Gandalf vs. Sauron (Hobbit Movie Spoilers)

[TheLostPilgrim]

In the latest Hobbit film, we see something utterly ridiculous, something that never happened--and would never happen--in the books: A duel between Gandalf and Sauron. And Gandalf, despite holding his own briefly, is quickly trounced and imprisoned. It is a cheap magic battle straight out of Harry Potter or Dungeons & Dragons.

While again, this would never happen in the books...IF it did happen, if Gandalf and Sauron had indeed fought, I have some questions:

1) If Gandalf was put into a situation where he was face to face with Sauron, would it have been permitted by Eru/The Valar, for him to uncloak himself and use the full might of his power, as we got an inkling of in his battle with the Balrog? Would that have been an acceptable time for him to "lift the veil" of Gandalf and allow the power of Olorin to be in full might?

2) Could Gandalf "uncloaked" have defeated Sauron?

I ask since, technically speaking, Gandalf and Sauron are kin; Both Maiar, and thus both of the same kind and (theoretically) strength. Gandalf was one of the people of Manwe, who is equal in strength to Morgoth, whom Sauron served--This too would seem as evidence that Gandalf and Sauron were "on equal footing" so to speak.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

1) Personal opinion: theoretically, I don't see a reason why Gandalf couldn't use his full power (or, as much power as his mortal incarnation allowed him) if facing such a challenge. It would not be entirely appropriate, but he could go as far as he had gone with Balrog - but then, just like with Balrog, he might have died. Only after that it would be up to Eru to reconsider whether to send him back to finish his task.

Personally, I don't think it so unimaginable: let us imagine that really Gandalf would have encountered and dueled Sauron in Dol Guldur. Sauron could not be totally annihilated - there was the Ring still existing somewhere - but he could be defeated and in such case, he would flee and have to recuperate for longer time (much longer than he had to in the "real historical" scenario where he merely fled from Dol Guldur to rebuild his strength in Mordor). Given that, Gandalf might be allowed to return (especially if the treachery of Saruman and lack of good "leading figure" among the Istari would be already foreseen by Eru or the Powers) in order to be around to finish off Sauron later on, when the Ring would finally be found.

2) Also personal opinion - I believe yes, under certain circumstances. It is clear that Sauron was not equally strong all the time, and let us remember, he was actually hiding in Dol Guldur (that much PJ did right... even though in a bit awkward way). Also, after all, Sauron eventually fled from Dol Guldur in the face of White Council's assault - it remains questionable whether Sauron would have acted differently were the battle with Gandalf alone, as opposed to the prospect of battling the whole Council, which seemed to be too much for him (but then again, we have to take into account he certainly wasn't alone in Dol Guldur, there were at least two Ringwraiths from what the UT seems to imply, and one can guess on some armies of Orcs etc., then again nobody knows what forces did really the Council have... a long time ago, I had started a thread on this topic, I believe, which can probably still be found in case of interest).

I would say that at least in the "Dol Guldur-phase", Sauron would have felt vulnerable and it would have been, the way I imagine it, even possible for Gandalf to defeat him. After all, they were both Maiar, strong, Gandalf's power was largely diminished by his mortal form, but then again, Sauron was weakened and without the Ring; and after all, we know that Gandalf faced a quite "advanced" Maia (Durin's Bane) and defeated him. That's not to say anything about Gandalf's possible injuries/death, of course, just like with the Balrog. I believe we can also conclude a lot from the fact that Sauron was hiding from the Wise, but also Gandalf was (unlike in PJ's movie) actually obviously intentionally avoiding confronting Sauron after discovering his identity in Dol Guldur; so we can imagine the powers of the two might have been pretty balanced: if Gandalf e.g. had clear superiority, we could imagine him facing Sauron in Dol Guldur upon the discovery who the Necromancer really was (though it also doesn't feel much like Gandalf to make such rash moves, but the issue of the balance of power would certainly be a factor as well - too risky for both sides to try a full confrontation at that point).

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

1) If Gandalf was put into a situation where he was face to face with Sauron, would it have been permitted by Eru/The Valar, for him to uncloak himself and use the full might of his power, as we got an inkling of in his battle with the Balrog? Would that have been an acceptable time for him to "lift the veil" of Gandalf and allow the power of Olorin to be in full might?

Perhaps as Gandalf the White. See Letter 156: "where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel'". As Gandalf the Grey I don't think it would have really been within his purview - more appropriate to flee from Sauron than risk the kind of disastrous Ainu-vs-Ainu conflict his presence was specifically supposed to avoid. By the time of the War, however, he was operating more or less directly on behalf of Eru Himself, hence his increase in power and the reduction of the limitations imposed upon him by the Valar.

2) Could Gandalf "uncloaked" have defeated Sauron?

Personally, I don't think so. In Letter 246 Professor Tolkien observes that "It would be a delicate balance" in a conflict between Sauron and Gandalf in which Gandalf was wielding the Ring. Thus I think it stands to reason that Gandalf is only as powerful as Sauron if he (Gandalf) is using the Ring. Without this advantage it doesn't seem likely to me, cloaked or uncloaked. Regardless of how much Sauron had diminished his strength by the end of the Third Age, he was still very mighty compared to every other being dwelling in Middle-earth by that time: "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still." "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." (emphasis mine) It's worth remembering that at Dol Guldur, Sauron was not overpowered but rather pretended to be so that he could fool the Council into thinking that he was fleeing when actually he was returning to his old strength in Mordor - see for instance Appendix B, the entry for 2941: "Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur." This was a calculated move. The White Council did not drive Sauron from Mirkwood: he wanted to leave, and their assault was a convenient way of lulling his enemies into a false sense of security. That doesn't prove that Sauron could have overpowered the entire Council had he wanted to, but it doesn't prove that he couldn't either. Similarly, when Sauron fled to Rhûn during Gandalf's first expedition to Dol Guldur in 2063, it would seem to me that he did so not out of fear of being overpowered by him, but rather because he did not want his enemies to learn of his identity and thus take serious action against him until he was ready. Gandalf did not discover that the Master of Dol Guldur "was indeed Sauron" until 2850. I think as a general rule there was more to his back-and-forth as the Necromancer than simply wanting to avoid having to duke it out with a Wizard.

