What happened to the avari?

First of all i know i'm asking alot of questions, but i'm far to interested in LotRs to stop now, [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (ps yes, ive checked the search option for this)
What happened to the avari? I know some of them were taken by melkor and tortured and twisted to become orcs, but after that? did any of them eventually come to middle-earth? Was where the firstborn awoke in middle-earth?
well theres some more questions, im sure ill have more by the time i end the series.

(oh just one small thing, any other new zealanders known if "the history of middle-earth" volumes are availible anywhere here?)

[Ultimatejoe]

The Avari don't really enter into any of the "canon" stories of Middle Earth (Canon being everything completed before Tolkien's death, andThe Silmarillion.) The remained hidden and sporadic most likely, although they did encounter the Atanatari, the fathers of the Fathers of Men and tought them speech. They would have eventually 'faded' until they could only be realized by a mortalif they revealed themselves.

[Lalaith]

Most of the elves who lived in Mirkwood under the rule of Thranduil were Avari. Although Thranduil himself was Sindarin (therefore also Legolas).
In answer to your other question, yes, Lake Cuivienen, where the elves awoke, was in the east of Middle Earth. While the Avari remained, the Eldar travelled west towards the coasts, from where they could sail to Aman/Valinor.
This is why the Sindar - who went on the Journey but didn't cross the sea, for various reasons - were still living in the west of Middle Earth, far from their original birthplace.

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

[Legolas]

They weren't Avari. They were Silvan elves. Silvan elves started the journey, whereas Avari ignored the summoning of the Valar altogether.

They eventually migrated north, and now they help this rather fat, jolly fellow distribute presents to the children of the world once a year in the winter.

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Lalaith]

You could well be right, (after all Legolas should know [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) but I think this might be a matter for debate. The Lorien elves were Silvan, but I don't know if the same applies to the Mirkwood ones. In the Hobbit, the Mirkwood elves are described as "descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie" - also "more dangerous and less wise." Tolkien speaks of them as separate from the Light Elves, Deep Elves and Sea Elves (ie the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri) but I think the Silvan folk were Teleri.

I've always been quite intrigued by the Avari (the ones that weren't twisted into Orcs).

[Ultimatejoe]

Those are odd groupings you have. The "Sylvan" elves never went to Faerie, which was later Elvenhome or Tol Eressea. Then again neither did the Sindar.

Perhaps an elaboration on the Sylvan elves is necessary. During the Summons the host of the Teleri (the largest) had two kings; Elwe and Lenwe. During the long march the elves tarried by the Great River. Some of the Teleri, led by Lenwe, forsook the march and went off down the river. These are the Nandor or Sylvan Elves. The Green Elves of Ossiriand are from the same people.

[lindil]

Ultimate Joe is correct, the Mirkwood elves are not Avari.

The only possible Avari [ and this is noteven likely] in the Legendarium is the mysterious community of Elves of Dorthonion.

There is nothing to lead us too suspect they were Avari, just no evidence thwe other way.

All we know about them is that their trading partners were the Mirkwood Elves.

They are more than likely Sylvan [ i.e. Nandorin] Elves also, but possibly the westernmost edge of the Avari or some sort of Avari-Sylvan blend.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Joe-the two 'main' kings during the march were Olwe and Elwe his brother. Lenwe simply gathered all the Elves who did not wish to pass the Misty Mountains. On a side note, what happened to Lenwe? We never hear of him again ,and it seems that despite the fact that he lived in the relatively safe area of M-E, and it seems doubtful that he would ahve been slain .At first I thought he may have been Mal-Galad or Oropher, until I remebered they were Sindar. and wasn't the Sea of Rhun, on which Dorwinion is located once said the be Cuiveneien, though that was abandoned by Tolkien. Men also made a large camp there, whilst they were passing westwards.

[Lalaith]

I've done some research on this while we've been discussing this thread and it seems that the Mirkwood elves were probably of mixed Silvan and Avari blood. So isn't that nice, we're *all* in the right. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
But incidently, I think it is "Silvan" not "Sylvan."

[the real findorfin]

I presume Lenwe remained in Eriador, when Denethor led his people into Beleriand. How sad, a parting of generations. Could Lenwe perhaps have been killed previously?

[Orald]

From what I have gathered after reading Silm, UT and some of HoME, most notably HoME 5, I had always figured the Silvan elves of Lorien and Mirkwood to be Avari.

