Gothmog vs. Sauron

[Eönwë]

Since I know how fond everyone is of these "vs" threads lately, I think I'll go with one I've been thinking of for a while now.

The question- who would be better in a fight?

We constantly hear of Sauron being second in command to Morgoth, yet it is Gothmog who leads the armies. It takes a great elven warrior to kill Gothmog, whereas Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was).

What do you think?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

We constantly hear of Sauron being second in command to Morgoth, yet it is Gothmog who leads the armies. It takes a great elven warrior to kill Gothmog, whereas Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was).

Well, as I am not a huge fan of these "who would win" things, I would only comment here several things: Sauron was, first of all, a Sorcerer. A Necromancer. THE Necromancer (I have the feeling I wrote something very similar just recently). I think maybe in a sword fight, or whatever, if it were a duel where no "spells" can be used, Gothmog may have been the winner. However, at the moment when Sauron would encounter Gothmog on the Bridge of Khazad-Dum and there was no other way for him, so they would have to fight, but there were no things to restrain Sauron from using all his power, I cannot really say about the outcome. It would depend mainly on the creativity of the two, where I think Sauron had that and a good spot for using the right things to his advantage, I think. Possibly.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

We constantly hear of Sauron being second in command to Morgoth, yet it is Gothmog who leads the armies. It takes a great elven warrior to kill Gothmog, whereas Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was).

I wouldn't always associate prowess with rank.

Second in Commands, to put it in anachronistic terms, often function as Executive Officers or Staff Chiefs, while the actual units are commanded by people subordinate to both the commander and his second. It has been this way for a long time, across many cultures.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I wouldn't always associate prowess with rank.

Second in Commands, to put it in anachronistic terms, often function as Executive Officers or Staff Chiefs, while the actual units are commanded by people subordinate to both the commander and his second. It has been this way for a long time, across many cultures.

Well, yes that is true. Morgoth is the "commander" and Sauron his "Executive Officers" as you put it. But they would have needed to have good fighters. Sauron is more the strategic, non-fighter type (I don't think he actually fought in any of Morgoth's wars) whereas Gothmog is a superwarrior.

And think about this: The Valar are the highest ranking of all, yet Eönwë () is the "greatest of arms in Arda."

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And think about this: The Valar are the highest ranking of all, yet Eönwë () is the "greatest of arms in Arda."

And nobody could beat Tulkas.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

And nobody could beat Tulkas.

And neither is he the greatest of the Valar.

[Andsigil]

That's kind of my point.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

It takes a great elven warrior to kill Gothmog, whereas Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was).

I'm not sure that Huan would be able to kill Sauron. He just took his physical form away. Sauron is a Maia, so it's not that simple to "kill"him. I don't think he was ever killed; when the Ring was destroyed he was just weakened too much for hi to begin anew. Also, Huan was not exactly a plain dog - it says that in his barking you could hear Orome's horn. It's like a bit of ORoe is inside Huan, and Orome is more powerful than Sauron, being a Valar.

[Almesiva Moonshadow]

Also,Huan could have been a Maia in the form of a wolfhound,since we all
know Maiar can change their form,or no?
It could have been a Maiar in the service of Orome,who took a form of a wolfhound,
and might have been equal or even more powerfull then Sauron,them beign both
of the same order...
...I know it sounds unlikely but...Maiar can take the forms of animals
and humans alike so...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I'm not sure that Huan would be able to kill Sauron. He just took his physical form away. Sauron is a Maia, so it's not that simple to "kill"him. I don't think he was ever killed; ...

But this distinction can be raised with respect to the Elves, for example. Death is the separation of body and spirit, not the annihilation of the spirit. The Elves were slain, so was Sauron. In a sense it might be said that one can't 'kill' a Man if it is believed his spirit continues outside the Circles of the World.


As for Huan being a Maia-spirit or not, I think (from what I recall!) the 'evidence' is just as inconclusive as with some of the eagles.

