Should Faramir have been in the Fellowship? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

OddEvenstar · 05-02-2003, 05:15 PM

Boromir was chosen to join the Fellowship of the Ring. Before he perished by the Falls of Rauros, he attempted to steal the Ring from Frodo in a sudden fury. Yet he redeemed himself by battling bravely to protect the hobbits Merry and Pippin.

Faramir appears to be wiser than his brother, but Denethor never really seemed to love him as the next in line until the very end...when it was too late. He has ample chance to take the Ring for his own and for Gondor's, but he never once shows any desire for It.

I personally believe that Faramir would have been more deserving, though never in his father's favor. Had he gone with the Company, he could have been a great aid to Aragorn, if not able to protect the Ring-Bearer to the end.

What do you think? Would Faramir have been a more worthy guide in the Fellowship? Or did fate play out with Boromir as it should have?

Firondoiel · 05-02-2003, 06:31 PM

I don't think that Faramir should have replaced Boromir. For it was because of Boromir attempting to take the Ring that Frodo gathered up enough courage to travel to Mordor. Also if Faramir had been in the fellowship, it would have most likely been Boromir that found Frodo and Sam in Ithilien. And I think we can say goodbye to the quest right there. So in answer to your question, I believe that Tolkien was perfectly right to have Boromir and not Faramir in the fellowship.

Morwen Tindomerel · 05-02-2003, 06:32 PM

Boromir's brief surrender to temptation was in fact providential as it frightened the Ringbearer into flight *just* in time for him to escape Saruman's Orcs. And Boromir's quick repentence, for which he gets much to little credit, saved Frodo from pursuit on his part.

Boromir was *meant* to be part of the Fellowship, his weakness and his strength saved the quest. There is no guarentee that Faramir, worthy as he is, could have played the same vital role. *Had* he been part of the Fellowship it is very likely they would have been surrounded in their camp, the Men, Elf and Dwarf killed and the Hobbits, including the Ringbearer, taken to Saruman.

At best they would have escaped over the river together meaning no Aragorn to rally Rohan and lead the Dead to save Minas Tirith and no Merry and Pippin to rouse the Ents. The quest might still have succeeded but with no King or anything left for him to return to.

Nyneve · 05-02-2003, 06:49 PM

He couldn't have replaced Boromir. If Faramir had joined, Boromir would not have been slain and Denethor might not have committed suicide. Boromir, because he was his favorite son, may have been able to talk his father out of it. Then it would have been a lot harder for Aragorn to take the throne. Boromir is also my favorite character and if JRRT put him in the fellowship, it was for a good reason. Note how all my favorite characters die.

The Only Real Estel · 05-02-2003, 06:56 PM

If Farimir had replaced Borimir, it's likely that Frodo would've traveled with a few companions into Mordor, and it's also unlikely that they'd ever have been in Ithielin. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

OddEvenstar · 05-02-2003, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Note how all my favorite characters die.

Hilarious, Nyneve. (Not in a rude way.)

P.S. Notice I am easily amused.

Leona · 05-02-2003, 09:54 PM

I think the entire story would have changed if Borimir was not in the Fellowship. If not for him, Frodo would never have left. Without Borimir the fellowship wouldn't have scattered at that exact moment, making Frodo's ecape imposible.
If Faramir had taken Borimir's place, would Faramir have been driven the same way? Or would he have kept his temper and not scared Frodo?
I think, too much of the story direction lies in Borimir, and not Faramir traveling with Frodo.

Lyra Greenleaf · 05-03-2003, 04:55 AM

Much as it pains me to draw attention to the fact that LOTR is a story existing in Professor Tolkien's head, if Faramir had gone instead of Boromir he could have twisted the story to fit... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, faramir would have changed the story so much from the beginning that they probably wouldn't have even been in the same position by Rauros. Perhaps he would have put pressure on Aragorn to go straight to Mount Doom and they would have been walking down the side of the river instead of in boats? Or perhaps without Boromir's insistence they take wood up Caradhras they'd all be dead and nothing to do about it?

Anyway, I think that it is important to remember that it would have changed the whole story, not just the outcome of specific decisions.

