Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by davem

Boromir's death is less clearly 'Pagan', but I think the whole 'deathbed confession/absolution' thing has been pushed way too far by many commentators looking to 'prove' the 'Christian' nature of the work. Boromir does not ask for absolution. He acknowledges his fault in attempting to take the Ring - which one would expect from a warrior at his death, & he asks Aragorn to save his people. Effectively he admits he has done wrong & has paid the price - though its entirely possible to read his words as implying that his real failure in his own eyes was his failure to save his people - ie a tactical, rather than a moral, failure. The death scene may be interpretable in the way you imply, but I think that its more a case of 'applicability' - its not not Christian/Catholic, but that's a long way from saying it is Christian/Catholic. What I mean is, a reader who was only familiar with old legends & knew nothing about Catholic ritual/tradition is not going to read that scene & be left totally confused by what was happening. It makes perfect sense given what we know of the characters & the situation they have found themselves in.

Boromir's death can be seen as having Christian ties, as Boromir in his last words did give a confession. His death can also be seen as having pagan ties, like you pointed out. Neither of you are 100% correct. If you analyze something so hard looking for similarities, eventually you will find some on both ends. Boromir's funeral is just that - the funeral of Boromir. Why do you have to over analyze it?

[davem]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Boromir's death can be seen as having Christian ties, as Boromir in his last words did give a confession. His death can also be seen as having pagan ties, like you pointed out. Neither of you are 100% correct. If you analyze something so hard looking for similarities, eventually you will find some on both ends. Boromir's funeral is just that - the funeral of Boromir. Why do you have to over analyze it?

It is the funeral of Boromir, of course. The issue is one of Tolkien's sources, & of what he is trying to evoke.

Compare Boromir's funeral

Now they laid Boromir in the middle of the boat that was to bear him away. .... His helm they set beside him, and across his lap they laid the cloven horn and the hilt and shards of his sword; beneath his feet they put the swords of his enemies. Then fastening the prow to the stern of the other boat, they drew him out into the water. .... Sorrowfully they cast loose the funeral boat: there Boromir lay, restful, peaceful, gliding upon the bosom of the flowing water. The stream took him while they held their own boat back with their paddles. He floated by them, and slowly his boat departed, waning to a dark spot against the golden light; and then suddenly it vanished. Rauros roared on unchanging. The River had taken Boromir son of Denethor, and he was not seen again in Minas Tirith, standing as he used to stand upon the White Tower in the morning. But in Gondor in after-days it long was said that the elven-boat rode the falls and the foaming pool, and bore him down through Osgiliath, and past the many mouths of Anduin, out into the Great Sea at night under the stars.

with Scyld Scefing's funeral from Beowulf:

þær æt hyðe stod hringedstefna,
In the roadstead rocked a ring-dight vessel,

isig ond utfus, æþelinges fær.
ice-flecked, outbound, atheling’s barge:

Aledon þa leofne þeoden,
there laid they down their darling lord

beaga bryttan, on bearm scipes,
on the breast of the boat, the breaker-of-rings,

mærne be mæste. þær wæs madma fela
by the mast the mighty one. Many a treasure

of feorwegum, frætwa, gelæded;
fetched from far was freighted with him.

ne hyrde ic cymlicor ceol gegyrwan
No ship have I known so nobly dight

hildewæpnum ond heaðowædum,
with weapons of war and weeds of battle,

billum ond byrnum; him on bearme læg
with breastplate and blade: on his bosom lay

madma mænigo, þa him mid scoldon
a heaped hoard that hence should go

on flodes æht feor gewitan.
far o’er the flood with him floating away.

Nalæs hi hine læssan lacum teodan,
No less these loaded the lordly gifts,

þeodgestreonum, þon þa dydon
thanes’ huge treasure, than those had done

þe hine æt frumsceafte forð onsendon
who in former time forth had sent him

ænne ofer yðe umborwesende.
sole on the seas, a suckling child.

þa gyt hie him asetton segen geldenne
High o’er his head they hoist the standard,

heah ofer heafod, leton holm beran,
a gold-wove banner; let billows take him,

geafon on garsecg; him wæs geomor sefa,
gave him to ocean. Grave were their spirits,

murnende mod. Men ne cunnon
mournful their mood. No man is able

secgan to soðe, selerædende,
to say in sooth, no son of the halls,

hæleð under heofenum, hwa þæm hlæste onfeng.
no hero ’neath heaven, — who harbored that freight!

[MatthewM]

I still think if you are looking to compare his death to a certain mold such as a Christian death or a Pagan death, you will eventually find similarities for both.

[davem]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

I still think if you are looking to compare his death to a certain mold such as a Christian death or a Pagan death, you will eventually find similarities for both.

I agree - the danger of confusing applicability & 'allegory' is ever present. One interprets events in the book as one will. Now...I think perhaps we should redirect this discussion to another thread, before we get too far away from the topic & the admins begin to stir....

[ArathornJax]

Another thing that I really picked up on in listening is the theme of the various roads that each party is meant to go on. Treebeard declares to Merry and Pippin that "Our roads go together - - to Isengard!"

Aragorn declared that "the fate of the bearer is not in his hands."

Gandalf tells Aragorn that Aragorn must go to Edoras as he is needed there.

Finally, the journey of Frodo and Sam become interwoven with Gollum on the road they take together.

I believe this goes back to that theme earlier found in The Black Riders:

Frodo:

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it join some larger way,
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

Surely we see the joining of much larger ways where many paths and errands meet. Finally, from here where will it go, we don't know.

I don't know why, but this episode really brought these points together for me. I'm not sure if that was the intent, but surely we can see how the errands of Merry and Pippin with Treebeard; Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli with Gandalf going to Edoras; and Sam and Frodo going to Mordor while meeting a new guide in Gollum.