Gillete, The Best Cirdan Can Get! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

latando angaina · 05-28-2002, 12:12 PM

well, I have a notion all the elves in ME are beardless, yet Cirdan the Shipwright is described as follows:

Quote:

Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said: ‘All is now ready.’

Very tall is allright for an elf, but old and bearded?

any opinions?

Luineglin · 05-28-2002, 01:39 PM

perhaps it is to make him seem old and wise like he was. (he was the 2nd best elf in my opinion.

Orald · 05-28-2002, 01:44 PM

And where does it state that elves are always beardless? Cirdan wasn't the only elf to have a beard, Beleg did and so did Feanor's father-in-law.

There are a few threads around, not too old either, this is onehere.

Elrian · 05-28-2002, 06:07 PM

Quote:

. There are three levels and Cirdan is probably in the third one since he has been alive so long.

Durelen, What were the three levels?

Lindolirian · 05-28-2002, 08:03 PM

I know you'll all probably laugh at me, but the very first time i read the books, I imagined Legolas having a beard..hahahaha

Orald · 05-28-2002, 09:10 PM

3 life cycles of the elves. Not remembering where I read it, if I read it at all. But I think it reasonable to assume the first is childhood, lasting about 50 years from birth. Then the second cycle takes over where the elf is mature and it seems to last indefinately. The third is the one Cirdan.

Heen-1 · 05-31-2002, 09:02 PM

um no. when elves become extremely old they grow beards, i.e. elrond and cirdan.

cirdan i beleive was there when the elves were first come to ME in Cuivienen.

Raefindel · 06-01-2002, 09:53 AM

Well, thank You, latando angaina , and Durelen.I guess you learn something everyday .Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Elves didn't have beards because the were unable to grow them, not because they prefered not to have them.

And, Durelen if you are able to come up with the 3rd Elven life stage I would be interested in learning about that too.

Thanks

Tarthang · 06-01-2002, 11:22 AM

Hey, galadriel was an old elf also, much older than Elrond who was born near the end of the first age. Does this mean she had a beard and JRRT forgot to mention it? Or seeing as how she's female, did she have varicose veins and wear push-up bra? Sorry, just couldn't resist doing this after reading that ld elves have beards.

Orald · 06-01-2002, 12:08 PM

Elrond didn't have a beard, Tarthang. I don't know what Heen is talking about. Cirdan was probably not one of the first elves to awaken at Cuivienen.

The funny thing is, that is pretty much it on the Three Cycles of life. I am sure there is more on it, probably not published as of yet, because the little snipit in question is from Vinyar Tengwar 41. And as long as CT keeps handing over material to them, new stuff will keep popping up.

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Durelen ]

Raefindel · 06-01-2002, 03:33 PM

Thank You Durelen

Heen-1 · 06-01-2002, 03:41 PM

sorry, *** was i thinking about Elrond and a beard?lol

and im pretty sure that Cirdan was part of the people who stayed in middle earth when the other elves went west because they were looking for Elwe in the woods or something.

Daniel Telcontar · 06-02-2002, 04:22 AM

Cirdan was one of the first elves, since Osse convinced him and some of the Teleri to stay behind and not go to the West as the Valar asked. So Falas is actually one of the oldest kingdoms in ME.

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-09-2003, 03:20 AM

Actually, most of the original elves were dead, since they couldn't control their fea and all of the original 144 had wives,and children, yet their is no mention of Cirdan's psouse or descendants. Maybe losing the ring of power led to Cirdan's beard, and where does it say that Beleg had a beard?

the real findorfin · 01-09-2003, 03:29 AM

Why couldn't the the first 144 control their Fea? Please ellaborate!

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-09-2003, 03:34 AM

Well, I haven't got the books with me, since I am posting from school, but J.R.R says something about them not beign used to it, hence the lake of first generation Elves on the great journey. Ingwe had a sister, so he couldn't be a first generation, I would say he is second generation, Elwe had quite a few realtives, such as Cirdan and two brothers, Olwe and Elmo, so I would say he is 3rd to 4th generation and he olny ever married Melian and Finwe's first wife was born in Valinor. Does anyone know of the fates of Imin, Tatya and co?

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-09-2003, 03:37 AM

cirdan was probably of a mature enough age to be convinced by Osse, or the Valar as one essay puts it to stay. I think that the Elves reached Beleriand 390 odd years after their awakening?

Bruce MacCulloch · 01-09-2003, 03:08 PM

In a painting by Professor Tolkien, Beleg is shown with a beard.

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-10-2003, 07:26 AM

I thought that it appeared that he had a beard and that there was no confimation?

HerenIstarion · 09-15-2004, 01:51 PM

I'm being mordant, but, do 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar' or any similar piece indicate balding process among the elves? With regards to agent Elrond of the movie, you know. The question is half sarcastic only, though, I'm not only being mordant, but being curios too - anyone remembering anything of the kind?

Boromir88 · 09-15-2004, 02:12 PM

Heen:

Quote:

and im pretty sure that Cirdan was part of the people who stayed in middle earth when the other elves went west because they were looking for Elwe in the woods or something.

It was said Cirdan would leave when the rest of the elves left. He would be the last to elf to leave Middle-Earth, and we do know that he did leave eventually.

Encaitare · 09-15-2004, 02:33 PM

Quote:

With regards to agent Elrond of the movie, you know.

Oh, poor Hugo Weaving! He's never going to live the unusual combination of roles down. When I think of him though, he's often done up in drag as he was in the Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.

