The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > The New Silmarillion > Translations from the Elvish - Public Forum
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-18-2019, 05:23 PM   #41
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,149
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!
I got off to a good start but then got bogged down with some other things. I think I'll post the comments I have so far, which mainly address the easier early parts.

I think I prefer my selection of LQ vs. AAm (see my post above) as the basic text paragraph by paragraph. For much of the chapter, AAm is the fuller (and later, I believe) text, so taking LQ as the basis throughout means breaking it up with a lot of insertions from AAm. I think it’s better to take full sections from AAm. So, for instance, I would be inclined to start the chapter with AAm section 30, rather than start with LQ section 18, only to switch to AAm after a few sentences.

CE-SL-01: This addition is not needed if we take up the emendation (as indeed we must) from AAm* (given in the notes on AAm), where the change was apparently specifically made to remove Melkor’s creation of the Balrogs:

We must similarly take up the emendation from AAm* in the following section.

Thus, my text:

Quote:
CE-01 <AAm {§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and . . . but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.> CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
<AAm{§31} Now Oromë dearly loved all the works of Yavanna, . . . he would often come also to Middle-earth, and there go a-hunting under the stars.> CE-01.2 <AAm* He had great love of horses and of hounds, but all beasts were in his thought, and he hunted only the monsters and fell creatures of Melkor. If he descried them afar or his great hounds got wind of them, then his white horse, Nahar, shone like silver as it ran through the shadows, and the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his golden hooves. And at the mort Oromë would blow his great horn, until the mountains shook,> <AAm and things of evil fled away; but Melkor . . . giving battle only to those of little strength, tormenting the weak,> CE-01.3 <AAm* and trusting ever to his slaves to do his evil work.> <AAm Yet ever his dominion spread southward over Middle-earth, for even as Oromë passed the servants of Melkor would gather again; and the Earth was full of shadows and deceit.>
CE-EX-03: I’m not sure I agree that this needs to be added to explicitly motivate the council. It would make sense to add it if by changing from AAm to LQ here, we somehow missed out on a similar explanation from LQ, but that’s not the case; LQ has a section telling the same stuff, essentially, as in AAm sections 30-31, and then moves on to the council without comment (the motivation being implied, I think). A very minor point, and certainly not one I feel strongly about, but in general I prefer not to break up the texts without good reason.

CE-EX-04: There’s probably a lot to say about the Cuivienyarna, but first I should repeat that I agree in principle that it would be good to include it. I would not that I prefer a slightly different placement for it, where I think it is less disruptive to the text. My version has here:

Quote:
{§19} And Varda said naught,. . . but in the North in the Elder Days Men called them the Burning Briar: {quoth Pengolod}.>
CE-03 <AAm {§37} In that hour, it is said, . . .
{§38} In the changes of the world. . . and the sound of water falling over stone.>
At this point the Cuivenyarna would be inserted
<AAm{§39} Long the Quendi dwelt . . . no other living things that spoke or sang.
In other words, I would place the Cuivienyarna after AAm sections 37 and 38, which allows those paragraphs to form a complete thought before diverting our attention to the legend. One might, I suppose, object to the slight atemporality of mentioning that the first sound the Elves heard was the sound of water before the Cuivienyarna tells that they awaken, but that atemporality is there anyway since the very first sentence of the Cuivienyarna returns to the time “when their first bodies were being made”.

I’d also note, and this is a small and very minor point, that I see no reason to import the first sentence from LQ section 20 to replace the beginning of AAm section 37; as in my version, I prefer to use sections 37-38 of AAm in their entirety.

Now we come to the hard question of the status of the Cuivienyarna. I think the evidence shows that Tolkien did not intend this to be (necessarily) the “real” story of the awakening of the Elves, in all its details. He noted on the typescript itself:

Quote:
Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore.
Then there’s the footnote attached to the statement that the Elvish words for “one”, “two” and “three” came from the names of Imin, Tata, and Enil:

Quote:
The Eldarin words referred to are Min, Atta (or Tata), Nel. The reverse is probably historical. The Three had no names until they had developed language, and were given (or took) names after they had devised numerals (or at least the first twelve).
Which shows that he considered at least some details of the legend to be likely “untrue”. And finally, the story is referred to both in its title and in “Quendi and Eldar” as a legend. That doesn’t mean it’s not “true”, of course, but it does mean that Tolkien is not telling us that it’s true.

All of which is to say that I have a nagging feeling that we must insert something to set the legend apart as just that, and I’m not sure that including the title is enough. I would suggest that we might use Tolkien’s own note from the typescript as an additional subtitle:

Quote:
CE-EX-04 <Q&E
The legend of the Awaking of the Quendi
(Cuivienyarna)
<Q&E note to Cuivienyarna[A] surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore>
While their first bodies were being made ...
CE-SL-06, -07: I wonder if it’s not better simply to remove this bit rather than make this editorial addition:

Quote:
Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and later the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars[.]{, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrowdim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy. For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda.} But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.>
CE-EX-06 - CE-EX-23: As a general comment, I think the MT material here and following feels very jarring and out of place. These texts are very much Tolkien, in his own voice, commenting on his story and world, and inserting large parts of this into the story itself feels like a bit of an abuse of those texts to me. It would be different if the MT texts in question provided critical components of the narrative, but mostly they just explain and contemplate the narrative.