In HoME 5 I found something that shows that Lenwë's folk and the Avari had the same term used for them, Lembi. So what is most likely is some of Lenwë's folk and some of the Avari actually intermingled to become the Silvan Elves as they were known in the Third Age.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Only some of the Nandor went to Eriador, lead by Denethor, most then excavated to Beleriand.

[Ultimatejoe]

Whoopsie, Olwe not Lenwe. My bad.

Silvan (Sylvan is the franchise learning academny...) elves were most definitely NOT avari. That'd be like saying the Noldor were Teleri; two distinct groups. The Silvan Elves never settled in Eriador, whether under Lenwe or Denethor.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Note the Dwarves messages to Thingol that his 'kinsfolk' were being driven out of Eriador by Orcs. They may have been wandering Sindar or Nandor.

[lindil]

In that passage I think the Dwarves are referring to the Nandor east of the Ered Luin, who soon [ hearing about Thingol via the Dwarves] moved on to Ossiriand through Eriador.

Sorry about Sylvan. I am used to it from a couple of other contexts [and it does look better!]

I've done some research on this while we've been discussing this thread and it seems that the Mirkwood elves were probably of mixed Silvan and Avari blood.

What are the exact sources Lailath?

OK

I found one source at least, on PoM-E p. 174 entry for year 750 S.A. we read:

Remnants of the Telerian Elves [of Doriath...] establish realms in the woodlands far eastward, but most of these people are Avari or East -Elves.

However this entry as it stands does not make it into the RotK appendices, and we are left wondering whether the idea was deleted due to a shift [ elsewhere in FotR we read that the Haldir calls LEgolas 'our Norhtern kin' speaking either loosely in that the Lothlorien Elves and the Mirkwood Elves are both predominantly Silvan [ as is stated in UT several times re: the lothlorien Elves] or exactly in that Haldir is also a Sinda.

I think the UT references are later in JRRT's life [ late 50's to early 60's?] compared to the PoM-E appendices which would be late 40's early fifties.

Someone else may have more exact dates and info.

But it seems from the UT sources that the Avari/Silvan mix was replaced with Silvan Elves in Mirkwood and Lothlorien.

[ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Lothlorien was mainly made up of Noldor either of Galadriels following or of Eregion, who were admitted by Amdir.There problably were some Sindar there too, of Celeborn/Galadriel's following. There may have been some Elves of Avarin descent in either Lothlorien or Mirkwood, though they were proably a minority. A wandering Avarin family or two perhaps? Wandering Avari were quite common in Tolkien's early legedarium, for exampe, Eol was a Avarin elf, until he was made into a Sindar.

[Ultimatejoe]

Where did you get the impression that the Elves of Lothlorien are Noldor? The Noldor didn't live in trees, fought with swords and spears instead of bows, and had dark hair. The elves of Lothlorien didn't speak Quenya either, which is why Frodo couldn't understand them; surely a country of Noldorrin elves would speak Quenya and not Sindarin.

[Orald]

The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari;

but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan, and they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward [i.e. at the beginning of the Second Age]. Under the leadership of these they became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom. Thranduil father of Legolas of the Nine Walkers was Sindarin, and that tongue was used in his house, though not by all his folk.
In Lórien, where many of tile people were Sindar in origin, or Noldor, survivors from Eregion [see p. 255], Sindarin had become the language of all the people. In what way their Sindarin differed from the forms of Beleriand – see The Fellowship of the Ring II 6, where Frodo reports that the speech of the Silvan folk that they used among themselves was unlike that of the West – is now of course not known. It probably differed in little more than what would now popularly called "accent": mainly differences of vowel-sounds and intonation sufficient to mislead one who, as Frodo, was not well acquainted with purer Sindarin.

When Celeborn and Galadriel became the rulers of the Elves of the Lórien (who were mainly in origin Silvan Elves and called themselves the Galadhrim) the name of Galadriel became associated with trees, an association that was aided by the name of her husband, which also appeared to contain a tree-word; so that outside Lórien among those whose memories of the ancient days and Galadriel's history had grown dim her name was often altered to Galadhriel. Not in Lórien itself

One other thing, since the Avari were about half Teleri, half Noldor, they would probably go unnoticed if they were incorporated with the elves of Lenwë's following.

[ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: Durelen ]

[lindil]

I believe the half Noldorin Avari concept was discarded. In the last revision [ if memory serves me well it is in the WotJ ] the Avari were all said to be Teleri.

I will try and find source texts this evening if no one beats me to it.