But on topic, I don't recall anything about balding elves anywhere. Many of them are described by their beautiful hair, so I can't see elves being bald at all. If they don't really show any other signs of aging (aside from the occasional beard) then it doesn't seem logical that they would start to lose their hair. I'm no expert, though, so maybe the answer is tucked away in a Letter or a volume of HoME which I haven't gotten to yet.

**The Saucepan Man** · 09-15-2004, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

... do 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar' or any similar piece indicate balding process among the elves?

Perhaps Feanor was after those locks of Galadriel's hair to patch up his toupe.

Mithalwen · 09-16-2004, 11:10 AM

Well it could be explained by his human ancestry.......... btw Hugo has always had a high hairline even when he was 23 and had masses of hair (cf Bodyline).....

05-28-2002, 01:39 PM	#2
Luineglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a terrible paradise Posts: 93	perhaps it is to make him seem old and wise like he was. (he was the 2nd best elf in my opinion. __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all that wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. Bilbo Baggins Describing Aragorn Son of Arathorn Heir of Elendil,Elessar-Elfstone of his people

05-28-2002, 08:03 PM	#5
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,126	I know you'll all probably laugh at me, but the very first time i read the books, I imagined Legolas having a beard..hahahaha __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

06-01-2002, 09:53 AM	#8
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,325	Well, thank You, latando angaina , and Durelen.I guess you learn something everyday .Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Elves didn't have beards because the were unable to grow them, not because they prefered not to have them. And, Durelen if you are able to come up with the 3rd Elven life stage I would be interested in learning about that too. Thanks __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

06-01-2002, 03:33 PM	#11
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,325	Thank You Durelen __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

06-02-2002, 04:22 AM	#13
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Cirdan was one of the first elves, since Osse convinced him and some of the Teleri to stay behind and not go to the West as the Valar asked. So Falas is actually one of the oldest kingdoms in ME. __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

05-28-2002, 01:44 PM	#3
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	And where does it state that elves are always beardless? Cirdan wasn't the only elf to have a beard, Beleg did and so did Feanor's father-in-law. There are a few threads around, not too old either, this is onehere.

05-28-2002, 09:10 PM	#6
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	3 life cycles of the elves. Not remembering where I read it, if I read it at all. But I think it reasonable to assume the first is childhood, lasting about 50 years from birth. Then the second cycle takes over where the elf is mature and it seems to last indefinately. The third is the one Cirdan.

05-31-2002, 09:02 PM	#7
Heen-1 Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 27	um no. when elves become extremely old they grow beards, i.e. elrond and cirdan. cirdan i beleive was there when the elves were first come to ME in Cuivienen.

06-01-2002, 11:22 AM	#9
Tarthang Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paths of the Dead Posts: 108	Hey, galadriel was an old elf also, much older than Elrond who was born near the end of the first age. Does this mean she had a beard and JRRT forgot to mention it? Or seeing as how she's female, did she have varicose veins and wear push-up bra? Sorry, just couldn't resist doing this after reading that ld elves have beards.

06-01-2002, 12:08 PM	#10
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Elrond didn't have a beard, Tarthang. I don't know what Heen is talking about. Cirdan was probably not one of the first elves to awaken at Cuivienen. The funny thing is, that is pretty much it on the Three Cycles of life. I am sure there is more on it, probably not published as of yet, because the little snipit in question is from Vinyar Tengwar 41. And as long as CT keeps handing over material to them, new stuff will keep popping up. [ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Durelen ]

06-01-2002, 03:41 PM	#12
Heen-1 Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 27	sorry, *** was i thinking about Elrond and a beard?lol and im pretty sure that Cirdan was part of the people who stayed in middle earth when the other elves went west because they were looking for Elwe in the woods or something.

01-09-2003, 03:20 AM	#14
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Actually, most of the original elves were dead, since they couldn't control their fea and all of the original 144 had wives,and children, yet their is no mention of Cirdan's psouse or descendants. Maybe losing the ring of power led to Cirdan's beard, and where does it say that Beleg had a beard? __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-09-2003, 03:29 AM	#15
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	Why couldn't the the first 144 control their Fea? Please ellaborate! __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

01-09-2003, 03:34 AM	#16
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Well, I haven't got the books with me, since I am posting from school, but J.R.R says something about them not beign used to it, hence the lake of first generation Elves on the great journey. Ingwe had a sister, so he couldn't be a first generation, I would say he is second generation, Elwe had quite a few realtives, such as Cirdan and two brothers, Olwe and Elmo, so I would say he is 3rd to 4th generation and he olny ever married Melian and Finwe's first wife was born in Valinor. Does anyone know of the fates of Imin, Tatya and co? __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-09-2003, 03:37 AM	#17
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	cirdan was probably of a mature enough age to be convinced by Osse, or the Valar as one essay puts it to stay. I think that the Elves reached Beleriand 390 odd years after their awakening? __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-09-2003, 03:08 PM	#18
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 652	In a painting by Professor Tolkien, Beleg is shown with a beard. __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

01-10-2003, 07:26 AM	#19
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I thought that it appeared that he had a beard and that there was no confimation? __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

09-15-2004, 01:51 PM	#20
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,301	it seems this is the most fitting place for the question I'm being mordant, but, do 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar' or any similar piece indicate balding process among the elves? With regards to agent Elrond of the movie, you know. The question is half sarcastic only, though, I'm not only being mordant, but being curios too - anyone remembering anything of the kind? __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

09-16-2004, 11:10 AM	#24
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,916	Well it could be explained by his human ancestry.......... btw Hugo has always had a high hairline even when he was 23 and had masses of hair (cf Bodyline)..... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace