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04-15-2006, 02:55 PM | #41 | |
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So, we can take it then, that you believe that people can become evil, that they can do horrible things, live in cultures that do not respect life, limb, or the weak, and yet remain Unfallen? Would you call the Dunlendings as generally seen, or Herumor, Fuinur, or any of their Black Númenorean-allied Haradrim, or the Witchking, or corrupt King Fengel of Rohan, or Dorlas of Tol-Brandir, or Ulfang and his kin, or the Master of Esgaroth as Unfallen? Unfallen in Tolkien's world means the primordial state of the race, as intended by Eru. Evil, in any form, is a sign of a Fall, unless imposed from without. Any evil that comes from within a person is a sign of that person's fall, as well as the fall of his or her entire race. Fëanor's fall was his, and his alone, but all of the Exiles fell with him, even those who had no evil intent, such as Galadriel or Finrod. I think it a very rash and opinionated statement to say that there would be no reason to believe that Men had Fallen without the Athrabeth.
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04-15-2006, 03:04 PM | #42 |
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Legolas, let me explain. What Mith meant is that you were wrong in stating that Catholics are "in some aspects a derivation of" Christianity. They are not in any way a "derivation". The Roman Catholic church is a Christian church, entirely and unequivocally, and one of the oldest Christian Churches in existence. Furthermore, it is the world's largest Christian Church, over half the world's Christians belong to it.
This is important to get straight, as this is a Tolkien site and Tolkien was a Catholic.
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04-15-2006, 03:23 PM | #43 | |
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04-15-2006, 04:54 PM | #44 | |||||
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04-15-2006, 08:34 PM | #45 | ||||||
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Legolas errs, I think, in labeling intelligence as the cause of the Fall. The cause of the Fall was pride. Seeking forbidden knowledge in despite of the command was merely the particular act that was emblematic of the root of sin which was pride. Quote:
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Wisdom and intelligence are most certainly not the same thing. |
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04-15-2006, 09:29 PM | #46 |
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To ride the fallen horse a bit longer, when we say fallen in regards to Christianity, we are talking about a decision that plunged the entire universe! into a completely different state. As an example, and I'm no theologian, but weren't preFall lions purportedly vegetarians?
In Genesis God declares His creation very Good, meaning that there is no stain, no decay (no entropy!), no ungood. When Adam and Eve fall, everything changes. And in making a mate for Adam, God provides him a companion. In Arda Elves can (though rarely) serve the same purpose. As I stated posts ago, find please this Fall in Arda. You might have evil, compare Satan to Melkor, but Arda was already running amuck before humans showed up.
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04-16-2006, 02:13 AM | #47 | ||||||||
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Finally, in support of Alatar's point on the Fall I can only quote Tolkien's words: Quote:
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 04-16-2006 at 02:28 AM. |
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04-16-2006, 03:50 PM | #48 | |||
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alatar, well said. You've shown me something I had not seen before. |
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04-16-2006, 04:31 PM | #49 | |||
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If there is a significant difference in the later drafts it is in Frodo's behaviour on returning to the Shire. In the early draft he returns as a hero & in fact slays the chief ruffian in hand to hand combat. But I don't see how Frodo's ultimate fate in the published version is specifically 'Christian'. For anyone who is interested this article shows the desperate ends Christians have gone to in their efforts to 'prove' LotR is a 'Christian', specifically a Catholic, work. I think any objective reader will admit that the author's 'proofs' are merely similarities at best & silly at worst ('Did I mention that Aragorn looks like Christ?' the author of the article says at one point - I mean puh-leese!).
