Inspiration for Gandalf - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

07-12-2004, 04:38 PM

I was recently involved in a pub quiz and the question was asked "Which real person was the inspiration behind / for Gandalf?" The allegedly correct answer (or the one the MC had) was CS Lewis. This did not seem correct to me, but some (brief) searching on the matter has yielded nothing. Can anyone help?

One of the Nine · 07-12-2004, 05:08 PM

I don't know, I never knew that Gandalf was based on a person, let alone CS Lewis. I know that Tolkien knew him, but further than that, your guess is as good as mine.

symestreem · 07-12-2004, 05:19 PM

Welcome to the Downs, shia'tan!
A Google search on the topic yielded this page, which lists Tolkien's aunt as the inspiration for Gandalf. However, it also mentions a character from Norse mythology named Gandalfr, and Merlin of King Arthur legend.
I am inclined to doubt the last, however, because Tolkien pointed out that the tales of King Arthur were French, not British, and for him to use a character from it as inspiration seems... odd.

Amanaduial the archer · 07-12-2004, 06:05 PM

There are some very definite aspects of Merlin in Gandalph - as there are aspects of Gandalph in modern day 'wise wizard' characters in fiction, such as Dumbeldore in Harry Potter. It's a sort of...recycling thing.

No, but it is just one of those ways in which fiction repeats itself, but not in a bad way, but in the way writers can reflect back on the imaginations of other before them and entwine their own ideas into those of people before.

Tolkien and CS Lewis were good friends - I think I heard someone say before that the first edition of the Hobbit. To say that a character of Gandalph's qualities - loyalty, bravery, humour and, of course, wisdom - was derived from CS Lewis would be a great compliment and a way of expressing his admiration for his fellow writer.

Symestreem, why do you say it is odd that he used Merlin because the tales of King Arthur were French?

ninlaith · 07-13-2004, 12:13 AM

Some inspiration for Gandalf came from Sir Tolkiens friend C.S Lewis. Although C.S Lewis also inspired Tolkien to write the character Treebeard which I think is a more fitting analysis. Tolkien always spoke about how he would be walking down the halls at Oxford and would hear this booming echoing voice rumbling down the hall which was C.S Lewis teaching his lessons. But the true inspiration for Gandalf came from the Kalevala, an old and insanely long sort of chant which speaks of an old shaman who would perform good deeds for the people of their tribe and disappear. Sort of explains alot about Gandalf in my thinking. The Kalevala would take nearly two to four days for one of the chosen tribesmen to chant.

davem · 07-13-2004, 01:52 AM

I thought Lewis was the inspiration for Treebeard - at least for his way of speaking.

Tolkien did say that the inspiration for Gandalf came from a painting by Josef Madlener - der Berggeist. Indeed, he kept the postcard he picked up of it in an envelope with 'Origin of Gandalf' written on it. The painting & some background info is here:

http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/..._7insert.shtml

Rimbaud · 07-13-2004, 04:31 AM

Like most characters, Gandalf is an amalgamation, taken from a myriad sources. Particularly with Tolkien, I would be hesitant before stating a 'primary' source for any of his characters (although the arguments linking his mother with his often less than three-dimensional female characters is always a semi-amusing debate...)

The Kalevala, yes, Lewis, yes, but many many other sources (eg The Poetic Edda) and original ideas also. Gandalf was once the name of the Chief Dwarf; I think I prefer it the way it worked out...

ninlaith · 07-13-2004, 06:56 AM

I see where everyone is coming from and I'm not saying that the Kalevala and C.S Lewis are the only inspirations for Gandalf. All I was trying to say was that they were influential inspirations for the fact that he loved both of them dearly.

Findegil · 07-13-2004, 08:08 AM

To add some detail: The first addition of The annotated Hobbit has a picture of Madlener himself in old age. And he is looks much like his own "Berggeist". (But it is not a self-portrait, since Madlener was only about 40 years when he draw the picture.)

Respectfully
Findegil

nynnd1 · 07-13-2004, 08:29 AM

I am pretty sure that in the special edition of the Fellowship there is mention that C.S Lewis is the basis for Gandalf, but I agree that saying that Merlin is the basis of Gandalf is not true, it is more of a recycling situation, they are both wizards. That is it.