[Galadriel55]

Ainur are not the same as elves, though, in this respect. It is true that the Fea of elves never dies, but they are "dead" to the outside world when they go to the Halls of Mandos. Maiar don't need to have a physical form, but they become people or animals (like Almesiva Moonshadow said), so that to become closer with Arda and Eruhini. They can exist in Arda without a body, though. An elve's fea would not be able to do that. When it is separated fro the body, it goes straight to Mandos.
During the Fall of Numenor, Sauron lost soe of his power - he could not change his physical form at will anymore. When Isildur chopped off the Ring, he lost almost all of his power and was not able to take a physical form again (it is possible that he would regain that power if he got the Ring back, but I'm not sure about this).

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

They can exist in Arda without a body, though. An elve's fea would not be able to do that. When it is separated fro the body, it goes straight to Mandos.

Not necessarily - it's not like Mandos has some great spiritual vacuum-cleaner that sucks all bodiless fëar into his halls willy-nilly. He summons them, but while most elvish fëar will obey the summons, they all have the freedom to refuse it, and some do, roaming Middle-earth in their disembodied state. It can be speculated that at least some (maybe most?) of the spirits Sauron conjured and misused in his necromany were such 'houseless' elvish fëar (probably of Avarin origin).

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

When Isildur chopped off the Ring, he lost almost all of his power and was not able to take a physical form again (it is possible that he would regain that power if he got the Ring back, but I'm not sure about this).

That's one of the many popular misconceptions spread by the movies. According to the book, Sauron had regained his physical form at the time of the War of the Ring. Gollum met him in the flesh and told Frodo and Sam that 'He has only nine fingers on his black hand'.

[Galadriel55]

You are probably right, Pitchwife, but for some reason I always thought that Sauron needed the Ring to get back the power to create a body for himself. I don't trust the movies one jot; that idea of mine came from the books. A long time ago I decided for myself that Gollum didn't really see Sauron's body. According to me what really happened is that what remained of Sauron's power and will was still so great, that Gollum saw a vision of how Sauron would look like when he was brought before him. Since the missing finger was a big part of who Sauron is (cause he wore the Ring on it, etc), Gollum would have seen only 9 fingers. Sauron's Eye doesn't really exist, like it does in the movie. It is Frodo's metaphor for Sauron's power when he's searching, because that is when Frodo felt it most before he came close to Mordor.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Ainur are not the same as elves, though, in this respect. It is true that the Fea of elves never dies, but they are "dead" to the outside world when they go to the Halls of Mandos. Maiar don't need to have a physical form, but they become people or animals (like Almesiva Moonshadow said), so that to become closer with Arda and Eruhini. They can exist in Arda without a body, though. An elve's fea would not be able to do that. When it is separated fro the body, it goes straight to Mandos.

As noted by Pitchwife (and me in another recent thread) the Elven fea can refuse the summons of Mandos and 'haunt' Middle-earth.

You posted that you don't think Sauron was ever killed, and seem to have a problem with using this, or similar terms. OK but I don't think we need to worry about other factors that might be raised, in order to use these terms that is: when Sauron's body and spirit are separated, I think we can say he has been slain. Tolkien doesn't feel the need for quotation marks, for example: 'Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.' (JRRT, letter 131)

As Pitchwife also noted, Sauron was physical again in the Third Age. He could rebuild his body because the Ring existed. Letter 200 (begins) 'I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished.'

There's other text regarding the body of Sauron in the Third Age, but letter 200 is a good example (the full letter if one has Letters of JRRT).

[Galadriel55]

Perhaps so. However, even from your words, Huan didn't really kill Sauron, as Eonwe said in the beginning of the thread. Vanquished=defeated, concoured; not necessarily slain. He lost his power and his body when he was defeated, but was he really killed by Huan?
Moreover, it says in The Sil that the only reason why Sauron left his body in Huan's possession is because he couldn't escape otherwise, and he left it on free will - Huan didn't really force him to do that.
Plus, it is said that Huan must battle the mightiest of all the wolves to ever exist before he would be killed. Sauron, taking the shape of a very large wolf but not being the mightiest, could not possibly defeat Huan. So even if in reality Huan may be weaker than Sauron, in this fight Sauron didn't have a chance of winning, because of the prophecy. Yes, I know that when describing it I said "killed" and not "concoured". Sauron's goal was to kill Huan: he thought he would be able to do the prophecy. Not only defeat, but kill.

