A moving moment, in hindsight.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

On my zillionth rereading of LR, and just got to the departure of the Fellowship from Rivendell. There occurs this exchange (mocked by some as trading platitudes):

'This is my last word,' [Elrond] said in a low voice. 'The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid.... The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. ... yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.'

'Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens,' said Gimli.

'Maybe,' said Elrond, 'but let him not vow to walk in the dark, who has
not seen the nightfall.'

'Yet sworn word may strengthen quaking heart,' said Gimli.

'Or break it,' said Elrond.

It would take two decades before the hidden grief was revealed to readers: Elrond was raised by Maglor. No heart in the history of Arda was more broken by sworn word!

[Morthoron]

Good catch, WCH. I had not considered that. Or as you inferred, I did not take it in the context that Elrond could have intended.

That whole Maglor adopting Elrond and Elros sequence is relatively short, and leaves a great chasm into what actually happened. For instance, did Elrond and Elros actually know as children what happened to Earendil and Elwing? Did Maglor even know? It could be assumed that they had died, couldn't it? And who would be to blame for that but the sons of Feanor? Seems odd that great love could spring from this adoption unless there was at least an inkling about what happened.

Perhaps I am misremembering, but I am feeling uniquely lazy today. I think I'll take a bike ride with my wife and then feel more...scholarly.

[Pervinca Took]

By sworn word, you mean the Oath taken by Feanor and his sons?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It would take two decades before the hidden grief was revealed to readers: Elrond was raised by Maglor. No heart in the history of Arda was more broken by sworn word!

Oh. Oh, wow. I never even thought of that. That's amazingly tragic.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That whole Maglor adopting Elrond and Elros sequence is relatively short, and leaves a great chasm into what actually happened. For instance, did Elrond and Elros actually know as children what happened to Earendil and Elwing? Did Maglor even know? It could be assumed that they had died, couldn't it? And who would be to blame for that but the sons of Feanor? Seems odd that great love could spring from this adoption unless there was at least an inkling about what happened.

I think almost everyone would have thought them both dead. Earendil was trying to sail to Valinor, an endeavour which had sunk almost every ship that attempted it; when he didn't come back, the natural assumption would be that he was just the latest casualty. Elwing was last seen leaping off a cliff into the sea; only a crazy person would believe she'd been magically transformed into a bird on the way down.

Of course, the refugees from the Havens would probably assume the twins were dead, too: Tolkien seems to have settled on their names coming from being found at a cave by a waterfall, so it doesn't sound like anyone from the Havens saw them being captured rather than killed (as the previous generation of Doriathrin royal twins had been).

That great love did spring from Maglor's raising of the pair is seen through those very names: the timelines suggest the twins were six at the Third Kinslaying, easily old enough to remember their own names! I'd conjecture that they refused to give their names to Maglor when he found them - he was, after all, the person who'd just destroyed their home, even if they didn't know about their mother yet - and so he coined two nicknames for them. The fact that those nicknames stuck, and were still in use over six thousand years later, tells you how close they must have been.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Oh. Oh, wow. I never even thought of that. That's amazingly tragic.

That... is exactly my reaction. Gee. I never interpreted Elrond's words that way, he was just being vaguely wise and foresighted (given the decisions made after the Breaking of the Fellowship). But oh my god. What if he actually had another great quest in mind that went too far because of an oath. That is... wow.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Oh. Oh, wow. I never even thought of that. That's amazingly tragic.



I think almost everyone would have thought them both dead. Earendil was trying to sail to Valinor, an endeavour which had sunk almost every ship that attempted it; when he didn't come back, the natural assumption would be that he was just the latest casualty. Elwing was last seen leaping off a cliff into the sea; only a crazy person would believe she'd been magically transformed into a bird on the way down.

Of course, the refugees from the Havens would probably assume the twins were dead, too: Tolkien seems to have settled on their names coming from being found at a cave by a waterfall, so it doesn't sound like anyone from the Havens saw them being captured rather than killed (as the previous generation of Doriathrin royal twins had been).

That great love did spring from Maglor's raising of the pair is seen through those very names: the timelines suggest the twins were six at the Third Kinslaying, easily old enough to remember their own names! I'd conjecture that they refused to give their names to Maglor when he found them - he was, after all, the person who'd just destroyed their home, even if they didn't know about their mother yet - and so he coined two nicknames for them. The fact that those nicknames stuck, and were still in use over six thousand years later, tells you how close they must have been.

hS

It is however also the case that, at six, they might not yet have received their mother-names from Elwing; and since among Elves the father-name given at birth was considered private (usually), Elrond and Elros could have been epesse, which frequently became an Elf's everyday name (Gil-Galad, Galadriel, Felagund etc)

[Galin]

I'm not sure the letter dated 1958 necessarily represents Tolkien's final scenario here, as the idea is connected to Elrond meaning *Elf of the Cave...

... and not long after, Elrond is said to mean "Star-dome" (1959-60, Quendi and Eldar).

In The Shibboleth of Feanor (1968 or later) it was said that the names Elros and Elrond: "were formed to recall the name of their mother Elwing" with Elros meaning "Starlit foam"

And in The Problem of ROS (1968 or later): "Now Elrond was a word for the firmament, the starry dome as it appeared like a roof to Arda; and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the throne of Elwe in the midst of his stronghold Menegroth that was called the Menelrond,..."

And in letter 345 (1972) Elrond meant "The vault of stars"

If a meaning "Elf of the Cave" is out, as it appears at least, my total guess is that the story went out with it.

Not necessarily so, I admit; but anyway.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

On my zillionth rereading of LR, and just got to the departure of the Fellowship from Rivendell. There occurs this exchange (mocked by some as trading platitudes):


It would take two decades before the hidden grief was revealed to readers: Elrond was raised by Maglor. No heart in the history of Arda was more broken by sworn word!

I don't see those moments as platitudes. Very moving, to see them quoted. Makes you wonder what Maglor was fixated about, and where he was marred by the Oath of Feanor, and how Elrond and Elros read that. I didn't know Maglor raised Elrond, or else I forgot that he had, but learning alters my understanding of Elrond.

The experience as we age impacts tones heard as we read and I'm repeatedly surprised each time it happens. Tolkien's heart and its depth comes across when I read the words.

His wisdom about death, quailing hearts and broken words, with lies of conceit from self-deceivers something that comes up for me. And this:

"And Sauron was deceived, even unto himself", which we are told, when Eonwe does not heed Sauron's obeisance, as he pleaded for Clemency. I wonder where Elrond was when Sauron was pleading, and what dread he knew as the Quest departed.