The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-28-2005, 10:04 AM   #1
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Anti-Dwarves

Been thinking about this for some time now.

In Arda, there are 'peoples' on both sides of the eternal struggle. Some Melkor created (meaning changed from the original), some chose or were seduced by the 'dark side.' I would also posit that there are those in the middle who are just looking to get through their day, but they're not what I will be talking about.

So anyway, to show what I mean, here is a somewhat short list of example dichotomies (note that some of the 'opposites' are not of the same species but serve a similar function):

Valar (Manwe) - Valar (Melkor)
Maia (Gandalf) - Maia (Sauron)
Elves - Orcs
Ents - Trolls
Humans (Aragorn) - Humans (Mouth of Sauron)
Hobbits (Sam) - Hobbits (Ted Sandyman)
Dogs (Huan) - Wolves (Red Maw)
Horses - Wargs
Eagles - Fell beasts
Army of the Dead - Wrights
...


Now, you may or may not agree with the list above, but again this isn't my main point, which is:

What are anti-dwarves?

Melkor could not corrupt/pervert dwarves (thanks Aule!) and so was not able to 'create' a new species of baddies from the same (like he did with the Elves). Also, I've not read anywhere that there were a family of dwarves that were completely contrary to the others, fought alongside Melkor/Sauron etc, as the Black Numenoreans were in regards to humans. I would rule out the Petty-Dwarves as they didn't seem to amount to much. Also, just because some dwarves attacked other dwarves or elves or other free people does not make them anti-dwarves - elves slaughtered elves, humans, etc, yet are not 'orcs.'

In regards to enemies and function, the dwarves always fight orcs/goblins/trolls (is this Darwinism as they all live in the same type of environment/niche?), and also seem to be pitted against Dragons a lot (Glaurung, Smaug).

One caveat: Isn't it written that in one of the wars, either the War of Wrath or Dagor Dagorath yet to come, that there were 'peoples' fighting on both sides with the exception of one race? I don't think that those were the Dwarves...

Hopefully there is a clear thought somewhere in the above mess and you can see what I'm asking.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 10:15 AM   #2
Snorri Swifthammer
Animated Skeleton
 
Snorri Swifthammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Erebor
Posts: 49
Snorri Swifthammer has just left Hobbiton.
There is nothing against dwarves because we are too tough to corrupt and too intimidating to stand against!

I would actually say that the true anti-dwarves are...

Dwarves.

Now let me explain, with the other races the good/evil dichotmy is an external struggle. The elves and orcs fight physically and externally. However, with the dwarves it is a fight of their noble self vs. their base desires (best represented by their greed.) Dwarven greed is the Dwarves' greatest enemy and leads to their greatest conflicts. It is greed that drove the Dwarves to kill elves and take the necklace (with the Simral) and it was greed that caused the dwarves of Bilbo's group to turn against the elves and humans which led to the Battle of Five Armies.

So it goes to show that since Dwarves are so impressive the only respectable enemy is another Dwarf.
Snorri Swifthammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 10:18 AM   #3
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,685
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Tolkien

Quote:
Melkor could not corrupt/pervert dwarves (thanks Aule!)
Dwarves are fantastically super-awsome, aren't they...

Quote:
Also, I've not read anywhere that there were a family of dwarves that were completely contrary to the others, fought alongside Melkor/Sauron etc
Well, unfortunately, some from the eastern houses did fight on Sauron's side during the Last Alliance.

Quote:
However, with the dwarves it is a fight of their noble self vs. their base desires (best represented by their greed.)
I like this a lot.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 10:21 AM   #4
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer
I would actually say that the true anti-dwarves are...

Dwarves.

So it goes to show that since Dwarves are so impressive the only respectable enemy is another Dwarf.
Sounds a lot like Star Trek's Klingons...

And though I understand your point, I'm not sure that the 'internal struggle' qualifies. It's known that Sauron used the Seven Rings to 'tip the scale' in the bearer's internal struggle, but these same did not turn them into wraiths, uber-orcs, dragons, etc - just greedier dwarves.

And there's a line in the books that says something like, "surely to other dwarves a greedy dwarf may appear different, but..."
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 10:24 AM   #5
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuruharan
Well, unfortunately, some from the eastern houses did fight on Sauron's side during the Last Alliance.
Thanks - I thought that there was some mention of every race being split, but couldn't remember where/when. Could you point me to the source?

Still no elves to orcs, which is what I'd always would have liked to have seen.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 11:47 AM   #6
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,407
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
Mim comes to mind.
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.
mark12_30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 11:49 AM   #7
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12_30
Mim comes to mind.
Not sure what you mean. Wasn't Mim the last Petty Dwarf?
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 11:50 AM   #8
Snorri Swifthammer
Animated Skeleton
 
Snorri Swifthammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Erebor
Posts: 49
Snorri Swifthammer has just left Hobbiton.
Thinking about it, I'll put a vote in for dragons as the Dwarves external opposite.

Dragons are creatures of the air while Dwarves are being of the earth. Their common link is fire. I don't remember the specific battle but I do remember that at one point a dragon (or maybe many) was giving a hard time to an army of Men and Elves. Then to save the day a force of Dwarves, wearing masks to make them proof against the dragon's fire, showed up and drove the wyrm back.

Actually the Dwarves and Dragons have alot in common. Both are immune/resistant to fire, both value great craftsmanship, both make it a goal to collect great treasure hoards, and both are rather greedy.

For the record, Dwarves rock...
Snorri Swifthammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 12:00 PM   #9
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Great post Snorri .

Were the great worms Melkor's foil/bane for the Dwarves? Or, to put the egg first, were Dwarves Eru's counter for the coming of the dragons?
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 12:00 PM   #10
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,407
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer
Thinking about it, I'll put a vote in for dragons
Interesting points, Snorri!

Regarding Mim: he was shorter on virtues. Not that he was an orc; just that he wasn't a very good dwarf. Looking at your list (edit: in opening post), he's on the level of Ted Sandyman.

If you want the 'bad' side to be really eeeevil, then I'd say the opposite of hobbits is Gollum. Then Mim wouldn't ... quite... work.

Last edited by mark12_30; 02-28-2005 at 12:04 PM.
mark12_30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 12:16 PM   #11
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12_30
Regarding Mim: he was shorter on virtues. Not that he was an orc; just that he wasn't a very good dwarf. Looking at your list, he's on the level of Ted Sandyman.
Agreed. Plus, to me Thorin Oakenshield was about the same as he was greedy, faithless, proud, overbearing, without honor, whiny - just what's a Hobbit to do to get a word of praise from a dwarf? Bilbo's writings don't paint a pretty picture of dwarves (sorry Snorri!).


Quote:
If you want the 'bad' side to be really eeeevil, then I'd say the opposite of hobbits is Gollum.
I put Gollum (and others) in the 'other' category. Gollum was a rogue - sure, he ate babies, but he also would not work for Sauron unless it suited his own ends.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 01:20 PM   #12
Snorri Swifthammer
Animated Skeleton
 
Snorri Swifthammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Erebor
Posts: 49
Snorri Swifthammer has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
Agreed. Plus, to me Thorin Oakenshield was about the same as he was greedy, faithless, proud, overbearing, without honor, whiny - just what's a Hobbit to do to get a word of praise from a dwarf? Bilbo's writings don't paint a pretty picture of dwarves (sorry Snorri!).
Bilbo shouldn't paint a nice picture of the Dwarves. The journey of the Hobbit is Bilbo's transformation from "nice, quiet hobbit" to adventurer. He shouldn't greatly appreciate those that took him from his comfortable life. At the beginning Bilbo is looking through a typical Shire Hobbit worldview and the Dwarves would definately get the dreaded title of "Disturbers of the Peace". However by the end of the Hobbit Bilbo is a true companion with the Dwarves. Plus from the beginning there are certainly Dwarves that Bilbo likes better than others in the party.

But remember if the Dwarves hadn't gone on their journey, Bilbo would never have found the Ring and the events of the LotR would never have happened. Therefore the Dwarves are the true saviours of Middle Earth.
Snorri Swifthammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 05:42 PM   #13
Rumil
Sage & Onions
 
Rumil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
Rumil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Eye

If I remember, the reference to Sauron-supporting Dwarves comes at the end of the Second Age, with the Last Alliance. It was said that all peoples save the elves were split, with some supporting Sauron, others the Alliance. Of Dwarves, few fought on either side (implying at least some DID fight for Sauron) but the House of Durin fought on the side of the Alliance.