If the decision is to keep this material, I think ArcusCalion’s suggestion of making it a separate section with its own sub-heading is a good one, but I think it will need a lot more work. My vote would be not to include it here. Perhaps if a coherent and self-sufficient text can be made of it, it could be separated and put elsewhere, for instance as an appendix?
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 12:56 PM   #42
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,555
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
I can see your reasoning for the different choice of the basic text. I did rather choose by fiting structure than by anthing else. So I am over all not in opposition against AAm as basic text. But as a matter of fact I think that some of passages that I kept from LQ add worth while information. So let have the discussion pice by pice.

I do not mind if we start with LQ §18 or AAm §30 and if you prefer AAm that is okay for me, but the more detailed description of growth that had been checked seems worth the interruption of the text for me. What about this:
Quote:
CE-01<AAm{§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and all Middle-earth lay in a twilight under the stars.> <LQ While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; …
As well I find it sad to loos Yavanna’s feeling of ‘ill content that it[Middle-earth] was forsaken’. With this and the removal of CE-EX-03 we would nearly annihilate an explicit thread of the storyline in LQ with Yavanna as the one actively pushing the other Valar to act in Middle-earth. The only part left is her speech at the council. But if you feel it necessary that is bearable.

CE-SL-01: Do I understand rightly, that you suppose to leave that detailed description of the Balrogs including their nature and physical exterior out yust because it would mean an insertion into a text composition? To this I am strongly in opposition and the ‘corollary’ to our rules is with me on this issue I think. Anyhow ‘multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him’ can in my opinion not stand alone. How could he multiply spirits? Did What about this editing:
Quote:
CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he CE-SL-01b {multiplied}<LQ gahthered> the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. <LQ; Ch. 3; Note to §18 These were the {(}ealar{)}[Footnote to the text: 'spirit' (not incarnate, which was fëa, {S[indarin]}Sindarin fae). eala 'being'.] spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame.> But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
CE-EX-04: You are right, however clver we may place the Cuivienyarna there will be some forward and backward jumping in time. For me your placement does worl equally well, so if the other don’t mind we can change the place.
A agree that when using AAm §37 - §38 it doesn’t make sense to use the first sentence of LQ §20. It made it to my text because LQ was my basic and I didn’t liked another change before the palce where I gave the Cuivienyarna.

’Legendary’ character of the Cuivienyarna: Wow, I would not have expected such a ‘inovative’ use of a author’s note to be considered acceptable. But I am okay with this.

CE-SL-06: Interisting that I would like to remove the ‘sun of summer’ which you ememnd by putting in ‘later’ and I would hold the twilight times by editorial emendation. Are you sure that the concept has been abondaned that the sun was a sign for the waning of the first born and for the approach of the Dominion of Men? That was my reason to remove the ‘sun of summer’. But however that might be Elvish joy might always be mingled with some sadness, wo we might keep the ‘sun of summer’ as you proposed.
CE-SL-07: I agree that my amendations are a bit on the heavy side, what about only skiping the later part and adding in the same style as before only a ‘later’:
Quote:
Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and CE-SL-06b<editorial addition later> the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars, and CE-SL-07b<editorial addition later> the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrowdim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy.{ For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda.} But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.>
CE-EX-05.3: Oops, we have not marked this, but it must be removed since we don’t know for sure how the relations was:
Quote:
{ 1085
§41 }And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar CE-EX-05.3{ (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)} it chanced that Oromë rode to {Endon}[Endor] in his hunting, …
CE-EX-06 to CE-EX-23: (CE-EX-24 is actually the Sub-chapter heading, which we should discusse independently.) I agree that this enlargement might have become to big an exagreation for the text of our propose at this palce. I agree to remove it. But I think it should become the grain for building up a part of volume III.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2019, 05:20 PM   #43
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,149
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
I can see your reasoning for the different choice of the basic text. I did rather choose by fiting structure than by anthing else. So I am over all not in opposition against AAm as basic text. But as a matter of fact I think that some of passages that I kept from LQ add worth while information. So let have the discussion pice by pice.
Agreed.

Quote:
As well I find it sad to loos Yavanna’s feeling of ‘ill content that it[Middle-earth] was forsaken’. With this and the removal of CE-EX-03 we would nearly annihilate an explicit thread of the storyline in LQ with Yavanna as the one actively pushing the other Valar to act in Middle-earth. The only part left is her speech at the council. But if you feel it necessary that is bearable.
You have a good point here, and it's probably worth some heavier editing to keep that thread. However, in your first draft I find a redundancy between LQ and AAm, as we twice tell that Orome and Yavanna went to Middle-earth, and twice tell of Yavanna's grief. In LQ we are told that she "grieved at the darkness of Middle-earth and ill content that it was forsaken" and in AAm she is "grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked". I think we either must lose one of those two statements, or somehow combine them.