[Lalaith]

I think the only Noldo we actually know of in Lorien is Galadriel herself. Celeborn was Sindarin, and their people were mostly a mix of Sindarin and Silvan. Legolas calls himself "a kinsman here" if you remember, that is because he too is a Sindarin. But I think the people his father ruled over were
Oh btw, Frodo did not understand Quenya at the time of LoTR. (Although I expect he learnt it subsequently.)
Queyna "Elvish Latin" and was in the Third Age rarely spoken on Middle Earth, is the language Galadriel speaks as they bid farewell to Lorien.
In the LotR appendices, the section "Of the Elves" explains that Frodo made an error thinking the elves of Lorien spoke another language. As Durelen's source says, it was simply Sindarin with an accent he didn't understand.
As we've discovered, the Avari question is very problematic, particularly given all the revisions the Professor made during the course of his long life.
In one source I read (I'll try to find an internet link in a sec) the Noldo Avari didn't like their posh Aman cousins. Also all the Avari felt betrayed by the Eldar, and called themselves "the Deserted."
Lindil, I'd be very interested to see what research you can find.

[doug*platypus]

The Avari would, over the ages, have diminished in power, and possibly stature, as did any Silvan elves who remained throughout the fourth age and never set sail. Being less powerful to begin with through having had no contact with Calaquendi or other Eldar, they would eventually have become little more than haunting forms on the edge of dreamlike visions to men. Thus becoming the lesser spirits, pixies, fays and such that we hear about in old legends (apart from powerful beings such as the Tuatha de Danann, who seem to have been descended from Eldar).

That, I believe, is the sole purpose that JRRT had in mind when he created the Avari, the elves who were unwilling. Otherwise, to tie up any loose ends in the story, he could have had them all wander west later like the Nandor.

[Lalaith]

Oh, and here are some relevant excerpts:
"750 Foundation of Imaldris (or Rivendell) and of Eregion (or Hollin) as dwellings of the Noldor or High Elves. Remnants of the Telerian Elves (of Doriath in ancient Beleriand) establish realms in the woodlands far eastward, but most of these people are Avari or East-elves. The chief of these were Thranduil who ruled in the orth of Greenwood the Great beyond Anduin, but Lorien was fairer and had the greater power; ... " tPoME p174
"There were also Elves of other kind. The East-elves that being content with Middle-earth remained there, and remain even now; and the Teleri, kinsfolk of the High Elves who never went westward, but lingered on the shores of Middle-earth until the return of the Noldor. [see note in orig] In the Third Age few of the Teleri were left, and they for the most part dwelt as lords among the East-elves in woodland realms far from the Sea, which nonetheless they longed for in their hearts. Of this kind were the Elves of Mirkwood, and of Lorien; but Galadriel was a lady of the Noldor." tPoME p74
"For there were other Elves of various kind in the world; and many were Eastern Elves that had hearkened to no summons to the Sea, but being content with Middle-earth remained there, and remained long after, fading in fastness of the woods and hills, as Men usurped the lands. Of that kind were the Elves of Greenwood the Great; yet among them also were many lords of Sindarin race. Such were Thranduil and Legolas his son." tPoME p79
It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand or were actually known to the Numenoreans." tPoME p312-313"62
[In Quendi and Eldar (XI.377) there is a reference to Avari `who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand fromt he South', and to rare cases of an Avar `who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar'; while in that essay Eol of Nan Elmoth was
an Avar (XI.409 and note 33).]" tPoME p328
"
Avari at Heart"...the Nandor had turned away, never seen the Sea or even Osse, and had become virtually Avari. They had also picked up various Avari before they came back west to Ossiriand." tWotJ 112"The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered peoples, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; [...] `and they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward [i.e. at the beginning of the Second Age]. Under the leadership of these they became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom.'" UT p256
Feeling of Abandonment"...wherever the descendants of *kwendi were found, they meant not `Elves in general', but were the names that the Avari gave to themselves. They had evidently continued to call themselves *kwendi, `the People', regarding those who went away as deserters..." tWotJ p410

[ January 24, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]
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[ January 24, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

[lindil]

Lailath:

As we've discovered, the Avari question is very problematic, particularly given all the revisions the Professor made during the course of his long life.

The situation we have here is identical with that of the thread which explored the labels of High-Elven/Eldar/Noldor etc.

JRRT's usage of the terms in bothcases seems to have been subtly nuanced at one moment only to be contradicted by a later detail and then revised yet again, etc, etc.