This probably makes no sense whatsoever, but these are the best arguments I can present for the case at the moment.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Perhaps so. However, even from your words, Huan didn't really kill Sauron, as Eonwe said in the beginning of the thread. Vanquished=defeated, concoured; not necessarily slain. He lost his power and his body when he was defeated, but was he really killed by Huan?

My first response above was to the section I quoted, which included that you didn't think Sauron was 'ever killed'. I didn't say Huan slew Sauron -- the Silmarillion text (1977 text anyway) says Huan released Sauron after Sauron yielded to Luthien.

Moreover, it says in The Sil that the only reason why Sauron left his body in Huan's possession is because he couldn't escape otherwise, and he left it on free will - Huan didn't really force him to do that.

The tale reads 'Ere his foul spirit left its dark house' Luthien came to Sauron. Or from the Grey Annals; 'Thus Sauron was constrained to yield up Tol Sirion, ere bereft of his bodily form he passed away as a black shadow into Taur-nu-Fuin.'

A draft text notes: 'Then lest he be forced from the body unwillingly, which is a dire pain to such spirits, he yielded himself. And Luthien and Huan wrested from him the keys of the tower,...' Lost Road pg. 300

[Nerwen]

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Galadriel55, I believe Galin's point was not that Huan killed Sauron, but that Sauron could be killed, and was. Or, at least, his spirit could be separated from his body, which I think is a fairly good working definition of being "killed".

[Nerwen]

By the way, when I saw this title, I thought it was a new thread, and the first thing that came into my head was: !!!! They've un-banned "Intellectual Threads" Mansun!

Sure liked his "vs" topics, that one.

[Galadriel55]

Well, it is possible that Huan could have killed Sauron; after all, he wasn't a regular dog. However, again, I'm not really sure if Sauron was indeed killed when hir Fea left his body. In the beginning of The Sil it says that the ainurs' bodies are like clothing, and their physical form could easily be changed or discarded. No one would say (I hope) that Ulmo died when he discarded his physical appearance the one or two times that he took one. Why do we all assume that Sauron died?
On the other hand, though, Gandalf says that he went through death when his Fea left his body and then was sent back in orded to finish his mission. However, Gandalf was in a hurry every time he talked about that, and most of the time he talked to those who do not now too much about the ways of Maiar, Mandos, etc. Maybe he was just putting it in a term that would be familiar to his listeners.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No one would say (I hope) that Ulmo died when he discarded his physical appearance the one or two times that he took one. Why do we all assume that Sauron died?

Well, there are many indications that there's quite a distinction between an Ainu voluntarily discarding a temporary form, and one who is habitually incarnate having to abandon his body because it's been damaged. The latter does seem enough like what we call "death" as to make little practical difference in the short term (which is what this thread is concerned with).

Cf. your own point here:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

However, Gandalf was in a hurry every time he talked about that, and most of the time he talked to those who do not now too much about the ways of Maiar, Mandos, etc. Maybe he was just putting it in a term that would be familiar to his listeners.

See? Even Maiar themselves can't be bothered with that kind of hair-splitting.

Seriously: for one thing, though nobody is arguing the "death" of one of the Ainur is exactly like the death of a mortal, talking about them being "killed" or "slain" or "dying", is, at least, an acceptable shorthand– and one that's apparently good enough for the author.

Finally, look, where exactly are you going with this, anyway? Gothmog was a Maia too, so any argument you make about Sauron being unkillable must also apply to him.

[Galin]

Noting a statement concerning Maiar-orcs:

'In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: (...) The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit state (even demon form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. (...)'

JRRT, Myths Transformed, Text VIII

In Osanwe-kenta (probably dates 1959-60), Pengolodh notes that though in origin a 'self-arraying', it may tend to approach the state of incarnation: '... especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar).' Pengolodh also cites the opinion that '... if a spirit (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hroa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate wihout the hroa.'

The note goes on to describe the things that are 'binding', mentions Melian, and notes that Melkor alone among the Great became at last bound to a bodily form. And...

'So it was with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken away from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed [Pengolodh here evidentally refers to Sauron in particular...'