How about:

Quote:
CE-01<AAm{§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and all Middle-earth lay in a twilight under the stars.> <LQ While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; and Yavanna often would walk there in the shadows, grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked <LQand ill content that it was forsaken>. And she set a sleep . . .
If we're including these bits from LQ, I suppose it might be better to take the first sentence from LQ as well, rather than AAm, so we could also do:

Quote:
CE-01<LQ{§18 }In all this time, since Melkor overthrew the Lamps, the Middle-earth east of the Mountains was without light. While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; and Yavanna often would walk there in the shadows, grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked <LQand ill content that it was forsaken>. And she set a sleep . . .
Either of those is fine with me.

CE-SL-01: No, I'm not opposed to interrupting the text for the sake of adding details (which we frequently do), but I thought that the motivation for this was to avoid saying, as in LQ, that Melkor created the Balrogs - since Tolkien had already emended AAm* for this same purpose, and since my general preference is for AAm as the later text, I thought we might use that. You're right that the LQ note offers some additional descriptive details, and I think your last suggestion here is good.

The word "multiplied", used in AAm*, is interesting, and I'm not sure what to make of it - it seems to me that the purpose of this emendation was to remove the statement that Melkor created the Balrogs, and yet it is still said that he "multiplied" them. In any case, given the (presumably later) "no more than 3 or at most 7" note, I agree that "multiplied" must go, and I think your suggestion to replace it with LQ's "gathered" is good.

CE-EX-04: OK, I think we're in agreement here.

Quote:
’Legendary’ character of the Cuivienyarna: Wow, I would not have expected such a ‘inovative’ use of a author’s note to be considered acceptable. But I am okay with this.
Yeah, it was not without some hesitation that I suggested that. But since the purpose of the author's note in this case is to tell us what, exactly, the Cuivienyarna is, and since that's also the purpose of a sub-title, I find it acceptable.

CE-SL-06, -07: I suppose this works. If you do find the "sun of summer" questionable, I'm OK with deleting it, but it seems quite plausible to me that the Elves would delight in the sun; certainly I don't think it's suggested anywhere that they had any antipathy toward it, even if it was associated with the rise of Men.

CE-EX-05.3: Good catch.

CE-EX-06 - -23: OK, good, agreed that this is better suited to volume III.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2019, 07:37 PM   #44
gandalf85
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
gandalf85 has just left Hobbiton.
CE-01: If both of Aiwendil's suggestions are valid, I suppose we must choose for stylistic reasons. I prefer the first suggestion, starting with AAm.

CE-SL-01: I agree to Fin's latest change, and changing "multiplied" to "gathered".

CE-EX-04: I agree to Aiwendil's placement of the Cuivienyarna. I think including the information that this is a child's tale is a great idea, including it in the sub-heading works well.

CE-SL-06, 07: I agree with Fin's changes. I say we keep the sun of summer; the Elves are very much a mix of joy and sorrow, so the idea that they delight in the sun while simultaneously recognizing that it signals their downfall works very well.

CE-EX-06 - -23: Definitely agree with moving this to Volume III.

I have a few other recommendations/changes:

1. There are a few "k->c" changes which need to be made in this chapter, including "Valakirka->Valacirca", "Kuivienen->Cuivienen", "Helkar->Helcar", "Kalaquendi->Calaquendi" and "Orokarni->Orocarni". Also, the change "Ork->Orc" should be made throughout the whole document.

2.In §41:

Quote:
And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)
Is this conversion right? What are we using as the length of a Valian year?

3. A few typos:

Quote:
But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with greatpower - and to entxeat him
"greatpower" should be two words and "entxeat" should be "entreat"

Quote:
them to get the Quendi out of {his}Melkors sphere of influence
"Melkors" should be "Melkor's"

Quote:
and on a powerlevel with the Valar
"powerlevel" should be two words.

4.
Quote:
Then arose a clamour among the {Gods}[Valar] and the most spake for {Palúrien}[Kementári] and Vána, whereas CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar{ – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ In this Measse backed him, and}. Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else...
This is not in keeping with the later conception of Nienna, a goddess of compassion and empathy. I say we change it to: "Mandos {and Fui were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else..."

5.
Quote:
But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with great power - and to entreat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to overcome him by force or guile, and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.>
The idea of the Valar using "guile" doesn't feel in keeping with their later conception, I would simply change it to "overcome him by force {or guile}".

6. I would move the entire "The Clan-names, with notes on other names for divisions of the Eldar" section to Volume 3, to a chapter with other linguistic material.
gandalf85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2019, 02:26 PM   #45
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,555
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
CE-01: I agree with gandalf85 to take Aiwendil’s first proposle. But more important we agree to include CE-EX-03 as well, or not?

CE-SL-06: I am okay with ‘sun of summer’ with the addition of ‘later’ especially since the heraldic signs of Fingoflin and his son was a winged sun. I assume that they toke them after they entered Middle-earth at the first rising of the sun and in a backward application based on Fingoflin’s claim as High King of the Noldor applied the similar heraldic signs to his father Finwë and grand-(who know how often)-sire Tata. We placed that heraldic sign of the House of Tata (NN ‘Patterns’ (the winged sun in the upper right corner, sign of the second House; Artist; no. 183; p. 186) into this chapter.

