The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Movies
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-05-2012, 02:03 PM   #41
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,312
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry View Post
And for anyone into New Age stuff, one of the influential books is A Course in Miracles, in which a psychology professor alleges to channel a new message from Jesus. And it's entirely in a mishmash of KJB English.
Because everybody knows that the Aramaic language Jesus spoke sounds strongly like Eliza Doolittle in Pygmalion:

“Bless'd are 'em what are poor in spirit,
for 'em is what gets th' kingdom of 'Eaven.
Bless'd are 'em what mourn,
for 'em will be roight comforted.
Bless'd are 'em what are meek,
for 'em is what will in'erit th' earth....
__________________
Please visit my newly resurrected blog...The Dark Elf File...a slightly skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2012, 03:53 PM   #42
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,804
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuruharan View Post
Tempting as that theory is, I think it would be easy to overstate the influence of the Bard in that way.

I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that in the English speaking world the cultural antecedents during the middle ages were largely in England.
Largely, but as Bethberry says, not wholly. And I think a lot of Americans (for example) still retain a very strong sense of their heritage which could have been from a number of places - Germany, Norway, Russia, Italy, Ireland...etc... Though with the main language used in the New World being English then if people from all kinds of places did look back to the origins of the English language, that goes to show how powerful an influence language was over a whole culture, even a new one.

Again, I wonder if things are different in say Montreal, New Orleans or Florida, which had other, stronger language influences than English. Would people with a long background in these places automatically think of English if they cast their minds back to the years before the Americas were colonised?

It's interesting though, that representations of 'medieval' culture from modern American (or made with the American market in mind) films, TV etc often have a more Germanic/European feel to them than an English one, despite the language. The knights are more elaborately fitted out, more colourful, and there is much more pageantry. This all came quite late, really, to English kings, as they were so busy killing one another for the throne or killing other kings and 'saracens' from 1066 onwards.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2012, 09:06 PM   #43
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 7,417
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
Because everybody knows that the Aramaic language Jesus spoke sounds strongly like Eliza Doolittle in Pygmalion:

“Bless'd are 'em what are poor in spirit,
for 'em is what gets th' kingdom of 'Eaven.
Bless'd are 'em what mourn,
for 'em will be roight comforted.
Bless'd are 'em what are meek,
for 'em is what will in'erit th' earth....
You can at least do Eliza justice - her pronunciation wasn't half that good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lal
It's interesting though, that representations of 'medieval' culture from modern American (or made with the American market in mind) films, TV etc often have a more Germanic/European feel to them than an English one, despite the language. The knights are more elaborately fitted out, more colourful, and there is much more pageantry. This all came quite late, really, to English kings, as they were so busy killing one another for the throne or killing other kings and 'saracens' from 1066 onwards.
Well, since knighthood never had the chance to enter America, all of those films have to have a Brittish accent (the ones about knights). And I suppose the rest kind of followed.
__________________
- These taxes, they are like sacrifices to tribal gods?
- Well, roughly speaking, but paying taxes is more painful.
Doctor Who: The Sun Makers
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:42 PM   #44
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,583
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
It's interesting though, that representations of 'medieval' culture from modern American (or made with the American market in mind) films, TV etc often have a more Germanic/European feel to them than an English one, despite the language. The knights are more elaborately fitted out, more colourful, and there is much more pageantry. This all came quite late, really, to English kings, as they were so busy killing one another for the throne or killing other kings and 'saracens' from 1066 onwards.
Film is a visual medium. The more elaborate something is the more visually impressive.

And accuracy has never been very high on a film-maker's to do list.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 06:24 AM   #45
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,480
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Quote:
And I think a lot of Americans (for example) still retain a very strong sense of their heritage which could have been from a number of places - Germany, Norway, Russia, Italy, Ireland...etc... Though with the main language used in the New World being English then if people from all kinds of places did look back to the origins of the English language, that goes to show how powerful an influence language was over a whole culture, even a new one.

Again, I wonder if things are different in say Montreal, New Orleans or Florida, which had other, stronger language influences than English. Would people with a long background in these places automatically think of English if they cast their minds back to the years before the Americas were colonised?
Not necessarily– but we are talking about English-language productions, aren't we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuruhuran
Film is a visual medium. The more elaborate something is the more visually impressive.
And it helps distinguish it from all those ultra-cheap 80s sword-n-sorcery flicks...
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2012, 04:30 PM   #46
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,804
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuruharan View Post
Film is a visual medium. The more elaborate something is the more visually impressive.

