The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-31-2006, 08:48 PM   #1
deal_with_it
Animated Skeleton
 
deal_with_it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
deal_with_it has just left Hobbiton.
Sting Orcrist

Why didn't Dain use Orcrist during the Battle of Dale or loan it to Gimli for the Quest?

Is it some sort of Dwarven ritual? Thorin wouldn't have cared. He's dead.
deal_with_it is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2006, 09:11 PM   #2
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,488
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I would say that there are two reasons for leaving Orcrist, "Biter," where it lay. First, as many peoples and races honored their dead by burying them with the dead's possessions and beloved artifacts, like Thorin with his sword and the Arkenstone, one doesn't then wait a while to take the objects back from the dead. Also, my guess is that these magical and great items have to be 'lost,' or there would be nothing fun to look for in later ages (plus you don't want a First Age weapon on the streets during the Fifth Age...).

I cannot see Dain or his folk to be so desperate as to desecrate the tomb of their 'father' just for the use of a sword.

Welcome to the Downs.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2006, 02:41 PM   #3
Eonwe
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Eonwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: In a world grown ever smaller.
Posts: 728
Eonwe has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

If I recall correctly, its broken in the Battle of Five Armies. Perhaps there was not skill to reforge it?
__________________
I've got bridge club on Wednesday,
Archery on Thursday,
Dancing on a Friday night!
Eonwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2006, 04:38 PM   #4
Thinlómien
Shady She-Penguin
 
Thinlómien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,959
Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Thinlómien
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonwe
If I recall correctly, its broken in the Battle of Five Armies. Perhaps there was not skill to reforge it?
I can't check right now, but I think it wasn't.
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer
Blood is running deep, some things never sleep
Double Fenris
Thinlómien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2006, 08:44 PM   #5
deal_with_it
Animated Skeleton
 
deal_with_it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
deal_with_it has just left Hobbiton.
Sting The Goblin Cleaver

I never heard it was broken, but I may be wrong I just wasn't sure (if it was whole) whether or not it was buried with THorin or not. If it was I could see not digging it up, but in a life threatening situation I might take that chance.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp

"The sword of Thorin Oakenshield, discovered by him in a troll-hoard on his journey to Erebor, and buried with him after his death in the Battle of Five Armies.

Notes
1 Exactly what happened to Orcrist at Thorin's funeral isn't completely clear. The Hobbit tells us that the sword was placed by Thranduil 'upon his tomb', and that it 'gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached' (The Hobbit 18, The Return Journey). These quotes seem to suggest that Orcrist wasn't actually buried with Thorin, but instead just laid on his tomb.

In The Lord of the Rings, there's a suggestion that this may have changed. We are told there that Orcrist '...lay now upon the breast of Thorin...' (The Fellowship of the Ring II 3, The Ring Goes South). This seems to suggest that the sword was actually placed within Thorin's tomb, and not just placed on it, though this text is admittedly ambiguous."
deal_with_it is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2006, 11:32 AM   #6
Eonwe
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Eonwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: In a world grown ever smaller.
Posts: 728
Eonwe has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Hmm, I seem have a propensity for making things up...
__________________
I've got bridge club on Wednesday,
Archery on Thursday,
Dancing on a Friday night!
Eonwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2006, 06:41 PM   #7
Elu Ancalime
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Elu Ancalime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Anador
Posts: 479
Elu Ancalime has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Elu Ancalime
Quote:
These quotes seem to suggest that Orcrist wasn't actually buried with Thorin, but instead just laid on his tomb.
In all seriousness (well...a little humor) what if it fell off?

Its another one of those slip of Tolkiens from transferring information from series to series. My guess is that Tolkien meant it to be placed on his tomb, then rather on his chest. Like was aforestated. He would have meant for whatever was written in The Hobbit to stand, since for one he wrote it first. Perhaps!
________
Chrysler lebaron

Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:36 PM.
Elu Ancalime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2006, 08:22 AM   #8
Rumil
Sage & Onions
 
Rumil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 888
Rumil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Eye

I guess one benefit of leaving orcrist on top of Thorin's tomb was that the Dwarves could tell if orcs were close to the Lonely Mountain by the gleam from the sword (as for Sting), and so avoid being surprised.

I'd imagine some sort of very solemn duty guard of dwarven soldiers guarding the tomb of Thorin and able to raise the alarm if Orcrist lit up, must have been exceptionally boring!
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion
Rumil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2006, 09:02 PM   #9
The Sixth Wizard
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
The Sixth Wizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Stuck under a rock in Valinor with Ar-Pharazon.
Posts: 493
The Sixth Wizard has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to The Sixth Wizard
I'm sure it's just a thing that they do with their kings, I mean Boromir wasn't that important and the Horn of Gondor went with him to the sea.
__________________
We all need a bit more love and a little less Miley Cyrus.
The Sixth Wizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2006, 10:24 AM   #10
lathspell
Regenerating Ringkeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Holland
Posts: 757
lathspell has just left Hobbiton.
Narya

The actual quote from the Hobbit runs thus:

Quote:
Actually is was some days before Bilbo really set out. They buried Thorin deep beneath the mountain, and Bard laid the Arkenstone upon his breast.
"There let it lie till the mountain falls!" he said. "May it bring good fortune to all his folk that dwell hereafter!"
Upon his tomb the elvenking then laid Orcrist, the elvish sword that had been taken from Thorin in captivity. It is said in songs that it gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached and the fortress of the dwarves could not be taken by surprise.
So it seems clear that the Arkenstone was lain upon his breast by Bard. Thranduil did indeed lay Orcrist on his tomb. Another point is the rumour about the songs in which it was said that Orcrist gleamed if foes approached the mountain. I mean, why sing anything like it if you can't see the blade anyway? It is, I think, a heartening thought after all the dealings with Smaug that you wouldn't have to worry anymore about such things, because if another Dragon came from the north the sword would gleam. Wether the story is true... who knows?

Now, back to the original question of this thread. Why didn't Dain fight with Orcrist?
If I remember correctly, in mythology dwarves generally are very reluctant to use one another's tools. There most beloved tools for crafting or weapons in battle were therefore not lightly used by another dwarf. I do not know if Tolkien used this dwarven characteristic in his books, but it might be. Then Dain wouldn't have taken Orcrist from Thorin's tomb, unless he had no other choice.
Another reason could be that what Orcrist was for Thorin, Dain's axe was for him. It is said in UT that Dain wielded his axe with great power. Maybe he had a greater power when fighting with his axe then with Thorin's sword. It is like Aragorn and Anduril. Anyone can carry Anduril and stab an orc with it, but Aragorn is the only one who van actually wield the power of the sword.

greetings,
lathspell
__________________
'You?' cried Frodo.
'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'
lathspell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:21 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.