CE-EX-06: So this means we would let the text stand as following:
Quote:
<AAm
{§41 }And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar CE-EX-05.3{ (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)} it chanced that Oromë rode to {Endon}[Endor] in his hunting, ... he heard afar off many voices singing. CE-EX-05.5{
§42 }Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited.{ And when Oromë looked upon them he was filled with wonder, as though they were things unforeseen and unimagined; and he loved the Quendi, and named them Eldar, the people of the stars.}
{§43 }Yet many of the Quendi were adread at his coming. ... if ever haply they met.
{§44 }Thus it was that when Nahar neighed ... and all the noblest of the Quendi were drawn towards it.> CE-EX-05.2 <Q&E {when}When Oromë appeared among them, and at length some dared to approach him, they asked him his name, and he answered: Oromë. Then they asked him what that signified, and again he answered: Oromë. To me only is it given; for I am Oromë. Yet the titles that he bore were many and glorious; but he withheld them at that time, that the Quendi should not be afraid.
{Nahar, the name of Oromë’s horse. ‘}Otherwise it was{,’ says Pengolodh, ‘} with the steed upon which the Lord Oromë rode. When the Quendi asked his name, and if it bore any meaning, Oromë answered: ‘Nahar, and he is called from the sound of his voice, when he is eager to run.’>
<AAm{§45 }But of those hapless who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living hath descended into the pits of Utumno, or hath explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa: that all those of the Quendi that came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty and wickedness were corrupted and enslaved. CE-EX-06 Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orkor in envy and mockery of the Eldar, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orkor had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance thereof, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orkor loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This maybe was the vilest deed of Melkor and the most hateful to Eru.>
I left the marker CE-EX-06 to make the reference of our discussion clear, but as we decisede know it is no change to the text.
I suppose that the subheading CE-EX-24 can be removed in this case as well, or moved to a later place according to that in AAm.

Gandalf85’s additional points:
1. k -> c: Agreed, I will add these cases to the list of general changes if they are not included already and search the entire text if they are done or not. But fully correct is ‘Cuiviénen’ what so ever it does replace.
While doing this I found that we use only once the word ‘Orocarni’ in the phrase: ‘the {Orokarni}[Orocarni], the Mountains of the East’. Even so that is normaly not the way we do it must we not in this case provide the translation to allowe the connection to the Red Mountains of the Ambarcanta and the Maps? I suppose we exchange ‘Mountains of the East’ with ‘Red Mountains in the East’ and name that change CE-EX-05.4.

2. See posting #42 the removal of this was named CE-EX-05.3.

3. Thank you for pointing these out.

4. You are right, I agree to your suggestion.

5. Agreed.

6. Yes, your wish seems in agreement with ArcusCalion’s latest suggestion and seeing the plans for Volume 3 I can easily agree to this as well. Let us discuss how we handle the original text (which includes a sort of extract of this) when Aiwendil comes to that passage.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2019, 04:42 PM   #46
gandalf85
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
gandalf85 has just left Hobbiton.
CE-01: Yes, we should definitely include CE-EX-03

CE-EX-06: Looks good. I would simply remove CE-EX-24, especially since it has no basis in Tolkien's writings.

1. Agreed to the change CE-EX-05.4

2. Whoops, I must've missed that. Looks good to me.
gandalf85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2019, 12:58 PM   #47
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,149
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!
I continue to make my way through this slowly. Some more comments for now:

CE-EX-25: I suppose LQ does add some details here that may be worth including, but I think that since we have included sections 41-45 of AAm, we must make a small deletion:

Quote:
And Oromë looking upon the Elves was filled with love and wonder, as though they were beings sudden and marvellous and unforetold. For {[}so{]} it shall ever be even with the Valar. From without the world, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and strange.
CE-EX-25.1{Thus it was that Oromë came upon the Quendi by chance in his wandering, while they dwelt yet silent {upon [read }beside{]} the star-lit mere, {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen], Water of Awakening, in the East of Middle-earth.}
In LQ, this sentence comes almost immediately after it is told that Orome found the Elves, but in our text we have already told about this at some length (from AAm).

CE-SL-11: Following Tolkien’s own change to the text here, I think we have to delete a little bit more:

Quote:
CE-SL-11{For a while he abode with them and aided them in the making of language; for that was their first work of craft upon Earth, and ever most dear to their hearts, and the fair Elvish speech was sweet in the ears of the Valar. Then swiftly Oromë rode back over land and sea to Valinor, filled with the thought of the beauty of the Elves, and he brought the tidings to Valmar. And the {Gods}[Valar] rejoiced, and yet were amazed at what he told; but}<LQ; Ch. 3; Note to §19 Then swiftly he rode back over land and sea to Valinor, filled with the thought of the beauty of the long-awaited, and he brought the tidings to Valmar.
Tolkien deleted the “for a while he abode with them”, and thus changed the story so that Orome immediately returned to Valinor, and only afterward came and stayed with the Elves for a while at Cuivienen.