I'd guess that although Sauron the arch-manipulator could not use the seven rings to reduce the dwarves to obediance he could surely have exploited their enhanced greed and pride to set one against the other and so capitalise on their disunity.

By the time of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs in the Third Age, all Dwarven Houses were said to have sent reinforcements, so the disunity would seem likely to have been cured, perhaps at the point of an axe!

The other unfortunate incident was the whole Nauglamir thing, where the Dwarves of the First Age destroyed Doriath in another jewelry-related tiff. Even Gandalf appears non-committal on whose fault this one was though.
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion
Rumil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 05:51 PM   #14
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,685
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

It's painfully obvious that greedy git Thingol was trying to stiff the noble craftsdwarves of their justly earned fee...

EDIT: This relates to the idea that the natural adversaries of dwarves were other dwarves.

Quote:
A warlike race of old were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely against whomsoever aggrieved them: servants of Melkor, or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

Last edited by Kuruharan; 02-28-2005 at 06:05 PM.
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2005, 10:33 PM   #15
Neurion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Neurion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Standing amidst the slaughter I have wreaked upon the orcs
Posts: 262
Neurion has just left Hobbiton.
White Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer
I don't remember the specific battle but I do remember that at one point a dragon (or maybe many) was giving a hard time to an army of Men and Elves. Then to save the day a force of Dwarves, wearing masks to make them proof against the dragon's fire, showed up and drove the wyrm back.
That would be the Nirnaith Arnoediad, my gruff and diminuitive friend, a day the Eldar remember well.

The Dwarves of Belegost fought there, and their king Azaghal was responsible for wounding Glaurung, causing him to flee the field, as well as the remainder of the dragon host, who fled with their chief.
__________________
____________________________________

"And a cold voice rang forth from the blade.

Yea, I will drink thy blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."
Neurion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2005, 07:38 AM   #16
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420!

I think we can see the dwarvish resistance in Gimli's account of "Sauron's offer." Sauron offered them land, wealth, and power, what dwarves supposedly want right? He was also using the element of fear (the black rider), but Dain said "ummm...no." Also, it is Gimli who first rejects the voice of Saruma in the...Voice of Saruman chapter.

It mentions in the appendices (the language section), very few dwarves ever served the Enemy, willingly, despite what the tales of men say. Men lusted for the dwarves wealth, and so made up lies about how they served Sauron. The reference points that there were a few dwarves who did serve Sauron, but I suspect not many.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2005, 10:14 AM   #17
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
It mentions in the appendices (the language section), very few dwarves ever served the Enemy, willingly, despite what the tales of men say. Men lusted for the dwarves wealth, and so made up lies about how they served Sauron. The reference points that there were a few dwarves who did serve Sauron, but I suspect not many.
I didn't think that there were a large dwarven group 'on the other side,' though I know that the other quote mentioned indicates that there were at least some dwarves on the bad side. Even these may have just been torqued off at a particular group on the 'good' side, and so were fighting for their own selfish ends.

So it would appear that we don't have any 'perverted' dwarves (like orcs) and have very few 'converted' dwarves (like Black Numenoreans) - if any. So was Melkor's/Sauron's counter Dragons?
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 06:24 PM   #18
Groin Redbeard
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Groin Redbeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope!
Posts: 1,735
Groin Redbeard is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Groin Redbeard is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer View Post
There is nothing against dwarves because we are too tough to corrupt and too intimidating to stand against!

I would actually say that the true anti-dwarves are...

Dwarves.

Now let me explain, with the other races the good/evil dichotmy is an external struggle. The elves and orcs fight physically and externally. However, with the dwarves it is a fight of their noble self vs. their base desires (best represented by their greed.) Dwarven greed is the Dwarves' greatest enemy and leads to their greatest conflicts. It is greed that drove the Dwarves to kill elves and take the necklace (with the Simral) and it was greed that caused the dwarves of Bilbo's group to turn against the elves and humans which led to the Battle of Five Armies.
I'd have to agree with this post. The only true anti Dwarf is a Dwarf himself.

Quote:
I think we can see the dwarvish resistance in Gimli's account of "Sauron's offer." Sauron offered them land, wealth, and power, what dwarves supposedly want right? He was also using the element of fear (the black rider), but Dain said "ummm...no." Also, it is Gimli who first rejects the voice of Saruma in the...Voice of Saruman chapter.
Interesting point, but let us not forget the seven rings of power. Even when the Dwarves had the rings Sauron could still not bend them to his will, as he had hoped.
__________________
I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men!
~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Groin Redbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 06:31 PM   #19
Groin Redbeard
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Groin Redbeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope!
Posts: 1,735
Groin Redbeard is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Groin Redbeard is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Wait a minute, I think I have the answer!