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 04-16-2006 at 04:35 PM. |
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04-16-2006, 08:17 PM | #50 | ||||||||||||||||
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What I do find interesting is that Tolkien's statement in Letter #142 ... Quote:
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davem's assertion of curiosity versus pride drove me to some research, and I found something interesting. Quote:
But back to Legolas' initial inquiry, which I don't think ever got addressed: What about the Elves? Were they Angels? |
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04-16-2006, 08:53 PM | #51 | |
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And here are 2X three words that to me absolve Adam and Eve, as they were created "in our image, in our likeness" (that would be God speaking). Like Aulë, weren't Adam and Eve just trying to be like their Father, not mocking him or pridefully hoping to gainsay him, but simply hoping to just be like him. My daughter, helping me with her toy screwdriver, is not acting with pride, but love. The serpent states that A&E will be more like their Father if they do something they ought not. Like the Dwarves who cringed when Aulë made to smash them, is it necessary for life to go outside the bounds set by its creator, to do something new? My kids attest to this (and they would have accidently broken the vase ). On the other hand, having children does make one tend to believe in original sin... In a lame attempt to tie back into the thread, I say again that I do not see certain religious images within Arda when I peer beneath the surface.
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04-16-2006, 08:57 PM | #52 | |
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Consequently, what was a risky trait before the Fall was a Sinful trait thereafter, for the entire nature of God/Man relationships had changed. At least, that's the simple explanation, anyway. After all, there is perfectly legitimate pride in things that one has done right, done well, or has the capability to do. It is not sinful to know that one is accomplished, and be pleased with that fact.
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04-17-2006, 02:56 AM | #53 | ||||
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Tolkien made some contradictory statements regarding LotR - he states at one point that all references to organised religion have been 'cut out' - now I've read the early drafts & I can tell you such references were not 'cut out' because the only ones in we find in the early drafts actually remained or were added - to clarify: in 'The Road Goes Ever On' he points out the hymns to Elbereth & states 'These & other references to religion in LotR are frequently overlooked'! So, he's saying on the one hand that he has deliberately 'cut out' references to religion, but on the other chiding his readers for not seeing the references to relligion which are in the book. |
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04-17-2006, 02:06 PM | #54 | |
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And why an apple? Is that what the Bible states, or it that a tradition? Were apples native to the region? Did you ever notice that many depictions of Jesus are not of a Middle Eastern person? And yet... My son now wants to wear his hair long like Aragorn. Like others have posted, one could say that Aragorn looks somewhat like Jesus. There was a time when long hair on men was taboo, as was seen as a sign of rebellion. Back in that day I loved hearing the verbal pretzels regarding the reasoning why Jesus could wear his hair long yet no man in the congregation could.
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04-17-2006, 02:51 PM | #55 |
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"my hair like Jesus wore it, hallelujah I adore it, Mother Mary loved her son, why don't my momma love me..."
I think that's how it went....
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04-17-2006, 03:53 PM | #56 | ||
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This was a deliberate policy on behalf of the church. In Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the english Church & People we find the following letter from Pope Gregory: Quote:
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04-17-2006, 04:32 PM | #57 | |
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Actually, now that I've thought about it more, my point is again that people see that which they are used to seeing. Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all of that. Tinúviel always looked like a girl I idolized in my past, not Liv Tyler. If you think that Eden had an apple tree, all well and good, but is that because you could not imagine an orange tree, having lived your life just below the Arctic Circle? If one sees a Christ-like figure in Aragorn, or Gandalf, or Frodo, what does it tell us of the viewer? So if we have a person who lives in Middle Earth, what then can he/she see? You might see one thing, but he/she may be limited to the ideas and items in that world. One would think that if Biblical history were concurrent with Middle Earth's history, being one and the same but just concerning different regions, you might hear or read characters making references to the things in the other 'history.' So again, Middle Earth has no Second Adam as it never had the first, no matter what you might see. Middle Earth does, however, have apples.
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04-17-2006, 04:38 PM | #58 |
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What interests me is that not only did the Normans virtually cut off Anglo Saxon culture, but the coming of Christianity to Britain virtually cut off the culture of the Britons. And then Tolkien attempted to write a mythology he could dedicate to England?
I think it is clear that he recognised and tried to recover something of the pre-Christian England as it is there in his work. He speculates on what Barrows might have been used for, creates characters from the tree spirits of the Wild Wood, creates mysterious remains of ancient civilisations in Rohan, makes Goldberry and the River Woman from tales of water goddesses. Numenor has a direct line from ancient British legends of lost lands - possibly an echo in real British legends of the time when the seas rose to form the English Channel. He even makes use of language to recover some of this lost History. The Elves in particular have echoes of Faerie, and Faeries may be the lost Britons who went to the edges of the islands, together with their rich culture. What is fascinating is that even after over 1,000 years the old Britain is not totally lost. Speaking for myself, I am one of those who was woken up by Tolkien to go and find it again.
