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Old 12-04-2017, 09:26 PM   #1
ArcusCalion
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Tolkien The Lhammas -- Can we include it?

I have begun creating a draft version for the Lhammas text, and I have run into a multitude of issues.

1) In Quendi and the Eldar, Óssanwë Kenta, and other places there are several references to the fact that they are merely a summary of Pengolodh's writings in the Lhammas. However, the Lhammas as written does not contain anything remotely like these writings, with their notes on mind-communication, Valarin, and the tongues of Men and Nandor and Sindar.

2) The work relies very heavily on the idea of the Valian Year. Because we have decided to keep this ambiguous and unresolved, we cannot include these sections. However, it seems to me that there is no way to remove them or keep them ambiguous. We must therefore either resolve the debate, or come up with an unforeseen solution.

3) The canon is severely outdated. The concept of the Sindar had not yet emerged, and the entire Sindarin language is not in existence. Especially after Quendi and the Eldar, with the various relations between Sindarin and Quenya and the multitudinous dialects and historical variations alluded to, to edit these into the Lhammas text seems nigh impossible without immense creative liberty. The only document I can find to help is a section of Words, Phrases, and Passages, but I am unsure how thorough this will be.

These three difficulties present to me a very difficult document to revise. However, there can be no doubt that the idea represented is extremely important to Tolkien and was indeed the root of the entire legendarium: the Elvish tongues and how they changed and related over time. I think we need to try our hardest to include it.

That all being said, if anyone has ideas on how to resolve the points raised, I would very much appreciate it.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 12-04-2017 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 12-05-2017, 11:05 AM   #2
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If you watch the structure of the Appendix C of my version. You can see my proposal. In this case I didn't take anything from that Lammas of The Lost Road, but with the Lambion Ontale (edited) from PE18, the texts of Q&E, The names of the descendants of Finwë, Dangweth pengolodh, and Ósanwe- centa from VT39, I composed a text very say "Lammasic".


Appendix C
Of Tongues.
Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues
-Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues
-The division of Tongues
-Of the speech of Dwarves
-Of the Atani and their tongues
-Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts)
-Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves.
-The Clan-names
-The names of the descendants of Finwë
-Elvish names for Men
-Elvish names for the Dwarves
-Elvish names for the Orcs
-Kwen, Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language"
-Note on the "Language of the Valar"
-Dangweth pengolodh
-Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion)

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Old 12-05-2017, 11:25 AM   #3
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Gondowe I think this might be the way to go. I might also include the discussions about the relation between Quenya and Sindarin in Words, Phrases, and Passages as well as the Excursus on Languages from the Grey Annals.
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:01 PM   #4
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Yes, it could be.
But in my opinion the Excursus on Languages from the Grey Annals can be well placed into the narrative because is short and very readable.
As for the relation Q-S in WPaP, it will need, I think, a huge composition (I don't think the continuous philological and phonological explanations can be added to a text like Q&E with much of that, even not including the extract from Appendix D of Q&E, published also in VT39) and in the same texts of the Excursus and Essecenta can be read relations between all Eldarin tongues.

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Old 12-05-2017, 12:47 PM   #5
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Oh that makes it easier then! Are you satisfied with your version? If so then I think I am inclined to follow this same structure, with the overall heading of The Lhammas and the subheading from the HoME V. document, and then a short explanation that the original Lhammas is lost, but various excerpts and summaries have been preserved by Númenórean scholars.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:06 AM   #6
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Yes. I am satisfied, but of course it would need a review of many other people for this project. It's satisfying for me but maybe not for others.
In this project, as I said before in other threads, were adopted text structures that I not agreed, but I understand it would be very late to change it, and at last the information is the same but given in different places.
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