If we were to strike a mean balance [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] of all of this, I would hazard to say that the nandor/Silvan/Green-Elves did indeed pick up [ or were found by] the more adventurous or disconsolate Avari group here and there over the ages and that small groups were probably to be found within Lothlorien, Mirkwood/Greenwood, Harlindon and Dorthonion.

It would be great if someone with the time [ i.e. not me [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ] could set out the above quotes in as close to chronological order as can be ascertained.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

First a question: Dorthonion in Beleriand had some potentially Avarian elves? The Dorwinions from The Hobbit are I think best identified as Men, who like the Men of Dale were remnants of the Northmen-Rhovanions, who had once dwelt in the areas north and south of the entire course of the River Running early in the Third Age, but had in previous ages resided mostly farther to the North, before the spreading of dragons and orks in those regions, and were related to the Edain of Beleriand.

Also, among questions of Avari/east-elves, even JRRT seems to have semi-intentionally blurred the line in relation to the Teleri-Nandor (initially Noldor-Danian) off-shoot, which split off before crossing the Misty Mountains. Remember also that there were other offshoots and lingerers (almost exclusively Teleri) between the first and second sunderings.

Consistently, I would argue that the term "East-elves" and Eldar are not mutually exclusively. In fact, the Nandor, and later the Silvan Elves in large part, were to some degree both. But they were not true Eldar, nor true Avari.

The true Avari were probably either of all three kindreds or of none of the three kindreds, and at most, only some of their numbers had gone just a little way on the Great March before turning back completely and returning to Cuivenien. But later they did spread out, and some probably wondered westward and joined up with others (almost exclusively Teleri), who had not turned aside until having passed eastward of regions that became the Sea of Rhun and the lands around it.

Remember we're talking here about ages and ages of time, and not all elves are going to stay in once place in all that time.

The groups led by Lenwe south along the eastern side the Misty Mountains eventually spread (as well) into southern Eriador and probably into what became Gondor through at least the early Second Age. Recall that Shelob had once had Elven victims.

These were not safe areas, however. Morgoth and his creatures terrorized areas east of the Ered Luin, hence the removal of many if not most of these Elves to Ossiriand under Denethor's leadership. Later in the Second Age, these Nandorin elves of Eriador and the lower Anduin would have fallen victim to Sauron's hegemony as it issued out of Mordor.

Of those Nandor and later westward wonders who survived, but had not become Green-Elves of Beleriand, most ended up in the Upper Vales of Anduin, which Sauron tended to bypass. Here they acquired help from Grey and Green-Elves out of Beleriand, as well as Galadriel, and later some Noldorin refugees from Eregion. Quite probably, Amroth and his father were direct decendents of Lenwe.

Through the Second Age and Third Age these "Silvan Elves" tended to concentrate more and more in Lothlorien and ultimately in the Northeast sector of Greenwood the Great, especially when it became Mirkwood under the Necromancer's influence. The rise of Dol Guldor thus contributed to the decline of intercourse between these two remnant, but still -- throughout the Third Age -- thriving communities

Who were they then by this point? Still in large part "Eldarin" Nandor, to be sure, as would be necessary for explaining why Amroth, Nimrodel and others would have been drawn and allowed to pass over the Sea. Like Legolas, who might have been at least half-Nandor, these East-Eldar seem to have gone always through Gondor, where their ancestors may have also once wandered, whereas the Grey Havens seem mostly reserved for the more purely Beleriandic Eldar.

I would generally think that these Silvan Elves were not so much Nandorin in any pure or direct sense, however. Likely, they were augmented with other (Telerian) lingerers from the Great March east of Anduin, and so forth who had wondered westward, including perhaps a fair number of true Avari. They were also augmented with eastward-moving Laiquendi and Sindar, who desired to return to simpler ways and were entirely assimilated as part of Silvan society.

Arguably, this best describes the Wood-Elves (and raft-elves) of Thranduil's realm by the late Third-Age, which probably had significant representation from Beleriandic Elves or their decendents, who were perhaps indistinquishable from the others, but included no High-Elves. At the same time the great majority were probably more or less equally represented among those of Nandorin-blood and those of more eastern extraction. The language spoken there seems disputed. It may have been a surviving "Silvan" form of the orignal Elvish, but I'd posit that they mostly used the Common Speech, especially as they were not too terribly isolated from other peoples.

The Galathrim used a Sindarin dialect, and it seems likely that a great many of their numbers were Beleriandic. Perhaps more distinct from the main society, there might have still also been a small number of High-Elves there, to have at least given Galadriel some company. The majority seems to have been of Nandorin origin. Those of more eastern extraction represented a smaller portion than they would have in Thranduil's realm, but possibly were still quite common.