JRRT, Osanwe-kenta, Vinyar Tengwar 39

If I recall correctly, after more than 400 years of the Sun the battle of Huan and Wolf-sauron takes place, and no matter what the magic art of shape-shifting entails in detail (for myself, I prefer not to cut this particular ball open too much to investigate its bounce), it's said that Sauron: '... could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly.' Noting too that Sauron yielded to Luthien as well.

As far as this hair needs to be split anyway, Sauron can be killed; and perhaps at the point in the battle with Huan Sauron's 'clothes' have become too much like an incarnate body, while by comparison Ulmo's form is more like raiment (noting again that only Melkor of the Great became bound to a physical body).

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galin

could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly

You are right that Sauron could be killed, but still I stand by the point that he wasn't killed by Huan. ELUDE does not mean SURVIVE or LIVE. Yes Sauron wanted to get away, but personally, I think that if he wouldn't have left his body he wouldn't die either. He'd just be controlled by Huan.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

ELUDE does not mean SURVIVE or LIVE. Yes Sauron wanted to get away, but personally, I think that if he wouldn't have left his body he wouldn't die either. He'd just be controlled by Huan.

But we know Sauron was (physically) killed on other occasions– what, in particular, makes you think he'd survive having his throat torn out (or whatever) this time? Or that Huan wouldn't be able to inflict sufficient bodily harm on him? I mean, you say you "personally" think so, but why?

Also–

Lúthien came to him and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth...

She's not talking about him voluntarily leaving his body there, is she?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You are right that Sauron could be killed, but still I stand by the point that he wasn't killed by Huan. ELUDE does not mean SURVIVE or LIVE. Yes Sauron wanted to get away, but personally, I think that if he wouldn't have left his body he wouldn't die either. He'd just be controlled by Huan.

For clarity, I am not and have not been arguing that Huan killed Sauron

In fact, although in Osanwe-kenta Tolkien notes that the first bodily destruction of Sauron is recorded in the Lay of Leithian, I don't see this as necessarily the interpretation with respect to the battle of Huan and Wolf-sauron (unless I've missed something here). So far anyway, I read the various versions as relating that Sauron, by yielding to Luthien, avoided being utterly de-bodied here.

That is, although too much wedded to his form, he was not killed by Huan, but would have been unless he yielded to Luthien. Again, that doesn't seem to mix easily with JRRT's statement in Osanwe-kenta, I realize, but that said, Sauron did not, it seems to me, retreat to his master as a 'ghost' (Luthien's warning), but fled in some form in any case, after avoiding death.

In other words, 'Ere his foul spirit left its dark house' (thus, before his spirit was separated from his body) Luthien challenged him, and Sauron relented, saving himself from this. In the actual Lay itself (written much earlier than Osanwe-kenta) Luthien tells Thu that he will die...

'unless the keys thou render me
of thy black fortress, and the spell
that bindeth stone to stone thou tell,
and speak the words of opening.'

Granted here, when Thu flees there is a 'wolvish corpse' noted, but Thu yet flies to Taur-na-Fuin in another form: '... a new throne [] and darker stronghold there to build.'

To me, he still seems to have escaped death.


What think you Barrow-downers?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

The use of capital letters here might imply that I am, or have ever been, arguing that Huan killed Sauron.

For clarity then, I have not and am not

In fact, although in Osanwe-kenta Tolkien notes that the first bodily-destruction of Sauron is recorded in the Lay of Leithian, I don't see this as necessarily the interpretation with respect to the battle of Huan and Wolf-sauron (unless I've missed something here). So far anyway, I read the various versions as relating that Sauron, by yielding to Luthien, avoided being utterly de-bodied here.

(...)

To me, he still seems to have escaped death.

What think you Barrow-downers?

