and says that to me, I would like to reach out and slap the person silly. That still doesn't give them the right to slag a wonderful author, but they may have their opinions--as wrong as you and I may think they are. Don't put down modern authors, they are the future generations of Classical authors. What some think is crap, in the future many will prize as closly to their hearts as we do with Tolkien. Already there is traces of this amongst younger generations that are beginning to pick up books and read. If potential authors think that their success will be made overnight, they are sadly mistaken. Tolkien didn't just suddenly appear out of nowhere waving Lord of the Rings in his hands and have millions of people read them. It took him years. That is what some modern authors forget. If they whine and moan about authors that are successful instead of writing their own, then they will get nowhere. Now that I have confused myself (and most likely others...) I think I'll end this novel-I mean, note. ~~Daegwenn __________________ "And still of a winter’s night, they say, when the wind is in the trees, When the moon is a ghostly galleon tossed upon cloudy seas, When the road is a ribbon of moonlight over the purple moor, A highwayman comes riding— Riding—Riding— A highwayman comes riding, up to the old inn-door. Over the cobbles he clatters and clangs in the dark inn-yard. And he taps with his whip on the shutters, but all is locked and barred. He whistles a tune to the window, and who should be waiting there But the landlord’s black-eyed daughter, Bess, the landlord’s daughter, Plaiting a dark red love-knot into her long black hair" Highwayman Alfred Noyes

03-24-2002, 03:49 PM	#15
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	"This month's Ophrah's Book Club Selection...The Lord of the Rings, by J.R.R. Tolkien". Boy, wouldn't that set some authors off!

03-25-2002, 03:34 PM	#16
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	Grrr, I just read what I wrote before and now I'm mad - why can't people just accept that you have to work hard to be recognised! Grrr [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] There, rant over! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

03-25-2002, 04:54 PM	#17
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,473	Hey! Personally, I am never compared to Tolkien...King (Stephen) sometimes, but...heehee. If I WERE to be compared to an author as famous as Tolkien, and as talented, I would be very moved. That may be, of course, because I love Tolkien's writing style, but one can always dream! Anyway, most writers are just jealous of Tolkien's popularity. It's called the "Best-Seller" list, and if Tolkien is a "best-seller" around now, he should be PUT ON THE LIST! That's my opinion anyway! __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

03-26-2002, 02:01 PM	#18
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	Being compared to Tolkien in a good way is fine ( ha! - like that will ever happen to me! ) but when people say stuff like "you know, that sounds awfully similar to LOTR" and "you're not anywhere as good as that person who wrote the Hobbit" ( What makes me mad is that they didn't even know his name! ) __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.