Gandalf was one of the people of Manwe, who is equal in strength to Morgoth, whom Sauron served--This too would seem as evidence that Gandalf and Sauron were "on equal footing" so to speak.

As we've discussed in the thread about the Maiar, however, Sauron was of a "far higher order" than Gandalf (and Saruman). In addition, Manwë was not Morgoth's equal in power. According to "Myths Transformed" Manwë was "a little less great." The same text also states that Melkor, originally, "must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined", which was why he could never be fully defeated, and only defeated as a person after wasting so much of his power corrupting the earth. He was not "controllable and on a power-level with the Valar" until the Battle of the Powers. By his original nature he was much stronger. What's more, Sauron was (as we have also discussed in the other thread) originally a servant of Aulë, not Morgoth (who seemingly had no Maiar of his own), so the Gandalf/Sauron Manwë/Morgoth comparison doesn't really work.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

we know that Gandalf faced a quite "advanced" Maia (Durin's Bane) and defeated him.

"Advanced" in what sense, though? While undoubtedly formidable opponents, Balrogs to me seem rather diminished compared to uncorrupted Maiar, being trapped in physical bodies and unlike, say, Sauron, lacking enough spiritual vigour to remake them. A Balrog killed once seems to stay dead forever.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

1) If Gandalf was put into a situation where he was face to face with Sauron, would it have been permitted by Eru/The Valar, for him to uncloak himself and use the full might of his power, as we got an inkling of in his battle with the Balrog? Would that have been an acceptable time for him to "lift the veil" of Gandalf and allow the power of Olorin to be in full might?

I do not think so. I seem to recall that it was not their mission to battle Sauron like that. Remember, the Valar were wary of an all out, no holds barred Maia vs. Maia type of war since battles like that tended to reshape the world. The Istari were sent to rally the free peoples of the world to fight this battle. They were:

"bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron... would endeavor to dominate and corrupt." [UT, The Istari, p. 406]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

2) Could Gandalf "uncloaked" have defeated Sauron?

I ask since, technically speaking, Gandalf and Sauron are kin; Both Maiar, and thus both of the same kind and (theoretically) strength. Gandalf was one of the people of Manwe, who is equal in strength to Morgoth, whom Sauron served--This too would seem as evidence that Gandalf and Sauron were "on equal footing" so to speak.

I do not think Gandalf could have defeated Sauron. I think the Istari themselves were lesser in power as the Maia were supposed to be to the Valar. There is mention of the Valar sending a lesser spirit, Eonwe, to deal with Melkor, just as now they sent lesser spirits to deal with Sauron. Gandalf himself says, "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still." [TTT, ch. 5 p. 123] And this is after he beat the Balrog of Moria which Gandalf supposes anyone who saw it would have;

"thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leapt back broken into tongues of fire. Is that not enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain." [ p. 125]

It's like the meeting of two fronts.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

In the latest Hobbit film, we see something utterly ridiculous, something that never happened--and would never happen--in the books: A duel between Gandalf and Sauron. And Gandalf, despite holding his own briefly, is quickly trounced and imprisoned. It is a cheap magic battle straight out of Harry Potter or Dungeons & Dragons.

While again, this would never happen in the books...IF it did happen, if Gandalf and Sauron had indeed fought, I have some questions:

1) If Gandalf was put into a situation where he was face to face with Sauron, would it have been permitted by Eru/The Valar, for him to uncloak himself and use the full might of his power, as we got an inkling of in his battle with the Balrog? Would that have been an acceptable time for him to "lift the veil" of Gandalf and allow the power of Olorin to be in full might?

2) Could Gandalf "uncloaked" have defeated Sauron?



I ask since, technically speaking, Gandalf and Sauron are kin; Both Maiar, and thus both of the same kind and (theoretically) strength. Gandalf was one of the people of Manwe, who is equal in strength to Morgoth, whom Sauron served--This too would seem as evidence that Gandalf and Sauron were "on equal footing" so to speak.

It's not the first time that the Jackson films have pitted Gandalf against enemies in a way that didn't happen in the books. In the extended film version of "The Return of the King", the Lord of the Nazgul was on the very brink of defeating Gandalf when the Riders of Rohan arrived.

[tom the eldest]

I realizes that pj always put gandalf on bridge battle.here the list:

1.fotr(vs the balrog)
2.auj(vs great goblin)
3.dos(vs sauron)

Anyway,if gandalf are permitted to use his full power and fight sauron,idependon whatversion of sauron.remember,over the ages,sauron get weaker and weaker,after his first defeat,it took him quite sometime to regain his bodies,second time,it took him even longer,then when the fall of numenor,he cannot assume fair shape anymore.it just like morgoth,he pour so much of his essence to his minions,he gradually became weaker(with the fact that he get his body destroyed a lot of times).initially,morgoth were able to defeat every single valar until tulkas came single-handedly,but later,fingon managed to evade his blows and even wound him seven times.so,if its first age sauron,sauron wins,second age sauron maybe,in the third age,gandalf has a chance.