I think the anti-Dwarf is the Easterling.

From what I know of Easterlings they were skilled in craftmen, skilled warriors, and may even be half Dwarf.

I was reading a book on the cultures of Middle Earth and it said that during the War of the Ring itself, Easterlings are described as perhaps belonging to more than one culture, plus the Variags of Khand. One group is described as a "new" kind of Easterling that the men of Gondor had previously not encountered; fierce bearded men with axes.
__________________
I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men!
~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Last edited by Groin Redbeard; 12-03-2007 at 07:41 PM.
Groin Redbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2007, 08:21 AM   #20
zxcvbn
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In front of my PC
Posts: 164
zxcvbn has just left Hobbiton.
The evil counterpart to the Dwarves are simply evil Dwarves. Yes, Dwarves were not as corruptible as Men, and few ever directly served the forces of evil(referring, I suppose, to Sauron and Morgoth). But they were still prone to evil sometimes and committed 'their fair share of rash and greedy acts'(quoting wikipedia which I know isn't all that accurate). In general, the Dwarves of the Western Houses(Longbeards, Firebeards, Broadbeams) were on the good side, but the Dwarves of the Eastern Houses did get corrupted. According the the essay 'Of Dwarves and Men'(sadly, I don't have it with me now) they fell into evil and some even fought for Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance. Also, some tried to enslave Men in early days.
The Hobbit makes this clear.
Quote:
in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with them
and
Quote:
some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots
Note that in FOTR at the Council of Elrond Gloin says
Quote:
we knew already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old
indicating that the Dwarves were only friendly with Sauron.

Also, Gimli clearly distinguishes his Dwarf-House's status WRT Sauron
Quote:
My folk have never had dealings with any of the servants of the Enemy
zxcvbn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2007, 10:56 AM   #21
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,685
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard View Post
From what I know of Easterlings they were skilled in craftmen, skilled warriors, and may even be half Dwarf.
Say what...?
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 01:15 PM   #22
Groin Redbeard
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Groin Redbeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope!
Posts: 1,735
Groin Redbeard is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Groin Redbeard is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
As in my previous post I explained on how the men of Gondor encountered heavily bearded Easterling men wielding axes. Now, as far as I know, Easterlings and Dwarves are almost always at war. It is my theory that maybe these races mingled and made a new type of race: DWARFSTERLINGS!

But that's just my own opinion.
__________________
I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men!
~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Groin Redbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 01:21 PM   #23
Groin Redbeard
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Groin Redbeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope!
Posts: 1,735
Groin Redbeard is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Groin Redbeard is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcvbn View Post
The evil counterpart to the Dwarves are simply evil Dwarves. Yes, Dwarves were not as corruptible as Men, and few ever directly served the forces of evil(referring, I suppose, to Sauron and Morgoth). But they were still prone to evil sometimes and committed 'their fair share of rash and greedy acts'(quoting wikipedia which I know isn't all that accurate). In general, the Dwarves of the Western Houses(Longbeards, Firebeards, Broadbeams) were on the good side, but the Dwarves of the Eastern Houses did get corrupted. According the the essay 'Of Dwarves and Men'(sadly, I don't have it with me now) they fell into evil and some even fought for Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance.
I don't get this stuff with the opposite of the Dwarf race is the Dwarf race. You can use that type of logic for anything.

You could say that Grima and the Wild Men of Dunland fought against the kingdom of Rohan. Does that mean that the opposite of the race of men is the race of men? By all means no, it just means that a small part of the race was bad; that doesn't mean that they're the Anti-Men, and it's the same with Dwarves.
__________________
I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men!
~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Groin Redbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 01:24 PM   #24
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,685
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

Quote:
It is my theory that maybe these races mingled and made a new type of race: DWARFSTERLINGS!

But that's just my own opinion.
At least you're not claiming that its something based on Tolkien.