So, in summary, I see gradation and some non-certitude, which may not have been unacceptable to JRRT, in this situation.

These amalgamated realms of elves in Wilderland were something of an exception to the rule, in that by the time of the War of the Ring, they were not really fading but rather quite vibrant. Consequently, it was most appropriate that Legolas, rather than a Noldorin lord, was a member of the Fellowship. He was at least partially of Sindarin descent, but he was also of a Third-Age generation from Elfin lands that were still significant in the world at that time.

[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[lindil]

Re: Dorwinion, I had always assumed it was Elves from the Hobbit and later from the HoME3.

Upon looking for the exact reference in the Hobbit, I found this:

...for the Wood-Elves, and especially their king, were very fond of wine, though no vines grew in those parts. The wine and other goods were brought from far away, from their kinsfolk in the South, or from the vinyards of Men in distant lands.

So the particular wine in question could have come either from Men in Dorwinion or their Elven kin in the south, however the references in the HoME3 come from a time when I find it less likley that men would have in a mere 3-400 years cultivated feilds and engaged in Wine trading, I think it is more likely that the feilds were started by Elves and at somepoint [perhaps the incursions of the wainriders] abandoned by the Elves and taken over by Men.

Or by the time of the Hobbit, both Elves and Men in the same region were both trading with Erebor and Thranduil's realm.

The interesting point in the Hobbit, is that the 'Kinsfolk in the South',cannot refer to Lorien for 2 reasons. Celeborn and Legolas both refer to a[n extremely mysterious] communication/travel blackout between the realms.

Also The River Running does not connect with the Anduin at all, and flows to Dorwinion[located at the NW of the Sea of Rhun according to the P. Baynes map] and inot the Sea of Rhun itself.

Amazing what things one can dig up in The Hobbit.

[ January 26, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Excellent quote, Lindil. So, you did mean, DorWinion, which I think is simply a word from HoME III (and IV?) that got recycled, somewhat, and that The Hobbit's "Dorwinion" would have been much too far from Beleriand to be truly one and the same.

The quote is not directly linked to "Dorwionion," however. And, just because barrels went down the hole to Laketown, doesn't mean when full that all of them had orignated from that direction, or from much further down the River Running, per se. I'd presume the Lakemen took or bought any empty barrel, regardless of origin, and that it was not like a bottle deposit system. Used, but reusable containers like that would have belonged to the Elves, and have had value readibly recouped through middlemen. That's the way such businesses have worked for a long time. My family's did.

So, while doubtful, Lorien wine suppliers are not impossible, even if infrequent. Barrels could have been moved overland along the Old Forest Road to the River Running. But would full barrels have even been any more easily transported upstream on a river, compared to purely overland methods? Drawn barges might have worked well, I suppose.

In any case, I've seen references that (perhaps incorrectly) establish the Dorwinions as an eastward-flung remnant of the Northmen, and I'm sticking with it for now.

But I think your citation gives the definite suggestion of East-Elven kinfolk to the south, but probably farther east than Thranduil's realm, which would also support my position of the "relatively" more eastern/potentially more Avarian character of those Wood-Elves.

But even if we use the River Running as our point of reference, it travels very far to the SE before getting to Dorwinion, which I think would be more than "distant" enough to be the lands of Men so cited.

Therefore, I surmise that the elfin "kinfolk" in question might have dwelt south of the River Running at a more intermediate location, conceivably not really far to the east, but rather near the eastern eaves of middle Mirkwood.

[Lalaith]

If we were to go by the Hobbit alone, the Mirkwood elves sound like Avari.
Does anyone know what the dispute between dwarves and Mirkwood elves actually was? (It wasn't with Durin's Folk, that's all that's specified in the Hobbit...)
Btw there was a DorTHinion to the north of Beleriand. DorWinion was a different place altogether, and Pauline Baynes was instructed by Tolkien exactly where to put it on the map.

[lindil]

Man of the Wold, I don't think Dorwinion was recycled, the reference in lays [ actually one of several] says it was 'far' to the south. That fits with Dorwinion's palcement by JRRT at the NW area of [above] the Sea of Rhun, i.e at the confluence of the Sea and the River Running.

also, your jan 25 summary of the nandor and co. in Anduin/Mirkwood and gondor etc, was spot on.

I suggest submitting it as an Encyclopedia entry, with just a little modification.