CE-EX-26: As ever, I think I’m a little bit more hesitant than others to transplant scattered bits from the Lost Tales into our narrative, but I can make no real objection to this. But there is a ‘may’ that must become ‘might’ in the past tense. Also, I am not completely sure, but I think that in later Quenya, the root vowel is prefixed to a verb in the perfect tense, so it should become utulielto instead of tulielto (cf. utulien aure, ‘the day has come’). So:

Quote:
CE-EX-26 <LT Oromë {pricks}pricked over the plain, and drawing rein he {shouts}shouted aloud so that all the ears in Valmar {may}might hear him: ‘Utulielto! Utulieito! They have come - they have come!’ Then he {stands}stood midway between the Two Trees and {winds}wound his horn, and the gates of Valmar {are}were opened, and the Vali trooped into the plain, for they guessed that tidings of wonder {have}had come into the world.
CE-EX-27: I’m a little unsure about changing the words of Palurien here to the thoughts of Orome, though I guess it works. More problematic is the use of the word ‘Eldar’ here, since Orome hasn’t yet had a chance to learn their language and name them that.

CE-EX-28: It’s true that Angainor still exists in the later versions, though I must admit that some of the LT detail of its making feel a little out of place to me. But chiefly I worry about the name tilkal and its strange etymology. As far as I can tell, ‘tambe’, ‘latuken’, ‘ilsa’, and ‘kanu’ never show up again after the LT era, and in later Quenya, ‘laure’ is explicitly said to refer to gold as a colour, but not to the metal. I suppose we could try keeping ‘tilka’, but removing the etymology:

Quote:
CE-EX-28 <LT ; and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named {therefore} tilkal, {[Footnote in the manuscript: T(ambe) I(lsa) L(atuken) K(anu) A(nga) L(aure). ilsa and laure are the 'magic' names of ordinary telpe and kulu.]} and this had . . .
Incidentally, I have no real problem with the word ‘magic’ here (there are plenty of other, more jarring to me, elements from the LT that we have included in our version), but I will not argue against changing it to ‘power’ either.

There is also a missing change from ‘Angaino’ to ‘Angainor’ just following this. ‘Vorotemnar’ and ‘Ilterindi’ looks fine to me, though.

CE-EX-29: There seems to me to be both some redundancy and some contradiction here between LT, MT, and LQ - notably, that in LQ the Valar go immediately to war and show no intention of “entreating” Melkor to change his ways, so at the very least I think this statement from LT must go. Moreover, I think the MT statement is (aside from being again written with an analytical rather than narrative tone) part of what we might have to consider a projected and unimplementable sketch for a new version of the story, where Utumno is not sacked by the Valar, but rather Melkor guilefully surrenders to them. But I suppose I should consider that when I come to the proper place in reviewing the text. Of more immediate concern is that this statement clearly contradicts LQ, where the intention of the Valar is to defeat Melkor, not merely to provide a “covering action” to defend the Quendi. Findegil has made one change to eliminate this contradiction, in the deletion of “and make an end”, but we still have this:

Quote:
And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor.'
If we do decide to follow the MT idea that the Valar did not expect to defeat Melkor but only went to war intending to give the Elves time to come to Aman, then we must find some way to remove this. It could be done by taking the shorter account from AAm:

Quote:
. . . and sweet was the Elven-tongue on the ears of the Valar. But> CE-SL-11.5<AAm Manwë sat long in thought upon Taniquetil, and he resolved at the last to make war upon Melkor, though Arda should receive yet more hurts in that strife.> <LQ Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, . . .
At any rate, it seems to me that the MT statement here, even if we decide that its content can be adopted into our version, rather loses its point when removed from its context - that context being that Melkor has now dispersed his power, so that it comes as a surprise to the Valar that they are able to defeat him. So even if we decide to use this paragraph from MT, I’d prefer to find some way to keep the paragraph together in one piece.

I would, therefore, do this:

Quote:
{But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with greatpower - and to entxeat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to overcome him by force or guile, and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.}>
{§21} But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the CE-SL-12{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor in the North CE-SL-12.1{ and make an end.
Where I’ve broken off CE-SL-12.1 as its own number because it is only necessary in case we decide to adopt the MT statement.

CE-EX-30: I’ve gone back and forth on this a little bit, but in the end I don’t think I have any problem with the inclusion of this description of the Valar’s battle array.

Coming back to CE-EX-03, my inclination is still not to include it, as I think the motivation for the council is already very clearly implied, but again, it's a minor point and if others disagree I certainly won't put up a fight.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2019, 05:50 PM   #48
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,555
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
CE-EX-25.1: Agreed.

CE-SL-11: Agreed.

CE-EX-26: Agreed.

CE-EX-27: I suppose we can change ‘Eldar’ here to ‘the First-born’.

CE-EX-28: Sad as it is to loos it, I agree to remove the etymology.

CE-EX-29: For me it is MT that we have to follow if it contradicts the earlier story telling. Therefore I agree that we have do something with the speech of Manwë. But I would like to offer an alternative editing:
Quote:
… and sweet was the Elven-tongue on the ears of the Valar. But> Manwë sat long upon Taniquetil deep in thought, and he sought the counsel of Ilúvatar. And coming then down to {Valmar}[Valimar] he called a conclave of the Great, and thither came even Ulmo from the Outer Sea.
And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should CE-SL-11.5b{take up again the mastery of Arda, }at whatsoever cost{, and}<AAm make war upon Melkor, though Arda should receive yet more hurts in that strife> and deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, …
I propose to include the MT statement into CE-EX-39 as a kind of retrospecife.

