when Gandalf died

[Elassar 516]

when Gandalf died and was reincarnated what happened to his possessions? He still had Glamdring and Narya, and I don't remember reading that he had a new staff. Does that mean his spirit came back to the old body, because that is just weird, he had been dead for nearly three weeks. Plus it would just seem right for him to have a new body, he is Gandalf the white now.

[Finwe]

Could you supply a quote that says that Gandalf was dead for three weeks? I don't recall it saying that anywhere in the Books.

[Gurthang]

Remember when Saruman died? His body shriveled up into almost nothing. Perhaps Gandalf's old body did the same. Then he was put in a new body and placed in the same position. And look their lay his sword and his ring close at hand! Of the staff, I know naught. It was broken on the bridge of Khazad-dum, but other than that...

[Olorin_TLA]

Yeah but Saruman's death was horrific...I think he died like that, shrivelling like a rapidly decaying horrid corpse, becayse he was damned.

[symestreem]

According to RotK appendices, Finwe, Gandalf "passes away" on January 25. He returns to life on February 14 for a total of 19 days "away", almost three weeks.
Isn't it possible that Gandalf returned to his old body? Then he would have had all his accoutrements. In the book his beard is still grey, but his hair is white. Probably from stress. Although I can't imagine why he would be under any stress. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] As for his staff, I think he acquired it when he was "away". Or it was waiting for him in Lorien. He got his white robes in Lorien, according to TTT.

......his/her evidence didn't come from the book. but no matter. i think it was his old body, what need would there be for a new one when the old one had not been damaged? it was old, but didn't have to last long in any case. he fell, through fire and water indeed, but it doesn't say his body was broken at the end of the fall. i agree with the comment that saruman was burned because he was damned, burning does not seem to be looked on as a commendable way of passing in any of the books (the six, not erroneous three of Lord of the Rings!) legolas, gimli and aragorn had no trouble in recognising gandalf when he returned, this at least suggests he was in the same body, though it may be a presence of his aura or personality was perceived, though this would have been explained in greater detail if it were so, i guess [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. his staff was broken, but to me at least staffs are a representation of the wizard, not the other way around. so his staff was rebuilt, mended, or remade and the same power put into it (though purer, since he is now gandalf the white). and of course he was clothed, since fire would have burned away his clothes at the very least (rather undignified for a wizard [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ...)

[Rasputin]

a mangled wooden staff is not fitting for the lead wizard. So i guess higher powers thought it would be appropriate for him to have a nice steel staff.

Well, ok but when Gandalf was Olorin back in Valinor did he look like..you know, Istari old man rip van winkle? or did all of them take that guise when they came to middle-earth? The point of that is, if so, then I guess he would keep all his posessions.

[Elassar 516]

I had forgotten that his staff was broken on the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, which would imply that he got a new one. Also Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would have recognized his staff and not taken him for Sarauman (I believe Gimli threatens to make an incureable dent in his hat [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) although, you can never be to careful, especialy when dealing with wizards. Also I forgot to put this in the original post, on the Bridge of Khazad-Dum when Gandalf says 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wieldor of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the shadow , you cannot pass.'what exactly does all that mean. I suppose it doesn't really have to do with wheather he got a new body or not, but I've always wondered what it meant and it happenes right before his death.

[Arwen Imladris]

'I am a servant of the Secret Fire'

This could be refuring to two things. One is Gandalf's elven ring, narya, the ring of fire. However it is more likely that he is refuring to the Flame Imperishable, the source of life that only Iluvatar could give.

'Wieldor of the flame of Anor. '

Anor means 'the Sun', and so literally the 'flame of Anor' would be the flame of the Sun. This could mean the fruit of Laurelin, one of the Two Trees of Valinor.

'The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun.'

This seems to simply be a name for balrog, however it could also be refuring to 'Udûn', Morgoth's oldest and greatest fortress in the north of the World, more commonly called Utumno.

Hope that helps.

[Rosenberg]

Well, ok but when Gandalf was Olorin back in Valinor did he look like..you know, Istari old man rip van winkle? or did all of them take that guise when they came to middle-earth? The point of that is, if so, then I guess he would keep all his posessions.

I'm fairly certain that as a Maiar in the physical realm, that Olorin, Curinor, and the rest would have looked like they did when they manifested as Gandalf, Saruman, and all them in the Third Age even before. But I'm not sure. That's something I was wondering about, too. Unless Tolkien wrote somewhere otherwise I think we can assume that they always looked like wise old men.
But not too wise. Don't want to show up the Valar, after all.

[Legolas]

The Maiar are Ainur just like the Valar - they don't need to be physically embodied in the manner of men and elves, and often aren't until they find need to.

The Istari did *not* look like the old men they were disguised as when sent to Middle-earth. It is said that Olorin often walked among the elves unnoticed, hinting that he often took on the elf look when he visted them.

[Lobelia]

Well, Gandalf had enough of a body to die, anyway, even if he did get sent back. And he was physical enough to enjoy a good smoke and feel the need for his nicotine fix at the end of a long hard day. (g) [See that scene in Moria where he's keeping watch] Interesting thought, though, Legolas - wonder what he'd look like once they got to the Undying Lands from the Grey Havens, when he could drop the old man disguise?

For the rest of it, can we assume that his possessions were by his side and that they gave him a new staff in Lothlorien? Interestingly, a friend with whom I saw the double feature of FOTR and TTT extended versions recently whispered, "How can he have the same staff?" and sure enough, film-Gandalf *was* carrying the same staff, the one with space for his pipe!

Other Maiar that lost their physical form used time to reform them, as the case of Sauron at the downfall clearly shows. He used some time to reform his body, and could never again assume a form that seemed fair to men amd elves. If we hypothetize that Gandalf "gave up his spirit" at the summit of Celebdil, his physicalk form, or Avatar, would require some time to reform. That his sword and ring would still be at the peak is no wonder (who would disturb them at the top of the endless stair?). So, when the eagle bore him away, the only thing we cannot account for is his staff..

[Potatothan]

I think the staff was made in Lorien, since it was white just like Gandalf's cloth. The staff would fit nicely in the theory that the Istari, not allowed to show their real strength, used their staff in combat as a weapon trough which they used their powers. It would be very odd if an old man would knock down an orc with his hands, but if he would knock him down with a staff, no one would notice. Just a way to use their power in combat without breaking the law of Manwe.

And it's definetly true that Gandalf just lost his physical form when he died in combat with the Balrog. He said: And every day was as long as a lifeage of the earth. That should indicate Valinor if you ask me. And when Gandalf/Mithrandir/whatever name you prefer returned and took physical form on Zirak-Zigil, his Narya and Glamdrin where left there unattended. Because hey, the endless stairs were lost for endless days.

-P

[Arothir]

Flame of Anor? Wow, that sounds like Myths Transformed. I mean it makes the Sun sound like a great primeval force. Anyway, I don't see how you could call Gandalf's body different. When Elves are reincarnated, their new hroa is meant to look like their old hroa. I think in Valinor, Gandalf or "Olorin" would have a fair image. He would not look old. Though he could incarnate himself in any way I guess.

[Olorin_TLA]

Consideriong that he said he was "burned", and I tak eit that when fighting a guy whose covered in flame you'll come out with nont an inch of skin uncharred, I guess it's a new body. Otherwise he would have called himself Gandlf the Crumblyblack. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]