I agree; in case my last post wasn't clear, I'm arguing not that Sauron was killed by Huan (in the Silmarillion version, at least, it seems pretty clear that he wasn't), only that it was possible. This whole rather tangled dispute has been about the claim by the original poster that

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was)

[Galadriel55]

Well, if you want to return to the original post, Huan was not a regular dog. Some other hound wouldn't be able to kill him. Moreover, as I've said before, it is said that Huan must battle the mightiest of all the wolves to ever exist before he would be killed. Sauron, taking the shape of a very large wolf but not being the mightiest, could not possibly defeat Huan. So even if in reality Huan may be weaker than Sauron, in this fight Sauron didn't have a chance of winning, because of the prophecy.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, if you want to return to the original post, Huan was not a regular dog. Some other hound wouldn't be able to kill him. Moreover, as I've said before, it is said that Huan must battle the mightiest of all the wolves to ever exist before he would be killed. Sauron, taking the shape of a very large wolf but not being the mightiest, could not possibly defeat Huan. So even if in reality Huan may be weaker than Sauron, in this fight Sauron didn't have a chance of winning, because of the prophecy.

Ah... but that depends on how you think prophecies work. The one about Huan, as quoted in the 1977 Silmarillion, is ambiguous:

He too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, and it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.

Does this convey total invulnerability upon Huan, even from those stronger than he, or does it just mean that only the mightiest wolf of all will be powerful enough to kill him? Considering it's meant to be a curse, I'd go for the second version. (You do realise that your interpretation would allow even a Chihuahua-sized Huan to win all the time just as easily as the huge beast he actually was? )

So: I'd say Huan beat Wolf-Sauron simply because he was stronger, and/or more skilled at physical combat. However, by the same token it's indeed true that Huan (whatever he was, exactly) wasn't "just a dog" by any means, so the fact that he defeated Sauron isn't really such a huge point against the latter.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You do realise that your interpretation would allow even a Chihuahua-sized Huan to win all the time just as easily as the huge beast he actually was?

However, Huan wasn't that small and weak, and that is perhaps one of the reasons for such a prophecy and such a fate.

[/QUOTE]So: I'd say Huan beat Wolf-Sauron simply because he was stronger, and/or more skilled at physical combat. However, by the same token it's indeed true that Huan (whatever he was, exactly) wasn't "just a dog" by any means, so the fact that he defeated Sauron isn't really such a huge point against the latter.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you got one of my points at last. I hope we all agree that Sauron COULD NOT be killed by any dog and that in whatever way Huan was not a normal dog, so he could kill him. The rest doesn't really matter that much if you consider the original question. We also have to remember that "great elven warriors" are exactly that - great. Even in the third age the Noldor remain great - for example, Galadriel can read Sauron's thoughts when he thinks of elves, but he doesn't know hers (please let's not discuss if it was really true, ect. That's beside the point). And Huan was the Hound of Valar, and you could hear Orome's horn in his bark; so in a way Huan represents the Valar, which makes him very powerful.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

It takes a great elven warrior to kill Gothmog, whereas Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was).

Well. That 'dog' was one of the mightiest hounds of Oromë. Perhaps Huan could have killed Ecthelion in a fight. Who knows? He is a dog, yes, but he's a powerful Wolf-hound.

Either way, I think Gothmog was more, er, 'courageous' than Sauron. I wold say Sauron relies more on wiles than strength. Gothmog, on the other hand, relies on war tactics and brute strength. So, in my opinion, Gothmog would win.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I wold say Sauron relies more on wiles than strength. Gothmog, on the other hand, relies on war tactics and brute strength.

true, that. Sauron might have more power, though. But it probably doesn't matter that much, since Tulkas was able to overcome Melkor the mightiest in a wrestling match.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

So, in my opinion, Gothmog would win.

Yes, if they have a physical combat. Sauron might try and sing Gothmog to death, though. How would this sound: "...And Gothmog fell before the throne"?

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

true, that. Sauron might have more power, though. But it probably doesn't matter that much, since Tulkas was able to overcome Melkor the mightiest is a wrestling match.



Yes, if they have a physical combat. Sauron might try and sing Gothmog to death, though. How would this sound: "...And Gothmog fell before the throne"?

In response to your question: it doesn't sound too bad, but it sounds as if Morgoth just banished him from Angband

Haha. Sing? I can picture it as this:

Sauron: I shall vanquish you!
Gothmog: Um...ok...
Sauron: Lalalalalala!
Gothmog: *brings mace down on Sauron's head* You are so annoying...