As for the lorien traade route not being ruled out, I think Celeborn and Haldir's[?] words in the Lothlorien ch. of FotR show there was no communication/trade between the 2 relatively nearby Elven realms.

It is hard to imagine the lorien elves would trade with middle-MEN instead of Elves directly. Also the main-road through Mirkwood at the time of the Hobbit was supposedly broken down at the end, as was the northern elf-road.

Thid road surely must have been subject to severe Orc harrasment from DolGuldor, although the Hobbit map shows human stlements near the western end of it.
Perhaps Rhosgobel is one of these unlisted woodmen towns. Anyway it is hard to imagine the Lorien Elves [ who seem the ultimate M-E isolationists] trading with anyone except the Mirkwood Elves, whom as I mentioned earlier, were for some unknown reason incommunicado. I expect some serious bad-blood on the part of Thranduil and the Noldor/Galadriel.

Look how long he carried the Doriathrin anti-Dwarven sentiment! Why not still be ticked at the Noldor too!

The scenario I have postulated once before to explain the communication blackout is this - Thranduil was anti-Noldor as well as Anti-Dwarven; the communication break with Lorien could be explained by his upset at Lorien's close ally being Rivendell instead of himself. Rivendell/Elrond were the subject of his wrath because Elrond [and possibly Lorien] had taken in the last members of the household of Feanor from Eregion. So it all goes back to the 2 assaults on Doriath, and prejudice's he inherited from his father [mentioned in Orophir not wanting to take orders from Gil-Galad.

So, his words to gandalf as he and Bilbo head West, could be a sign of rapproachment with Gandalf and all of his allies. This is shown by the fact that he sent Legolas to the Council of Elrond.

In support of the previously harsh stance against the Lorien/Imladris Elves could have been the possibly Avari predominant Southern Kin/'Dorwinion' Elves.

We read in a few places that some of the Avari felt betrayed by the Eldar, and also in UT that some of the Doriathin lords [Oropher, seemingly cheif among them] wanted to return to a life free of valinorean influence. This would have put them cleanly at odds with the western Elven communities, especially as the Istari arrived and held counsel with them.

actually I just found the quote.

The Silvan Elves ruled by Thranduil retreated before it [the shadow of the Necromancer] as it spread ever Northward, until at last he established his realm in the North-East of the forest...Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves...this they did delibrately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named*) came from Doriath after its ruin and no desire to leave Middle-Earth, nor to be merged with the other sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Lorien had no great love. they wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it.

Other points of contention could have been the Feanorians again creating chaos [ this time by Celebrimbor's forging of the Rings and being duped by Sauron] and Thranduil's learning that galadriel had not created her Girdle by Melian means, but was using Sauronian and Feanorian 'technology' to create an Elvish paradise. Complete with [at least some] refugee's from Eregion, among whom may well have been 'kinslayers unrepentant' of the household Feanor.

Another curiosity in support of my theory is that gandalf did not route the trip through Thranduil's kingdom to start with, he had planned on taking them through the Forest road.

After receiving help from Beorn he seems to have set the Dwarves up for a run in, knowing thranduil's realm was at the end of the road [ and Thorin and Balin at least should have known it too!], possibly hoping that all would work out, but he certainly did not include any instructions as he left them for dealing with a touchy and suspicious Thranduil!


So... the only trade [I think] happening with thranduil's realm [till after the defeat of Sauron] was on a North-South corridor with Elves and Men in the Dorwinion area.

So what we have are:
*Men making wine in Dorwinion in the Hobbit.

*Wine in Dorwinion in HoME 3 [ race of viticulturists unknown].

*Elven kin of the Mirkwood Elves to the 'south' in the Hobbit.

I do not think 'South' meant southern mirkwood, at least not in large enough numbers to trade much with.

Southern Mirkwood was almost certainly all controlled or at least terrorized by the Necromancer and the Nazgul.

Indeed we read [ in UT] of a drift north from the Necromancer, and another sore point between the Lorien and Mirkwood communities could be that Thranduil asked for aid in attacking Dol Guldor and Lorien may have said no, and then the Elves packed up and went to the north.