CE-EX-03: So we will include it, since gandalf85 and me agree that it has some importance.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2019, 07:42 PM   #49
gandalf85
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
gandalf85 has just left Hobbiton.
CE-EX-25 and CE-SL-11: Agreed

CE-EX-26: The languages are not my strong suit, so I'll defer to you and agree.

CE-EX-27: Good catch! Agreed to changing it to the "First-born".

CE-EX-28: I'm sad to see it go too, but if the etymology doesn't work, it needs to go.

CE-EX-29: We mention how Melkor has dispersed his power into his agents when the Valar confront him. I think splitting up the paragraph from MT works, but I agree that Manwe's speech needs to be modified. I like Fin's edit, the part of that speech that's contradictory is the bit about taking up again the mastery of Arda. The rest of it seems in keeping with the rest of the narrative. I agree that the tonal shift at CE-EX-39 is a bit jarring, but this part of MT is definitely workable in the narrative without doing great violence to it, and since they are Tolkien's latest thoughts we should keep them.
gandalf85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2019, 06:01 PM   #50
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,149
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Continuing to work through this slowly, as we now come to what I think may be the most difficult (or at least most contentious) bit.

Quote:
Upon those shores Falman-Ossë met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo Vailimo was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches.
I’m unsure about “Falman” and “Vailimo”. I see that ArcusCalion emends “Vailimo” to “Vaiaro”, but what is the source for this?

Quote:
Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.> Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved. CE-SL-36{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him}CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Kuivienen; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into the far North and began the long siege of Utumno.
{ 1092-1100}
§49 That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.
Here I think we have some redundancy between LQ and AAm, and I also think that the “Never did Melkor forget . . .” passage from LQ is awkwardly placed, as it now interrupts the more vivid telling of the Valar’s march to war. The redundancy is that we describe the damage and geographical changes to the earth twice. I think we could either delete the interruption from LQ, or perhaps just delete the statement about Middle-earth being changed and broken, and change the paragraph divisions slightly:

Quote:
Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.>
<LQ Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. CE-EX-35.5{In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved.} CE-SL-36{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him}>CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Kuivienen; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into the far North and began the long siege of Utumno.
{ 1092-1100}
§49 That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.
CE-EX-37: This addition from LT seems to me to contradict what has just been said (from AAm). In the LT account, the Valar come to the gates of Utumno and immediately break them open (by means of Oromë’s horn). But from AAm we have just said that there was a long and grievous siege, lasting two years, that involved many battles before the gates. One might try to save something of the LT account here by changing it so that after the long siege and battles, Oromë’s horn blast is what finally breaks down the gates, but that invites the question: if that’s all it took, why didn’t they do that right away? I think it’s safer to remove this addition from LT.

CE-EX-39: Now we come to what I’m sure will prove one of the real sticking points. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the story given in MT VI must be considered a projected change under principle 2b, that we cannot take up. That text does not constitute a narrative; it is a working note, in Tolkien's voice, on changes he intended to make to the story. To make it work as narrative, it is (as I think Findegil's draft shows) necessary to perform a lot of editorial work, and in the end the product is not really satisfactory.

Now, it is true that we have a long-established precedent of not worrying about style, and not worrying if two texts written in very different styles stand next to each other. But as far as I'm concerned, that is about narrative texts in different literary styles - mixing in texts clearly written from an 'external' point of view and in a distinctly non-literary style is something else entirely. Moreover, it's one thing to take a paragraph from one source and a paragraph from another, very different, one; it's again another thing entirely to take two texts that tell utterly different stories, one a full-scale narrative and the other an author's note to himself, and to mangle them together phrase by phrase.

So, I think we are more than justified under principle 2b in rejecting any elements of MT VI that cannot be adopted without butchering the text. The only question in my mind is whether any of it should be adopted, or whether the whole thing must be considered of a piece, and rejected entirely. As I see it, MT VI says the following things:

1. Melkor was, in origin, the greatest of the Valar
2. The Valar went to war with Melkor without any real hope of victory
3. Melkor had dispersed much of his power into his servants and into the very fabric of Arda
4. Manwë and Melkor both become aware of this change in Melkor when they encounter each other
5. Melkor submits, or pretends to submit, to the Valar (rather than being defeated and chained).

Point 1 presents no problem, and we've already incorporated it in chapter 1. Point 2 we have discussed here already, and it doesn't pose any problems for the storyline, though how to incorporate it without mangling the text is an open question. Similar considerations apply to points 3 and 4, I think - they are not problematic from a story point of view, but I think the current way they are incorporated into Findegil's draft is not good. Note that even if we decide that these points are valid, that does not necessarily mean that we must find some way of introducing them into the text - these could be considered simply an extra-textual analysis of the story. Point 5, though, contradicts the narrative texts of this section, and this is the point that I think must be regarded as an unworkable projected change.