And accuracy has never been very high on a film-maker's to do list.
Does it need to be impressive though? A Game of Thrones is a huge success but it's quite low on the visuals, compared to most US output. The joust scene in the first series was hardly epic, more like something the BBC would turn out - and I think the producers of the series Merlin would have made it more 'visually stunning' (and the books give the impression of lots more colour/pageantry, too). An amazing script and cast can mean the SFX and art department needn't cost mega bucks. Also see: Robin of Sherwood for high impact but less showy 'historical' drama.

I think it's because there are different perceptions or audience expectations of the period, not always, certainly nowadays, limited to which country is making the drama, but in the past it seems to have been. It might be a British thing to react with distaste if something isn't accurate (I couldn't enjoy The Kings Speech for example because it's simply wrong). Certainly our re-enactment societies are a completely different kettle of fish to the fun that seems to be had at Ren Fairs.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2012, 07:31 PM   #47
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 7,417
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
While carefully spending precious homework time on the olden days of the Downs, I stumbled onto this post by SPM where he quotes the Letters with Tolkien's own opinion on accents:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man View Post
Quote:
I found myself in a carriage occupied by an R.A.F. officer ... and a very nice young American Officer, New Englander ... After I told him that his 'accent' sounded to me like English after being wiped over with a dirty sponge, and generally suggested (falsely) to an English observer that, together with American slouch, it indicated a slovenly and ill-disciplined people - well, we got on quite friendly. We had some bad coffee in the refreshment room at Snow Hill, and parted.

Letter #58
Well, I have to admit that he had a point.
__________________
- These taxes, they are like sacrifices to tribal gods?
- Well, roughly speaking, but paying taxes is more painful.
Doctor Who: The Sun Makers
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 06:56 PM   #48
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,583
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
A Game of Thrones is a huge success but it's quite low on the visuals, compared to most US output. The joust scene in the first series was hardly epic, more like something the BBC would turn out - and I think the producers of the series Merlin would have made it more 'visually stunning' (and the books give the impression of lots more colour/pageantry, too). An amazing script and cast can mean the SFX and art department needn't cost mega bucks. Also see: Robin of Sherwood for high impact but less showy 'historical' drama.
Interesting you should mention that but it is a factor regarding Game of Thrones that the critics almost always make mention of what they tactfully refer to as "budgetary constraints" which is newspeak for "We want things to be more showy."
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2012, 05:11 AM   #49
Alfirin
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
Alfirin has been trapped in the Barrow!
For the most part I agree with Lalwende (except maybe about the HBO thing, in my area HBO is bundled into the standard cable package, you have cable, you have HBO, and I imagine similar arrangements exist in a lot of other areas of the US. but no matter.) If I may use a non-Tolkein example; amongst my collection of well loved audio CD's are a selection of adaptation done by the Atlanta Radio Theatre company of some of the stories of H.P. Lovecraft. One of the big reasons I love these recordings so much is that the Atlanta Radio Theatre company actually took the time to make the accents sound appropriate to the characters given thier region and characters. Armitige sounds like a Boston Brahmin (which is I suppose as close as you can get to a real world to the accent of an Arkham academic), Obed Marsh sounds like a Nantucket Whaler/Shipper (aka a "Captain Ahab" accent) etc.
Alfirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2012, 09:00 AM   #50
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,038
Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfirin View Post
Armitige sounds like a Boston Brahmin (which is I suppose as close as you can get to a real world to the accent of an Arkham academic),
Do you mean like Charles Emerson Winchester III from MASH?
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2012, 09:26 AM   #51
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,312
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry View Post
Do you mean like Charles Emerson Winchester III from MASH?
Or Katharine Hepburn referring to her fondness for callalilies.
__________________
Please visit my newly resurrected blog...The Dark Elf File...a slightly skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2012, 02:05 PM   #52
Alfirin
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
Alfirin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
Or Katharine Hepburn referring to her fondness for callalilies.
Actually I meant a little like Ted Kennedy; I think I may have gotten confused as to what a "Boston Brahmin" accent is. Larchmont Lockjaw I'm good at, but I get a little foggy outside of my range.
Alfirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2012, 08:25 AM   #53
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,583
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots Dwarves!

I thought of an example when an accent used in a fantasy setting wasn't British.

In the Dragon Age universe created by Bioware for their game series of the same name, the dwarves are given American accents. The dwarf party character from the first game, Oghren, sounds like he came straight out of West Texas.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:12 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.