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04-17-2006, 05:39 PM | #59 | |
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To go back to Legolas' original question, yes you can see parallel's between Christianity and Tolkien's created world and myths but, as davem said, it is more based on the myths of old than the Bible, if it is accepted that the myths came first and the writers of the Bible (and here the fundamnetalist view must be ignored) twisted them to fit their own uses. Also, the parallel's may be drawn in order that a reader can find something they recognise within the stories. A tale is subject to the interpretation of it's readers, so that whether Tolkien intended his tale to be Christian or not, even if he had fundamentally and categorically stated with no previous or later contradictions that it was or was not, either way there would still be people who read different things into it.
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04-17-2006, 08:28 PM | #60 | ||||||||||||
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The strategy from the quote of Pope Gregory is known as "accomodation", and is in my belief inadequate. It's all outward and does not deal with the heart, where the Spirit of God does the real work. Had that been the key to Gregory's strategy, who knows how things might have gone better over the last 1500 years? And for myself, getting back to the original question, I am most interested in (1) Tolkien's use of Elves in reference to the Atlantis legend, and (2) the many legends of sea-faring peoples who came from advanced cultures to northern Europe and delivered their wisdom and culture to the indigenous. There are the Milesians who came to Ireland, which may be the inspiration for that old Historia Britonum (please correct me someone, I know I just murdered it) which has the Trojans establishing Britain. In like manner, Tolkien has the Numenoreans come from the sinking Isle to establish their culture in Gondor and Arnor. What grabs my attention is the disconnected legends of the Irish and the known history we have of Asia Minor, giving us on one hand the folkloric "Milesians" and on the other, the citizens of Miletus, just a hundred or so miles south of Troy, which surely was just as affected by the fortunes both good and ill that befell Troy, and sent whole citizenries to their ships to find harbor in far-off ports anywhere from Carthage to Asturia to Brittany to Ireland to the Shetlands. And then there is the legend of the Fomori from the north ... there's that thing of the north again ... which puts me yet again in mind of Tolkien's choice of Morgoth in northern Thangorodrim. But now I'm wandering all over the folkloric map..... Last edited by littlemanpoet; 04-18-2006 at 07:46 PM. |
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04-18-2006, 04:12 AM | #61 | ||
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04-18-2006, 05:16 AM | #62 | |
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And I can understand when you say that life must live on the path set by an omniscient Creator, as what else can it do, but as 1/3 of the angels fell, as Adam and Eve fell, I question if God does not want at least some of His creations to take the road less travelled. Eru was generous to Aule.
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04-18-2006, 05:59 AM | #63 |
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I don't think that Tolkien did, other than perhaps in Tom Bombadil's comment about "the dark when it was fearless", portray a prelapsarian Arda. (Of course, I'm going by the Sil here and he may well have written other versions, so maybe HoME readers can prove me wrong) But in the Sil, Arda was marred by Melkor before any sentient life appeared.
I always assumed the Maia who joined Melkor = Fall of the Angels. Atlantis/Numenor, of course, but what about parallels between Numenor and the Flood? (I must say, I agree with the reservations davem and others have expressed about Adam and Eve and the serpent, but what I find really difficult getting to grips with, is the Flood. Even if we could accept that all humanity, even new born babies, were irredeemably evil, except for Noah and co, what about all the animals? Did they have moral sense and thus commit evil and deserve to die?) Re Tolkienian deluges, it's not just Numenor of course. The breaking of Arda during the Valar-Melkor battle must have involved thousands of innocents perishing.