Given the secretive nature of Tolkien's dwarves toward outsiders, I find it unlikely that they would be willing to intermarry with anybody else...especially when you consider how few of them married in the first place.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 12:54 PM   #25
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard View Post
I don't get this stuff with the opposite of the Dwarf race is the Dwarf race. You can use that type of logic for anything.
Then what are the anti-Dwarves, or did Tolkien (via Melkor etc?) not create them?
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 02:37 PM   #26
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,814
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar View Post
Then what are the anti-Dwarves, or did Tolkien (via Melkor etc?) not create them?
Were there any? It seems Eru had a plan of sorts - he made his Ainur, they created a vision of the world, Eru brought it to life. That whole shebang included Morgoth, Morgoth's visions, his creations etc. It seems reasonable to think Eru may have caused things to be 'paired', maybe as a response to what Morgoth sang of, maybe it was intended that way all along...but Dwarves are outside of this.

They were made outside and away from the Music. They only got life because Eru felt sorry for Aule's creations. So it would make perfect sense if Dwarves didn't have any natural enemy or opposite.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 02:44 PM   #27
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
Were there any? It seems Eru had a plan of sorts - he made his Ainur, they created a vision of the world, Eru brought it to life. That whole shebang included Morgoth, Morgoth's visions, his creations etc. It seems reasonable to think Eru may have caused things to be 'paired', maybe as a response to what Morgoth sang of, maybe it was intended that way all along...but Dwarves are outside of this.

They were made outside and away from the Music. They only got life because Eru felt sorry for Aule's creations. So it would make perfect sense if Dwarves didn't have any natural enemy or opposite.
Interesting thought - something created by one's creations that is 'outside the plan.' Really puts Dwarves in a special category.

Regardless, wouldn't Melkor be hard at work making/twisting something to counter this possible threat? Or are his creations right in front of us - hobbits! They have some dwarven qualities, but for some reason Melkor couldn't make them into the fighting machines that he may have intended. Hmmm...
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 02:49 PM   #28
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,814
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar View Post
Interesting thought - something created by one's creations that is 'outside the plan.' Really puts Dwarves in a special category.

Regardless, wouldn't Melkor be hard at work making/twisting something to counter this possible threat? Or are his creations right in front of us - hobbits! They have some dwarven qualities, but for some reason Melkor couldn't make them into the fighting machines that he may have intended. Hmmm...
I always knew Hobbits had a sinister side....it's the hairy feet and lack of shoes which gives them away....never trust a hippy

But seriously, Melkor had a go at making his own creations, but that was one of Eru's 'laws of the universe', that only Eru could create new sentient beings - which is why there was the brou-ha-ha about him giving Aule's Dwarves life. Melkor could only corrupt what was already there.

Hmmm, maybe this us why Eru gave the Dwarves life? Because otherwise Melkor may have got his hands on them and turned them into some non-sentient, humanoid, ruthless zombie army?
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 03:02 PM   #29
Farael
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Farael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,549
Farael has just left Hobbiton.
Well Alatar, there seems to be a mixup here, or I'm not understanding things correctly. You say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar View Post
So anyway, to show what I mean, here is a somewhat short list of example dichotomies (note that some of the 'opposites' are not of the same species but serve a similar function):

Valar (Manwe) - Valar (Melkor)
Maia (Gandalf) - Maia (Sauron)
Elves - Orcs
Ents - Trolls
Humans (Aragorn) - Humans (Mouth of Sauron)
Hobbits (Sam) - Hobbits (Ted Sandyman)
Dogs (Huan) - Wolves (Red Maw)
Horses - Wargs
Eagles - Fell beasts
Army of the Dead - Wrights
...
However, you don't take "Dwarves-Dwarves" as an answer. Yet Valar-Valar, Maia-Maia are set there as opposites. Ok, so they are exceptions as they are higher beings. But then we have hobits-hobbits and I can't say that Sam and Ted Sandyman are as polar opposites as Elves-Orcs. Sandyman, even if a fool, was just that. Misguided and wrong, and possibly had a seed of "evil" in his heart. But he was still a hobbit and wouldn't have done unhobbit-like things (such as murder)

Finally, we have humans (Numenor) and humans (black numenoreans)... but what's the difference between that example and Dwarves (Good) and Dwarves (bad)? True, the black numenoreans were corrupted by Sauron, there's a house of men who was bought off by Morgoth... but what is "evil"?