So the questions for me are, first, whether we can really consider these separate points or must consider them as a whole and discard the whole thing, and second, if we decide on the former, whether points 2, 3, and 4 can be worked into the text in a reasonable way.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2019, 02:46 PM   #51
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
ArcusCalion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 497
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
Greetings. Life has been very busy for me lately, and so I have not had time to review all these updates and discussions. I will only drop in now to say that {Vailimo}[Vaiaro] was my attempt to update the old Qenya to Quenya, and may indeed be inaccurate. In addition, the updated Quenya of Oromë's declaration should be: 'Utúlieltë' and the Valar's response should be 'I-Eldar utúlier'

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 04-07-2019 at 02:49 PM.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2019, 02:30 PM   #52
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,555
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
CE-EX-35.5: Agreed.

CE-EX-37: I can see your point, but I think removal is a radical cure, where slight modification should be sufficient. A gate unprotected by defenders is worthless and a gate closed all the time during a siege would not allow for many battles before it (in that case the battle would be ‘at the gate’ not before it). Consider for example the Gate of Angband: It was some times shut to keep out intruders like Fingolfin (twice), during the great Battles it was allway opened to let out Morgorth Armies, and in that way Gwindor could even enter during his rush. So for me the many battles before the gates of Utumno are part of the Valar dealing with Melkor’s might dispersed into his servance piecemeal. And their position before the gates show rather that during that time Melkor still had control over the gates and he still could send out his forces. In such a situation forcing the gate open by a horn blow of Oromë would be useless, because either the gate was already open and the defenders coming out, or the Valar did know well that they couldn’t get in as long as the defenders were active. Only after the Valar had fought down the defence in this series of battles they got control area directlybefore the gate and could try overcoming that ‘mechanical barrier’. And we see that even that first attempt of the Valar to enter Utumno was not fully succesfull, since Melkor had kept until that last and desperate moment the Balrogs as his most powerfull force.
But again I can see that he editing does not take enough count of this interpretation of the events. My suggestion is find below.

CE-EX-39: Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Now we come to what I’m sure will prove one of the real sticking points.
True!
It is clear that MT VI can be considered altogether or in parts under principle 2b. I as well agree that the style is in parts awakward for our propose, and that this is underlined by the way in which I mixed the sources (the nice think about a group work is, that there is alway a corrective).
I agree to your analyses of the essential features of MT VI and on the fact that point 1. to 4. are less critical then 5.. For me it is not clear why the pretended submission of Melkor should pose a bigger problem. Of course we will lose the fight of Melkor and Tulkas and the chaning with Angainor, but to build a narrative covering the storyl line of MT VI should be possible.
So here is my suggestion taking as well your earlier critisem into account: we should try to keep MT VI more together and use it as a kind of retrospective refelction probably before the council of the Valar that dealt with Melkor:
Quote:
§49 That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.
{ 1099
§50 }It came to pass that at last CE-EX-37b <LT {There }in the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar {Ringil}[of Illuin] {they}[the Valar] came upon the huge gates of deep {Utumna}[Utumno], and {Melko}[Melkor] shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade {Melko}[Mekor] come forth.
But though deep down within those halls {Melko}[Melkor] heard him and was in doubt, he would not come.> §50 {It}Thus it came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken and its halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-EX-38 {a host of}<AAm, late scribbeld changes his> Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained <AAm, late scribbeld changes faithfull to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.>

