Thrice shall pay for... what?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

This is something that popped into my head during a long drive this morning. For some reason, the Eagles came to mind, specifically Gwaihir, which brought to mind a recent discussion concerning Gandalf's apparent "weight" after his rescue from Zirak-zigil. Before the gates of Mordor, after the Ring has gone into the fire and Gandalf asks Gwaihir to take him to find Frodo and Sam, he says, "Thrice shall pay for all, if you are willing."

Pay for what?

I have heard many debates as to whether or not Gwaihir is the King of the Eagles in the Hobbit, and this comment of Gandalf's alone would convince me that he is not. After all, if the various rescues and conveyances were to be considered part of a repayment for Gandalf having healed the wound of the Eagle King and Gwaihir was that King, then this would be the fourth time he came Gandalf's aid, not the third (and that isn't counting the help in the Battle of the Five Armies). If that is so, what debt was Gwaihir repaying? Is it some kind of Eagle honor thing, that the kin and/or vassals of the King owe the Wizard a debt for saving his life, or did something else happen? I've been going through various books looking for an answer, but danged if I can see one. Am I just missing this in my haste, or was it something left unanswered? Any thoughts?

[Inziladun]

Gandalf was chosen as one of the emissaries to Middle-earth by Manwë, who could be said to be the ultimate authority of all birds in Arda. I've always thought the Eagles' aiding Gandalf throughout his time there to be due to that, mostly. He still could have healed an eagle-lord of an arrow-wound to seal their friendship even more, though.
Perhaps in that quote Gandalf meant 'If you do as I ask just once more, I will consider your service to me at an end'. After all, Gandalf knew at that time that Sauron had fallen, and his mission, and time in Middle-earth, were over.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I have no doubt at all that the Eagles were friendly toward Gandalf because of his affiliation with Manwe (since it seems that every time they show up, Gandalf is there and somehow involved). It's the nature of that particular comment that really puzzles me. "Twice you have borne me, thrice shall pay for all." He's been counting, which makes it seem (to me at least) as though there is some specific debt involved, to which he is referring, but which is never specified.

I kinda like the idea of it being a subtle way of saying that the Eagles' service to that particular servant of Manwe would be over, though.

[Pitchwife]

From LotR Book VI, The Field of Cormallen, it seems to me that Gwaihir's brother Landroval, rather than Gwaihir himself, was the King of Eagles mentioned in The Hobbit:

There came Gwaihir the Windlord, and Landroval his brother, greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the descendants of old Thorondor

If the rules for Eagle royalty were similar to those observed among earthbound bipeds, it would make sense for the King not to go venturing forth far and wide from his own realm that often (unless he was leading his host to war, as in the Battle of the Five Armies and the Battle of the Morannon), whereas Gwaihir, as the King's (presumably) younger brother, would have had more freedom to deal actively with matters of foreign policy (such as rescuing allied Wizards from towers or mountain tops). He may even have been acting as the King's emissary, paying Gandalf for a service not given to himself but his brother, when Landroval's other royal obligations kept him from coming to Gandalf's aid in person.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

From LotR Book VI, The Field of Cormallen, it seems to me that Gwaihir's brother Landroval, rather than Gwaihir himself, was the King of Eagles mentioned in The Hobbit:

That could be the case, but I don't think the quote you cite is conclusive. It could also be read that Landroval and Gwaihir were the 'greatest of all the Eagles of the North'.
Nevertheless, you're probably right about Gwaihir not being the 'king' of the Eagles. Whenever he's mentioned, it always seems to be in the terms of his being the 'swiftest', or having 'far-seeing eyes', and you'd think if he was the ruler of the Eagles that fact would be somewhere noted.

[Raynor]

Nevertheless, you're probably right about Gwaihir not being the 'king' of the Eagles. Whenever he's mentioned, it always seems to be in the terms of his being the 'swiftest', or having 'far-seeing eyes', and you'd think if he was the ruler of the Eagles that fact would be somewhere noted.

Well the eagles are names as vassals of Gwaihir and Landroval, however only Gwaihir bears the name "the Windlord"; considering the nature of this race, this title should establish his prominence among all the other eagles - I am not quite sure we can imagine another title surpassing it in significance.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well the eagles are names as vassals of Gwaihir and Landroval, however only Gwaihir bears the name "the Windlord"; considering the nature of this race, this title should establish his prominence among all the other eagles - I am not quite sure we can imagine another title surpassing it in significance.

Now you mention it, it strikes me that "Windlord" is almost a paraphrase of Manwe's own title - Lord of the Breath of Arda. That certainly does suggest he was an Eagle of exceptionally lofty rank. Landroval's name, in comparison, merely means something like "Broad Wing", if I remember my Sindarin right - indicative of stature but not status. Good point.
But if we assume Gwaihir was the King of Eagles from TH, something seems wrong with Gandalf's mathematics, as Ibrin pointed out at the start. Don't pretend Wizards can't count!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well the eagles are names as vassals of Gwaihir and Landroval, however only Gwaihir bears the name "the Windlord"; considering the nature of this race, this title should establish his prominence among all the other eagles - I am not quite sure we can imagine another title surpassing it in significance.

Then again, Windlord could have been simply another reference to his exceptional speed and flying ability. As I said though, there's certainly room for question there.