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04-18-2006, 08:07 AM | #64 | |
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04-18-2006, 08:19 AM | #65 | |
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04-18-2006, 08:41 AM | #66 | |
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04-18-2006, 08:42 AM | #67 | |||
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And yet you, me and others see Genesis 6 in the Akallabęth. Quote:
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04-18-2006, 04:32 PM | #68 | ||
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There seem to me to be some direct parallels between the Tuatha De Danaan and the Elves. The land of Tir Na Nog could be reflected in Valinor, although this could also be an underground kingdom according to Irish folklore. Apparently the Milesians are not the same as the Greek/Aegean people. These incomers to Ireland may have come from Spain. Although new archaeological evidence has shown that Ireland did not suffer from waves of invasion as some of the histories and myths state; in the main, Irish DNA has remained unchanged for millenia. This has also dispelled the myth that the Celts were invaders from Europe; it seems that Celtic culture spread, but not the people. Maybe a lot of the Irish tales of 'invaders' go incredibly far back, right to the times when farming cultures took over from hunter/gatherers, maybe even to when modern Man took over from Neanderthals? I'm often uncomfortable with tales that ancient Greeks 'founded' British cultures. Evidence does not prove this in any way, and I often wonder if it was an attempt by scholars to impose a Classical 'nobility' onto the history of the Britons and Celts. All the evidence to suggest that these islands had a rich culture anyway are there for all to see in the huge amounts of Megalithic remains to be found all over the islands. Quote:
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04-18-2006, 04:35 PM | #69 |
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I suppose the interesting thing about the Flood from a Tolkienian perspective is not the Biblical connection (which was most probably inspired by the Gilgamesh story), but Tolkien's own 'Atlantis' complex, which was also 'inherited' by one of his sons - Michael?
This is fascinating to me - the concept of an inherited 'dream'/fantasy. Tolkien uses the idea in his time-travel stories. It doesn't seem to have any personal reference - though I suppose a Jungian could put forward a theory along the lines of him being overwhelmed by the contents of the Collective, or Mythic, Unconscious. Its a powerful image, but not a Biblical one (Alatar has pointed out the significant differences). This makes me wonder about the Biblical inspiration behind Tolkien's Legendarium generally. Tolkien could have had a Great Flood in his work which matched the Biblical account, but he didn't - instead he went for the 'Pagan' version - 'Atlantis' destroyed by an angry Deity. Its another example of Tolkien being able to tie his Legendarium more closely into Biblical 'history' but choosing not to. Only Numenor is annihilated, not the whole of Middle-earth. Its as if he is deliberately avoiding Biblical parallels. If his theory that Myths are 'distored' versions of Biblical Truth why would he do this? Of course, the easy answer would be that he was creating a Myth himself & because all Myths are 'distortions' he felt his own Myth should be as 'distorted' as all the others. Yet we know that his approach was to try & discover 'what really happened'. So the problem arises - if he was attempting to tell the 'real' Truth of the ancient past, is writing about a devastating flood which changed the whole world, why doesn't his account echo the Biblical account more precisely? Unless we are to understand that there were really two (or possibly more) floods - but then how come the Bible only mentions one - & of a totally different sort ? What we seem to have is an account of a flood which rather 'confirms' the 'truth' of the various Pagan versions of the Myth - Plato's in particular. Odd.... |
04-18-2006, 06:13 PM | #70 | |
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Dash me if I can find all the sources to support this claim now. Memory tells me it is part and parcel of Milton's works but I've lent out my (personally annotated) copy of Paradise Lost. Possibly the idea arose from the story that Joseph of Arimathea brought the Holy Grail to England. (no, no, not to be confused with the Da Vinci Code.) Then there is Blake's quietly affirming hymn about Jerusalem being refounded on England's green and pleasant land. Anyhow, I guess I am simply pointing out that a group of people can create many different myths of origin, many of which bear little resemblance to the historical fact of the peoples who 'founded' the societies which tilled the land and hunted the animals and timbered the forests and left the barrows for others to discover.