If it is said that Lewis was the basis because he was Tolkien's close friend, who did Tolkien write himself as?

07-13-2004, 03:49 PM

"I am pretty sure that in the special edition of the Fellowship there is mention that C.S Lewis is the basis for Gandalf...."

May I enquire which "special edition" this is?

Bombadil · 07-13-2004, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Tolkien always spoke about how he would be walking down the halls at Oxford and would hear this booming echoing voice rumbling down the hall which was C.S Lewis teaching his lessons.

I'm pretty sure that is also in the EE somewhere. I think Peter Jackson is the one telling that little anecdote...which is ironic because I don't recall his treebeard saying any loud "Hroom"s which I thoguht was one of the characteristics he used from Lewis.

nynnd1 · 07-20-2004, 03:45 AM

Sorry, i meant the DVD of the Fellowship the, extended special edition.

I know that they had given Treebeard some of Tom Bombadil's lines, to try and satisfy the Bombadil fans. But they only showed up in the EE, which annoyed me as a Tom fan and a Lord of The Ring's book fan.

Not only have they left out Tom, but they have slightly changed the character of Treebeard by giving him Tom's lines.

haltred · 07-25-2004, 04:43 PM

[B]CS Lewis interesting. I would think that Gandalf came from JRRT's knowledge of the Merlin/ Arthur stories. Lewis was not a fan of the LOTR but he was one of the first people to hear it at the pub that he and Tolkien etc frequented.

Tuor of Gondolin · 07-25-2004, 05:50 PM

I believe Lewis did like LOTR overall, but had some criticisms (especially not being a big hobbit fan or of the poems). In addition to general support he wrote one of the blurbs for LOTR and continually prodded Tolkien to finish the book. But I do think another of the Inklings disliked hearing stories read at their gatherings (Hugo Dyson?).

07-12-2004, 04:38 PM	#1
shia'tan Guest Posts: n/a	Inspiration for Gandalf I was recently involved in a pub quiz and the question was asked "Which real person was the inspiration behind / for Gandalf?" The allegedly correct answer (or the one the MC had) was CS Lewis. This did not seem correct to me, but some (brief) searching on the matter has yielded nothing. Can anyone help?
	$Received Infraction$

07-12-2004, 05:08 PM	#2
One of the Nine Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In my mind. What? Why are you looking at me like that? Posts: 84	I don't know, I never knew that Gandalf was based on a person, let alone CS Lewis. I know that Tolkien knew him, but further than that, your guess is as good as mine. __________________ I have a very short attention span, and it sometimes affects me when I'm, ooo a squirrel....

07-12-2004, 06:05 PM	#4
Amanaduial the archer Shadow of Starlight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dancing among the ledgerlines... Posts: 2,397	There are some very definite aspects of Merlin in Gandalph - as there are aspects of Gandalph in modern day 'wise wizard' characters in fiction, such as Dumbeldore in Harry Potter. It's a sort of...recycling thing. No, but it is just one of those ways in which fiction repeats itself, but not in a bad way, but in the way writers can reflect back on the imaginations of other before them and entwine their own ideas into those of people before. Tolkien and CS Lewis were good friends - I think I heard someone say before that the first edition of the Hobbit. To say that a character of Gandalph's qualities - loyalty, bravery, humour and, of course, wisdom - was derived from CS Lewis would be a great compliment and a way of expressing his admiration for his fellow writer. Symestreem, why do you say it is odd that he used Merlin because the tales of King Arthur were French? __________________ I am what I was, a harmless little devil

07-13-2004, 01:52 AM	#6
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,256	I thought Lewis was the inspiration for Treebeard - at least for his way of speaking. Tolkien did say that the inspiration for Gandalf came from a painting by Josef Madlener - der Berggeist. Indeed, he kept the postcard he picked up of it in an envelope with 'Origin of Gandalf' written on it. The painting & some background info is here: http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/..._7insert.shtml __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

07-13-2004, 04:31 AM	#7
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,096	Like most characters, Gandalf is an amalgamation, taken from a myriad sources. Particularly with Tolkien, I would be hesitant before stating a 'primary' source for any of his characters (although the arguments linking his mother with his often less than three-dimensional female characters is always a semi-amusing debate...) The Kalevala, yes, Lewis, yes, but many many other sources (eg The Poetic Edda) and original ideas also. Gandalf was once the name of the Chief Dwarf; I think I prefer it the way it worked out... __________________ And all the rest is literature Last edited by Rimbaud; 07-13-2004 at 04:36 AM.

07-12-2004, 05:19 PM	#3
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 729	Welcome to the Downs, shia'tan! A Google search on the topic yielded this page, which lists Tolkien's aunt as the inspiration for Gandalf. However, it also mentions a character from Norse mythology named Gandalfr, and Merlin of King Arthur legend. I am inclined to doubt the last, however, because Tolkien pointed out that the tales of King Arthur were French, not British, and for him to use a character from it as inspiration seems... odd.

07-13-2004, 12:13 AM	#5
ninlaith Wight Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: in my hobbit hole Posts: 204	Some inspiration for Gandalf came from Sir Tolkiens friend C.S Lewis. Although C.S Lewis also inspired Tolkien to write the character Treebeard which I think is a more fitting analysis. Tolkien always spoke about how he would be walking down the halls at Oxford and would hear this booming echoing voice rumbling down the hall which was C.S Lewis teaching his lessons. But the true inspiration for Gandalf came from the Kalevala, an old and insanely long sort of chant which speaks of an old shaman who would perform good deeds for the people of their tribe and disappear. Sort of explains alot about Gandalf in my thinking. The Kalevala would take nearly two to four days for one of the chosen tribesmen to chant.

07-13-2004, 06:56 AM	#8
ninlaith Wight Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: in my hobbit hole Posts: 204	I see where everyone is coming from and I'm not saying that the Kalevala and C.S Lewis are the only inspirations for Gandalf. All I was trying to say was that they were influential inspirations for the fact that he loved both of them dearly.

07-13-2004, 08:08 AM	#9
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	To add some detail: The first addition of The annotated Hobbit has a picture of Madlener himself in old age. And he is looks much like his own "Berggeist". (But it is not a self-portrait, since Madlener was only about 40 years when he draw the picture.) Respectfully Findegil

07-13-2004, 08:29 AM	#10
nynnd1 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: england Posts: 64	I am pretty sure that in the special edition of the Fellowship there is mention that C.S Lewis is the basis for Gandalf, but I agree that saying that Merlin is the basis of Gandalf is not true, it is more of a recycling situation, they are both wizards. That is it. If it is said that Lewis was the basis because he was Tolkien's close friend, who did Tolkien write himself as? __________________ I use my sword, narcatic, to uphold peace. Never for vengance.

07-13-2004, 03:49 PM	#11
shia'tan Guest Posts: n/a	"I am pretty sure that in the special edition of the Fellowship there is mention that C.S Lewis is the basis for Gandalf...." May I enquire which "special edition" this is?

07-20-2004, 03:45 AM	#13
nynnd1 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: england Posts: 64	Sorry, i meant the DVD of the Fellowship the, extended special edition. I know that they had given Treebeard some of Tom Bombadil's lines, to try and satisfy the Bombadil fans. But they only showed up in the EE, which annoyed me as a Tom fan and a Lord of The Ring's book fan. Not only have they left out Tom, but they have slightly changed the character of Treebeard by giving him Tom's lines. __________________ I use my sword, narcatic, to uphold peace. Never for vengance.

07-25-2004, 04:43 PM	#14
haltred Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Victoria BC Canada Posts: 20	[B]CS Lewis interesting. I would think that Gandalf came from JRRT's knowledge of the Merlin/ Arthur stories. Lewis was not a fan of the LOTR but he was one of the first people to hear it at the pub that he and Tolkien etc frequented. __________________ In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit

07-25-2004, 05:50 PM	#15
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	I believe Lewis did like LOTR overall, but had some criticisms (especially not being a big hobbit fan or of the poems). In addition to general support he wrote one of the blurbs for LOTR and continually prodded Tolkien to finish the book. But I do think another of the Inklings disliked hearing stories read at their gatherings (Hugo Dyson?).