[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Lalaith]

Very interesting points, lindil.
It seems to me that the elven communities of the Third Age had all become isolated and insular. People have mentioned the lapse of communication between Lorien and Mirkwood. Think also of Celeborn warning the travellers about Fangorn (and having seemingly forgotten about the Ents, which he should not have done as they fought on the side of right in the First Age...)
Legolas, although very in tune with nature and the environment, also seems to have little idea of what we would now term, current affairs.
And Elrond, wisest of the wise, has only the haziest idea about Tom Bombadil.
I wonder where the Mirkwood elves were at the time of the storming of Dol Guldur?
Was the dwarf/elf dispute a Beleriand one? I thought the one referred to in the Hobbit was of more recent origin.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think there was proably a Elven population in Dorwinion, and the 'southern kinsfolk' couldn't have been Lothlorein, since Lothlorien hadn't been concieved by then. Here is an intresting article on Dorwinion for anyone intrested:
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~l...en/Fr_Ind.html

[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[lindil]

Was the dwarf/elf dispute a Beleriand one?

The Assault on Doriath over the Silmarill is what is implied. The only details I recall from the Hobbit are that it was not the House of Durin [ it wasn't, it was the ogrodian Dwarves, either the Firebeards or Broaddbeams, JRRT never says which I think] and it was long ago [c.6000 years!]

I don't think Celeborn had so much forgotten about the Ents has knew they were not all tame. Remember Merry and pippin's, words to the three 'Hunters' - that they should be terrified to meet Huorns unless there were true Ents around to watch after them. I think that was Celeborn's gist.

Not that they were not isolated from each other. The Lorien community had become blissed out and introspective.

Heck, I wouldn't have left either!
Except to sail over Sea when it faded.

But I quite agree with your other points Lailath.

One thing which I was always disturbed about was that the White COuncil was seemingly only Gandalf, Saruman, Rivendell and Lorien [ and perhaps the Grey havens].

It could have been more, I suppose, but the impression we are left with is that the Northern and Southern Dunedain and the Mirkwood Elves and Rohan are out of the loop, this is unfortunate as it could have been an excellent vehicle for maintaining communication and cultural exchange. But instad it reinforced what Agent Elrond termed the 'thin list of Allies'.

It was much bigger, the Northern elite however had ceased trying to trust anyone.

It is a wonder that Denethor let Boromir or Faramir go, especially as the dream mentioned a 'sword that was broken', a clear reference that meant his rival Thorongil could have been involved.

[Ultimatejoe]

How would Denethor draw the connection between Thorongil and Narsil? It is highly unlikely Aragorn would have taken it to Gondor; let alone have Denethor become aware of it considering his readings.

[lindil]

denethor had figured out [according to the LotR appendices] that Thorongil was Northern Dunedain and Aragorn peceiving his animosity left Gondor right after a succsesful raid on Umbar. Later in the RotK, he accuses Gandalf of trying to bring up a ranger of the North 'to supplant him'.

Denthor would have rightly guessed that Thorngil with his 'air of nobility' was Arthedainian royalty, and also would have known that if anyone had 'the sword that was broken' [it was known to Boromir in the Council of Elrond]it would be Thorongil.

Plus Denethor had the palantir and probably saw it and him in Rohan long after he had figured it out anyway [he clearly implies that he used it to know what had already transpired in Rohan]. I would imagine the statuary in Gondor would have depicted in accurate detail the distinctive characteristics of Narsil.

On a related [ but still way off-topic [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] note] Denethor may have allowed Boromir to go, hoping for real aid in the war, recalling Thorongil's successful assalt on Umbar. it could be that instead of recieving troops from the North [from either the Dunedain or Rivendell, both of whom he knew existed] and was incensed when only Thorongil, Aragorn and Elf, Dwarf and 2 halflings [all seen in the Palantir] came south. Essentially to his mind, Thorongil may have been perceived as more interested in claiming the throne during war than bringing in serious re-inforcments.
The last time Arnor and Gondor had had official communication was probably the help Earanur took to Battle the Witch-King.

So the North could be seen, in Denethor's eyes to be in debt to the South, and now the South was asking for help [via Boromir] in as direct a fashion as [their substantial] pride would allow.

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

My goodness that's a lot of chatter in less than 24hrs. Thanks for the compliments on the Jan. 25 Post. I'll try to remember to figure out how to do Encylpedia submissions; your minor changes, please.

I'm much too fuzzy headed to organize all thoughts, but let me say:

1. That the Beleriandic references to Dorwinion and the Dowinion of The Hobbit may not be merely coincidental, but I think that that has to go into the whatever category. My impression of the First Age is that such far-flung trade would have been quite extraordinary.