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04-18-2006, 08:35 PM | #71 | |||||||||
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As to great floods on record or legend, there are reports that there are remains of civilization at the bottom of the Black Sea, suggesting that at one time it was an area that though below sea level, was dry .... until some kind of rather large disaster (which literally means 'undo-star') .... filled the basin with water. And then there is the legend of Broceliande, which it has been suggested was an actual forest that spanned from the edge of the Plain of Salisbury across the valley between, to modern day Brittany..... and is now under the waters of the English Channel. Both things suggest that the mean sea level may have at one time been much lower than it is in our own day. Pure speculation. Quote:
The story I read did have the Milesians coming from Spain. It was my awareness of the seaside city of Miletus that caused me to make the connection. For them to have come from Aegea by way of Spain seems not too great a reach. You're quite right, Lalwendë, that it was the same impulse in Virgil as it was for the later writers to find cultural roots in Classical Greece. .... all of it quite untrue. I too accept a God who is only good. However, I also understand that I am a mere human who can't comprehend the vastness of God's purposes, or I'd be God. I know that God is good and loves all of his creation; that's the basis for all my understanding. Whatever I don't understand, I admit it and try to learn based on what I already know. What I don't do is decide that God can't exist, or is cruel, or is evil, on the grounds that I can't understand how something evil fits into a good God's plan. That would be quite presumptuous of me. Quote:
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04-19-2006, 09:45 AM | #72 | |||
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Animals to me seem better treated in Arda. And if you'd like a harder question, in the same vein as above, well...Let's assume that God had just cause to wipe out everything that breathed air on the planet. He's God, He has a reason for killing off the animals as well as mankind, okay. Later, when the Hebrews are moving to the Promised Land, they are called to wipe out a peoples, men, women and children (Deuteronomy 2, 3 and especially 1 Samuel 15:1-3). The common apologetics that I hear is that these people were very evil, and like a cancerous tumor, must be excised completely to protect others from being infected. Presumably even the infants were so genetically evil that sparing even these babes was a danger, as they would grow up to pollute the community. That's a bit hard to accept. Worse, to me, is that God did not call down fire or whatever to terminate these people in a humane fashion. He had them butchered, which is bad, but worse is that He used other humans as His sword. Can you even imagine what it would be like to be in Saul's army, having just exterminated a city, men, women and children? What does that do to one's soul, and if that's to be to the greater glory of God... And with that, I'll end by pointing to Jonah 4:10, where suddenly God has pity on a city and its cattle. At least orcs are not humans, and maybe that's why I don't feel for them when they are obliterated. Is that why ME and Eru is more palatable? Quote:
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04-19-2006, 10:21 AM | #73 | ||
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Whilst surfing the Net this morning I came upon a reference to this very point of the Legendarium's parallels with Christianity. I don't have HoMe X, so I can't verify the context and idea. The relevant passage: Quote:
Perhaps those who have HoMe X can elaborate? The article I was reading: The Gift of Ilůvatar: Tolkien's Theological Vision
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04-19-2006, 10:15 PM | #74 | |
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As an aside, I've always found it intriguing that Grendell in the Beowulf story is supposed to be from the lineage of Cain. Not entirely to the point, but not completely unrelated. |
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04-20-2006, 04:07 AM | #75 |
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Elempi, if you don’t mind me saying so, you seem to be going through some fairly tortuous paths to explain some of these passages from the Bible. And, as you appear to accept, they are merely theories, designed no doubt to make the unpalatable more acceptable to those who regard the Bible as fact but are uneasy about the rather “fire and brimstone” aspects of the Old Testament God. (Which are, incidentally, quite out of keeping with his portrayal in the New Testament – did he, like many new fathers, undergo a personality change with the birth of his son? )
Not being a Biblical scholar, I was unaware of much of the detail of some of these stories, but was aware of course of the more “popular” tales, such as the Flood. I share the unease that others have expressed over this. But the story of Abraham and his son has always struck me as quite horrific. God asked him to sacrifice his son – and he was just about to do it! OK, so God had no intention of Abraham actually killing his son, but even to ask him to do so is unpardonable in my view. Especially since he was merely seeking to test Abraham’s faith. He was effectively saying: “I am not sure if you believe in me, so kill your son to prove that you do”. Doesn’t that seem rather vain? My own reaction would undoubtedly have been: “Well, if that’s the kind of God that you are, I’d rather not believe in you, thank you very much”. And so, off to Hell with me simply because I was unwilling to kill my son (surely a sin in God’s eyes anyway). That just doesn’t seem right. Now, as I understand it, the traditional Christian approach is that one either accepts the Bible as a whole, or one does not accept it at all. And this is one of the things that has always troubled me about Christanity as a faith (and all faiths which adopt a similar approach). You see, I accept that there are many great things that the Church can and does achieve, and that there are many useful messages that one can take from the teachings in the Bible, particularly the New Testament. But I do not accept the Bible as historical fact. I see it as a myth, probably based loosely in parts on historical events. And nor do I accept a God that is willing to relegate decent, law-abiding, moral people to Hell just because they don’t believe in Him or adhere to a particular way of worshipping him. Which all boils down to one question for me, and here I will try to drag this post back vaguely back on to topic. Why cannot Christians accept that not everything in the Bible is cast-iron fact, yet still maintain their faith in God? I am aware that there are some who have, in recent times, taken a more “flexible” approach to the Bible (regarding, for example, the stories of Creation and Eden are allegorical, rather than factual, in nature) but they, I believe, are in the minority. If one believes that The Lord of the Rings is an inherently “Christian” work and that it we can extract good and worthwhile messages from it, yet nevertheless can accept it as a work of fiction, why cannot one apply similar reasoning to the Bible? There is, of course, a major difference in that the Bible is expressly set in our world and incorporates elements which may be viewed as historical events. But the principle is surely the same. As I see it, they are both, in their different ways, myths. Ones from which we can perhaps learn much. But myths nevertheless. And accepting that fact surely does n ot in itself mean that one must relinquish one's belief in God.
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04-20-2006, 04:59 AM | #76 | |
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
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Couldn't resist butting in...
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To drag this on a little more, Christians who are foolish enough (from the world's point of view) to have faith in God find themselves seeing the reality of the Bible in their own lives. That's as far as I can go - it is rather difficult to explain to someone who does not believe. That's like describing the color purple to a blind person. Sorry if I come off too harsh, that's not my intention. Last edited by Lhunardawen; 04-20-2006 at 05:10 AM. |
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04-20-2006, 05:41 AM | #77 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
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Though you may simply be stating what others have said, I agree that it's a bit convoluted and makes God seem less omnipotent as He must rely on human agents to execute peoples so that His plan will succeed. And what of the livestock? Are these too somehow infected with fallen angels? And just how does one destroy spiritual beings by breaking the material bodies? Wouldn't it have been loverly if only the physical body of Satan could have been so broken so that he could not thwart so many godly plans? Can't help but noting that we again have a peoples labeled as 'subhuman' (which is interesting as they purportedly are superhuman) so that their extermination can be justified. Orcs. Eru has it otherwise, stating that despite everyone's best efforts Its will will be done. On the other hand, Maia can mate with elves who can mate with humans...
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Last edited by alatar; 04-20-2006 at 05:50 AM. |
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04-20-2006, 06:17 AM | #78 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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04-20-2006, 07:51 AM | #79 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
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But my main (on-topic) point was that, if one can perceive God's message in a story like LotR, which is clearly a fictional account, why can one not accept that God's principal message may successfully be conveyed in an account which, while historically relevant, is nevetheless not strictly literal? Quote:
I think it was you, Mith, who brought up the distress caused to Tolkien's wife by his insistance that she convert to his faith. Have I got that right? If so, I presume that his insistance was grounded in a similar approach.
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04-20-2006, 08:29 AM | #80 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
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It's a subject of reconciliation of our past, a validation - perhaps even a justification, yet still within the realm of the canon of Catholisism, and Christianity. One can debate the flood, literal interpretation, and etc, I think that the real gem is the ability of the author to fold in our ancestor's pre-Christ reality in to the historical context that the dimension Christianity brings to our history. The inhabitants of Europe that lived and struggled and died all those many years before Christ had a place in the Plan (if one subcribes to the idea), or a movement in the Song. Or, the concepts of forgiveness and salvation for an entire culture and people who had not yet heard the word of Christ. That subject very few people are compelled to approach. Last edited by drigel; 04-21-2006 at 07:05 AM. Reason: pimf |
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