To be actively corrupted by the "bad" guys, or to act in the bad guys' favour? Certainly, Boromir was not evil, but his ringlust was an evil feeling and it cost him his life. Conversely, we are told that the Easterlings were evil, and yet Sam wonders if they were trully evil to the last man or if they were misguided and lied to.

So if a house of dwarves is told that the Longbeards (who are fighting for the alliance) said that their halls are ugly and their beards are too short, and they decide to join in with Sauron, are they not just as "evil" and just as "opposite" as the Black Numenoreans, who were tempted with OTHER lies?

So if we say Sauron "Created" the Black Numenoreans, we can say that he "created" the evil dwarves as opposites of the good dwarves. It's just a different strategy he must've used after learning he could not corrupt them with "outside" influences like a ring.
__________________
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.
Farael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 03:19 PM   #30
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farael View Post
Well Alatar, there seems to be a mixup here, or I'm not understanding things correctly. You say:
Me, not clear?!?

Quote:
However, you don't take "Dwarves-Dwarves" as an answer. Yet Valar-Valar, Maia-Maia are set there as opposites. Ok, so they are exceptions as they are higher beings. But then we have hobits-hobbits and I can't say that Sam and Ted Sandyman are as polar opposites as Elves-Orcs. Sandyman, even if a fool, was just that. Misguided and wrong, and possibly had a seed of "evil" in his heart. But he was still a hobbit and wouldn't have done unhobbit-like things (such as murder).
Melkor 'took' certain creatures and twisted ("perverted") them as shown in the list, such as elves/orcs and ents/trolls. Men needed no outward disfiguration as they could be good or evil, and were apt to join Melkor without much - if any - twisting.

Melkor, though Valar - Valar, became something completely different. He was no longer 'holy' as proved by the touch of a Silmarillion. He also could no longer take on an angelic form (Sauron loses this ability as well). So, although he was from the same stock as the others, he devolved into something completely different.

But what of Dwarves? Sure, there were Dwarf - Dwarf wars, and nobody liked the petty ones (they were always being petty), but did Melkor lack the ability to pervert these beings? Or, as stated that these are beings of a completely different genesis, could twisting them not be possible, only persuading or breaking?

And to me, given time, Ted would end up like Gollum or Grima - these human cousins would be like other races of humans in Middle Earth.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 03:43 PM   #31
Farael
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Farael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,549
Farael has just left Hobbiton.
But what defines "evil" if not Morgoth/Sauron? fighting for him is clearly "evil", no matter what your reasons are. Cruelty and lies are clear evil behaviours, but we see that elves can do it themselves, and I don't think anyone would say elves are EVIL.

So if we say that men could be swayed to be evil and needed no "corrupting" what's to say that Dwarves could not? Clearly they fought for the "bad guys" and if so, they at least condoned (if not partaked in) cruelty and "evil ways".

It is stated that dwarves could not be corrupted like elves-orcs or men-ringwraits, but then we can't hold evil men and good men in the same light as elves and orcs. After all, evil men weren't "corrupted" but rather talked into worshipping Morgoth and all those bad bad things.

IF anything, I just stumbled upon it myself... men-ringwraits or even men-orcs (there's some saying that there were orcs that descended from corrupted men). But if we take good men and evil men we have to take good dwarves and evil dwarves as a Dwarf/anti-dwarf comparison
__________________
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.
Farael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 03:46 PM   #32
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,606
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
I see your point, alatar, but I don't think your arguments are very strong. I mean, maybe at the Maiar-Maiar thing you can talk like that, but definitely not in the Hobbit-Hobbit thing. Not even in Sandyman's case and, in fact, not even in Gollum's. However the Hobbits may be in fact Men, there are no definite anti-hobbits as a whole faction, there are bad hobbits, but that varies from Sackville-Bagginses through Sandyman to Gollum. But to place the equation - or rather, X-mark between hobbits A and hobbits B you'll need first to find a hobbit society somewhere else that is "evil" in general, like some Easterling-hobbits or something. But that's based on the society, which I believe was not the point of view you took. Genesis-based you have either to place the Hobbits all under Men or you need also to find some counterpart to them. And this is the stance you took, or so I understood it, genesis-based, yet you are using individuals as examples in the case of hobbits. It works with the others, since you are not working with societies (like "good" Gondorians and "evil" Easterlings but "good" Aragorn and 99% of M-E and really corrupted Mouth of Sauron), but not with hobbits. Sandyman is still a hobbit. And Wormtongue, Wormtongue is still a Man! Watch out that you don't step off of your line. Because your theory and division, as you outline it, is acceptable as long as you observe it from this genesis-based POV, but that means leaving most of the "ordinary" Easterlings and Southrons on the left side, as "good" men. Or either you have to move all who commit evil deeds, but on the outside remain the same, to the right side, but then you also have to accept with the evil Dwarves as the Anti-Dwarves. You have to choose the point from which you are looking at this, but that means either agreeing with Dwarves or backing away with Hobbits.