2. I agree and would really discount the possibility that the reference to kinfolk to the south could mean Lothlorien. Though, remember, this is still 80 years before the comment in the LoTR, and Celeborn may have referred more to direct political communication, not incidental contact among merchants. I know that the original Sindarin colonists were sort of anti-Noldor, back-to-basics types, but I don't see where by this time Thranduil would have necessarily had serious grivances against Galadriel. I would if anything attribute the state of in communicado to Lothlorien's insularity, as a rather unique place.

3. As for the Old Forest Road, it was rumoured to have had some deterioration at its Eastern end, but Gandalf was wrong about Rohan's equine tribute to Mordor, too. Whatever, the nature of the encroachment my marshes or what not, it may not have been very troubling to more regular wayfarers, who had found less obvious, alternative ruouts. It was also probably the sort of development that came and went. Surely, rather than the proprietary Elf Path, it was subsequently the road of choice, with the Woodmen at one end and the Men of Dale/Laketown helping to maintain the eastern side.

4. As for middleMen, the Wood-Elves were clearly undertaking a huge part of their commerce through Laketown. Barrels are barrels. Doesn't seem the Lakemen had many other customers left, to boot.

5. As for the Elfin kinfolk to the South, I would again submit that even from Laketown to Dorwinion was an extreme distance for the transport of heavy commodities, and I did not mean to suggest that the kinfolk were near southern Mirkwood, but rather the mid-section. Mirkwood was really rather long from North to South, and except for the areas that became East Lorien, I would assume that like the Woodmen and Thranduil's people, that Elves could live in other fringe areas. Northmen had once passed west from the area of the East Bight. The spiders encountered by Bilbo may have been there at the Necromancer's behest, specifically because of Elven Kingdom. In any case, there are long stretches of areas along the Running River, which the map shows as blank in a way that suggests that we don't know what's there. The kinfolk could have been in many potential locations East and South of Thranduil's realm.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

On the history of the old Elf road.Wasn't that the road that Orome lead the Elves through Mirkwood,during their great journey?

[Ultimatejoe]

I don't think they travelled by road; there were thousands of Elves by that point.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Whose to say that they didn't march in small companies? It was usually the Teleri who were lagging behind, who made up about half the group and how could they march though Green/Mirkwood without using a road of some sort?

[Lalaith]

I cannot now remember where I read this, so I'm sorry I can't give a source, but the old forest road through Mirkwood was that used on the Great Journey.

[lindil]

Actually, I would imagine that it was the march that made the road, by dent of thousands of folks walking over the same area.

Seriously, do you think Orome did it all his lonesome? Or a few of Morgoth's nasties?

Who else could have done it?

Roads through massive size forests don't just appear, they are made by travel.

[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Yes, I think any ancient route of the Elves' Great Journey would correspond to what is called the Great Forest Road, which then was supposed to link up with the East-West road of Eriador, assuming Orks did not hold the pass against you.

I must revise my last post, in that reading The Illustrated Hobbit (excellent) to my daughter, I see that it is Beorn (not Gandalf) who reports how marshes had encroached on the Eastern End of that Road.

Despite his certitude in this regard, Beorn also submits other reasons for the Dwarves not to go that way. So, one may assume that the marshes alone were not an absolute barrier, and not necessarily a very longstanding one.

Presumably, the Old Forest Road was very broad and in that way was not easily overrun by the evil power infecting Mirkwood.

The Elf-Path was a creation of Thranduil's peoples to be sure, and not too ancient, and it was protected by Magic as a way for those Wood Elves if needed to still to send messages westward.

Aside from the Elves' prickly ownership of the path, for large groups or commerce, it would have been very inefficient. The chapter "Flies and Spiders" indicates that it was narrow and "wound in and out among the trunks." I would further submit, given the slowness of Thorin & Co. there, that it also weaved back & forth on a larger scale not readily apparent to the Dwarves in the gloom, but still too fine to be represented on the Wilderland map. This may have been part of a trade-off associated with the enchantment that kept its slender course immune from Mirkwood effects.

As for the Old Forest Road, I would surmise that later with the Rise of Dale and the organization of Men by Beorn, the Old Forest Road was fully restored and kept relative safe for travel, and that that was how movement between the Lonely Mountains and the Western Lands was undertaken after Bilbo's adventure. Alternatively, perhaps, the route around the Northern End of Mirkwood remained passable, but even if so, I'd think the Old Forest Road also became a relatively more useable and regular means of commerce.

Bilbo's adventure seems to have caused or related to the deminishment of a lot of evil in those regions. And, even if a feigned retreat for Sauron, his leaving Dol Guldor probably meant that the Necromancer's evil influence and threat was more contained from North.