CE-EX-38.1<LT But {though deep down within those halls Melko heard him and was in doubt, he}[u]Melkor[/b] would still not come, but sent {Langon his}a servant and said by him that "Behold, he was rejoiced and in wonder to see the {Gods}[Valar] before his gates. Now would he gladly welcome them, yet for the poverty of his abode not more than two of them could he fitly entertain; and he begged that neither Manwë nor Tulkas be of the two, for the one merited and the other demanded hospitality of great cost and richness. Should this not be to their mind then would he fain hearken to Manwe's herald and learn what it were the {Gods}[Valar] so greatly desired that they must leave their soft couches and indolence of Valinor for the bleak places where {Melko}[Melkor] laboured humbly and did his toilsome work."
Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear from {Melko}[Melkor]'s words that he was awake and wary in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the {Gods}[Valar] he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how these twain may come upon him CE-EX-38.2{ unawares} and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways." To this Manwe assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }" or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwe sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4<LT Then the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and now they follow Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. Then said Manwë: "Behold, we have come and salute you here in your own halls; come now and be in Valinor." But Melko might not thus easily forgo his sport. "Nay first," said he, "wilt thou come Manwe and kneel before me, and after you all the Valar; but last shall come Tulkas and kiss my foot, for I have in mind something for which I owe Poldorea no great love." Now he purposed to spurn Tulkas in the mouth in payment of that buffet long ago. Thus> CE-EX-38.6 <MT; VI Manwë at last {faces}faced Melkor again, as he {has}had not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}were amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he {has}had now less personal force than Manwë, and {can}could no longer daunt him with his gaze.> CE-EX-38.7 <MT; VI Possibly (and he {thinks}thought it possible) he could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' - if and before his dispersed forces {reassemble}reassembled.> CE-EX-38.8 <MT; VI He {feigns}feigned remorse and repentance. He actually {kneels}kneeled before Manwë and {surrenders}surrendered.>
CE-EX-38.9<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.>
CE-EX-38.91<LQ Nonetheless the CE-SL-17{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor{ at Utumno} had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour. CE-EX-44b <LT Now Tulkas and Ulmo {break}brook the gates of {Utumna}[Utumno] and {pile}piled hills of stone upon them. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when {Melko}[Melkor] was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of {Melko}[Melkor] find their end.
After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to {Valmar}[Valimar] by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> CE-EX-44.5 <MT; VI Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[Footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).>
CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is }a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small{, lying bound} and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him {speaketh}spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violenceCE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} Thereat arose {Palúrien}[Kementári] in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but {Melko}[Melkor] CE-SL-14{writhed}[simmered] in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15{unchained Melko and }fought {him}Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.>CE-EX-39c <MT; VI
The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of {his}Melkor’s sphere of influence. But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming ' CE-EX-40{the Morgoth, }a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), {+}and his agents'. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the CE-EX-41{Morgoth}[tyrant]' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a power level with the Valar. The Valar {find}found that they {can}could deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they {come}came at last to Utumno itself and {find}found that {'the Morgoth'}[Melkor] {has}had no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. CE-EX-42{Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.
Either }Manwë {must tell him so or}had told Melkor and he {must }himself suddenly {realize (or both) }had realized that this {has}had happened: he {is}was 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, {has}had become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (/as it /possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement and repentance only) he {cannot}could not bring himself to do it.[Footnote to the text: One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', CE-EX-43b{Orcs, Balrogs, etc. }power of recuperation and multiplication{. So}, so that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power {has}had gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control.] {As with all other characters there must be}/There was/ a trembling moment when {it is}/he was/ in the balance: he nearly {repents}repented - and {does}did not, and {becomes}became much wickeder, and more foolish.
CE-EX-43.2{Possibly (and he thinks it possible) he could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' - if and before his dispersed forces reassemble. }So - as soon as he {has}had mentally rejected repentance - he {(just like Sauron afterwards on this model) makes}made a mockery of selfabasement and repentance. From {which}this actually he {gets}got a kind of perverted pleasure as in desecrating something holy – {[}for the mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his true primeval nature.{]} He {feigns remorse and}feigned repentance CE-EX-43.4{. He actually kneels before Manwë and surrenders} - in the first instance to avoid being chained by the Chain Angainor, which once upon him he {fears}feared would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he {has}had the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he {offers}offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he {has}had done. It {is}was this offer which {seduces}seduced or {deludes}deluded Manwë{ -}/./ Manwë {must be shown to have}/had/ his own inherent fault (though not sin)[Footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]: he {has}had become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the {status quo}[present state]' - to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he {grants}had granted Melkor's prayer.
CE-EX-43.5{Melkor is taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[Footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who follows bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).
}But at the council Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).
Then {he begins}Melkor began to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion{ - but}/. But/ he {is}was now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory{. He cannot}/, he could not do this/. Therefore he {swallows}swallowed the bitter pill (but it greatly {increases}increased his hate, and he ever {afterward}afterwards accused Manwë of being faithless).> CE-EX-47{and}And he was {bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and} led captive CE-SL-16b{; and the world had peace for a great age. Nonetheless the fortress of Melkor at Utumno had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
§22 But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor bound hand and foot and blindfold, and he was cast} into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for {seven [>}three{]} ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon CE-SL-18{.}<moved from above ; and the world had peace for a great age.>
§23 Then again the {Gods}[Valar] were gathered in council ...
Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2019, 05:27 PM   #53
gandalf85
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
gandalf85 has just left Hobbiton.
CE-EX-35.5: Aiwendil's change looks good to me.

CE-EX-37: I agree with Fin's analysis. It is what I had assumed when reading the original text. Since his reworking makes it more clear, I agree to it.

CE-EX-39: I do not see why point 5 is contradictory and unworkable. Melkor's forces are defeated, and then he feigns remorse and repentance instead of choosing to fight on. I agree that the prose is more analytical at points rather than narrative, but I think if we want to include these points this is the best place to do it. I actually think Fin's original more chronological edit works better than his latest proposed change where there is a sort of reflection after the confrontation with Melkor. I propose either we use the original editing, or move all the extra-textual analysis about Melkor's dispersal of his power to Volume 3. I will think about it some more, but right now I'm leaning towards the former.
gandalf85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2019, 06:22 AM   #54
gandalf85
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
gandalf85 has just left Hobbiton.
Just wanted to check in on how everyone is doing. I'm taking two classes at Signum this semester: Beyond Middle Earth (which focuses on Tolkien's short stories and academic work) and Beowulf in Old English (where we translate Beowulf into Modern English). It's keeping me pretty busy. How is everyone doing?
gandalf85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2019, 08:27 AM   #55
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,149
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!
I've been trying to find a chunk of time to continue reviewing this chapter. I'll really make an effort to do so in the next two or three days.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:03 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.