And by the way, how do the Drúedain fit into the scheme?

(crossposted with Farael)
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2007, 12:07 AM   #33
Imperica
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 35
Imperica has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Imperica Send a message via AIM to Imperica
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
...but Dwarves are outside of this.

They were made outside and away from the Music. They only got life because Eru felt sorry for Aule's creations. So it would make perfect sense if Dwarves didn't have any natural enemy or opposite.
But are they really? I disagree that they are outside/away from the Music. Eru sang in the Music before the Ainu did and it's hard for me to think that he did not perceive Aule's creations would come or even sing about it himself. I don't have my Silm handy but when Melkor causes discord in the Music, Illuvatar says to him something to the effect of "Whatever you do stims from me" meaning all of Melkor's actions were "Meant to be" and it would be the same for Aule and the rest of the Valar...

My head is jumbled but I hope that makes some sense...
Imperica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2007, 07:28 AM   #34
zxcvbn
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In front of my PC
Posts: 164
zxcvbn has just left Hobbiton.
I can't understand why so many people are saying "I can't accept Dwarves as evil counterpart to Dwarves!" And why not? We have good Men and corrupted Men. Similarly there can be Dwarves and corrupted Dwarves(Tolkien said that the Dwarves of the East were 'corrupted' in similar manner to the Easterlings).

And as the poster above said, Dwarves certainly ARE part of the Music of the Ainur. It is natural that all Vala creations should have their source in Eru. Men are the only race that have some freedom from the Music.
zxcvbn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2007, 11:26 AM   #35
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,814
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperica View Post
But are they really? I disagree that they are outside/away from the Music. Eru sang in the Music before the Ainu did and it's hard for me to think that he did not perceive Aule's creations would come or even sing about it himself. I don't have my Silm handy but when Melkor causes discord in the Music, Illuvatar says to him something to the effect of "Whatever you do stims from me" meaning all of Melkor's actions were "Meant to be" and it would be the same for Aule and the rest of the Valar...

My head is jumbled but I hope that makes some sense...
True! Logically speaking, if Eru is omnipotent and he causes Melkor to be what he is, then he must also cause Aule to be the sort of Valar who would create Dwarves. I don't know if he actually creates him to make them in that it is fated, or if he just creates him with the possibility of or capacity for making them, but it must be at least the latter if he is omnipotent. Even so, they can still be seen as 'outside the Music' in a way as they are not directly created by Eru but via a third party, whereas Eru creates the Elves and Men himself after hearing the Music.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2007, 06:05 PM   #36
Farael
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Farael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,549
Farael has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
Even so, they can still be seen as 'outside the Music' in a way as they are not directly created by Eru but via a third party, whereas Eru creates the Elves and Men himself after hearing the Music.
Wouldn't that make men and elves outside the music, whereas dwarves who were created by a Valar (who were the ones making the music) part of the music?
__________________
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.
Farael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 04:17 AM   #37
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,606
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farael View Post
Wouldn't that make men and elves outside the music, whereas dwarves who were created by a Valar (who were the ones making the music) part of the music?
No, no way - the Children, Men and Elves alike, were in the Music, but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ainulindalë
For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning
So they were there, only not in the beginning. Where I believe (or would conclude, by logic) that the Dwarves were not in the Music, because Aulë got the idea of creating them only when he saw that there are still no Children coming and the world is quite empty (or so he felt). So, in the Music, Aulë was probably singing about stone and gems and metals and whatever, but not about Dwarves.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 11:31 AM   #38
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farael View Post
and I don't think anyone would say elves are EVIL.
I would. Individuals elves can be evil, and if one believes that Melkor used elves to create orcs, methinks that he started with the worst of the elves, then simply continued to nudge them further down the road.

Quote:
So if we say that men could be swayed to be evil and needed no "corrupting" what's to say that Dwarves could not? Clearly they fought for the "bad guys" and if so, they at least condoned (if not partaked in) cruelty and "evil ways".
Plastic creatures that we are, we need take no other form to express our evil ways. I just wondered if Dwarves would display some outer sign of their perversion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc
I see your point, alatar, but I don't think your arguments are very strong.
Reread them next week after they've spent some time at the gymnasium.

Quote:
I mean, maybe at the Maiar-Maiar thing you can talk like that, but definitely not in the Hobbit-Hobbit thing. Not even in Sandyman's case and, in fact, not even in Gollum's. However the Hobbits may be in fact Men, there are no definite anti-hobbits as a whole faction, there are bad hobbits, but that varies from Sackville-Bagginses through Sandyman to Gollum. But to place the equation - or rather, X-mark between hobbits A and hobbits B you'll need first to find a hobbit society somewhere else that is "evil" in general, like some Easterling-hobbits or something. But that's based on the society, which I believe was not the point of view you took. Genesis-based you have either to place the Hobbits all under Men or you need also to find some counterpart to them. And this is the stance you took, or so I understood it, genesis-based, yet you are using individuals as examples in the case of hobbits.
I think that I understand what you think that I'm saying, but...My point regarding anti-hobbits is that, as posited above, if we were to start with the worst - Ted and Smeagol - then with time we could theoretically get an entirely different species. If Ted could go to the dark side, and Gollum could become a murderous cannibal, then it stands that I could get a bunch of the same, given the resources of Melkor/Sauron and time. And doesn't Gandalf state that, heretofore, the Dark Lord ignored or did not notice the hobbits? But what if he, or better, Melkor did?

Quote:
And by the way, how do the Drúedain fit into the scheme?
Not sure, but I noticed in RotK that there's a subtype of orc that is used as a tracker, being good at sniffing and such, similar to Ghân-buri-Ghân and the other Woses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcvbn
I can't understand why so many people are saying "I can't accept Dwarves as evil counterpart to Dwarves!" And why not? We have good Men and corrupted Men. Similarly there can be Dwarves and corrupted Dwarves(Tolkien said that the Dwarves of the East were 'corrupted' in similar manner to the Easterlings).
My original question, or thought, was that Melkor used what was on hand to create his armies and help. He used elves for orcs, ents for trolls, dogs (or nice wolves) for wargs, and who knows what dragons. What could or did he make with the Dwarves? Was he at a loss regarding these creatures, or did he make something from them?

Dragons do seem to have similar traits as Dwarves, methinks...
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 11:58 AM   #39
zxcvbn
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In front of my PC
Posts: 164
zxcvbn has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar View Post
My original question, or thought, was that Melkor used what was on hand to create his armies and help. He used elves for orcs, ents for trolls, dogs (or nice wolves) for wargs, and who knows what dragons. What could or did he make with the Dwarves? Was he at a loss regarding these creatures, or did he make something from them?
He MAY have succeeded in simply corrupting some Dwarves, like his successor Sauron(even though there's no mention of that in the Silmarillion).

Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar View Post
Dragons do seem to have similar traits as Dwarves, methinks...
Eh? You lost me there. I Can't think of any similarity apart from thae fact that they both love gold. IMO the closest counterpart to the Dragons,if any, are the Eagles.
zxcvbn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 12:18 PM   #40
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcvbn View Post
He MAY have succeeded in simply corrupting some Dwarves, like his successor Sauron(even though there's no mention of that in the Silmarillion).
I was hoping for something more grand, like a new species.

Quote:
Eh? You lost me there. I Can't think of any similarity apart from thae fact that they both love gold. IMO the closest counterpart to the Dragons,if any, are the Eagles.
Dragons covet riches, gold, jewels, etc, as do dwarves. Dragons seem less social; can't ever remember reading about dragons being friends or having mates, much like the Dwarves (okay, so that's a stretch). Dwarves seemed to be somewhat resistant or resilient to Dragon fire, like when Glaurung is assailed by the Dwarves (i.e. Azaghâl) in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Was this due to a shared nature? The Rings of the Dwarves were consumed by the Dragons, as noted here. Why is it when you have one, you can find the other? In HoME, Min the petty dwarf takes over guarding Glarung's horde in Nargothrond when the Dragon goes off to pursue the children of Hurin.

I can see the Eagles comparison in that they both fly and are intelligent/wise, but not much more than that.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:48 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.