Nerindel · 05-03-2003, 05:52 AM

As much as I love the character Faramir and feel he should have had more of an important role in the final battle. I fear that if Faramir went with the fellowship he would have suffered the same fate as Boromir after all the first book makes it clear that the hearts of men were weak (even Aragorn feared the ring would corrupt him). we are told in the Silmarillion that the ring had little or no effect on the dwarves and in both the hobbit and Lotrs we see that the hobbits are resilant to the effects of the ring so that leaves Faramir, Aragorn, Gandalf and Legolas for the ring to corrupt. And we know that Aragorn and Gandalf are pivotal figures so they could not be corrupted, legolas was an elf and knew the dangers of the ring so that leaves only Faramir so with long exposure to the ring he too would fall. Fate is a bummer! I know [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anything but Arwen · 05-03-2003, 06:47 AM

It does actually say in the book (I cant remember where, it could be the appendicies) that Denethor wanted Faramir to go, because he was concerned Boromir may be lost (a bit of foresight there...) but Boromir insisted on going, despite only having the dream about the poem once, whereas Faramir had it several times...

Morwen Tindomerel · 05-03-2003, 09:37 AM

I would hotly debate that Men are uniquely vulnerable to the Ring. Dispite the sad fate of the Nine those Men directly exposed to the temptation of the One actually acquit themselves rather well.

Isildur takes the Ring, dispite being advised against it, but realizes his mistake and decides to give it up to 'The Wise', (see Disaster of the Gladden Fields, UT) which would probably have been a mistake BTW.

Boromir gives in to temptation but almost immediately repents, breaking its hold on his will.

Faramir and Aragorn of course refuse it altogether, and without the light show Galadriel finds necessary.

Bilbo, Frodo and Sam do indeed resist the Ring's power but against them there is Smeagol who falls to it at once, killing his only friend to possess it. It is thus a mistake to think Hobbits have any kind of blanket resistance as a species.

It is also a mistake to think that Elves, as a species, have some kind of immunity to evil. Feanor and his sons, Eol and Maeglin, and for that matter Galadriel give the lie to that. Legolas, as an individual, may be resistant but it will have to do with who he is, Legolas Greenleaf, more than what he is, an Elf.

Dwarves were specifically designed by their creator to be resistant to exterior influences but they are not immune to the corruptive power of the Ring as the fates of the holders of the Seven show. Those Rings fired their Dwarf holders' natural faults of greed and covetousness leading them to disaster.

As for the Angelic Maiar they may be the most vulnerable of all! Certainly Gandalf fears the Ring's effect on him, and Saruman fell through mere desire for the Ring.

No species is 'immune' to the Ring. However certain individuals of all species, including Men, demonstrate the wisdom and the strength to resist it.

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 05-03-2003, 11:09 AM

Quote:

I would hotly debate that Men are uniquely vulnerable to the Ring. Dispite the sad fate of the Nine those Men directly exposed to the temptation of the One actually acquit themselves rather well.

I agree. I was dimayed the first time I saw the movie and noticed the 'Men are weak of will' theme that seems to be very prominent in the Aragorn storyline.

Lyra Greenleaf · 05-03-2003, 11:23 AM

It's a paradox, as the film emphasises that humans are weak then shows that both Galadriel and Gandalf are tempted by the ring. Casting aspersions on the whole human race- PJ has a lot to answer for!

Morwen Tindomerel · 05-03-2003, 07:11 PM

I wonder if maybe that's the real point, that Men are burdened with this totally unjustified reputation for weakness by people, (specifically Galadriel) who are not a wit better than we are.

I mean Galadriel and Elrond keep *saying* Men are weak but what we're seeing is Men are the only ones actually taking up arms against the Dark Lord. BTW I don't think Elrond really means it, he's just upset and discouraged and venting to Gandalf in a very Human fashion [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 05-03-2003, 08:31 PM

lol... amazing how everything ties in together. We've had lots of discussions, Morwen T. about how the elves like to put repsonsibility for screw-ups on anyone but themselves. One in particular would be the Fiction in ME thread started by davem. If I find the link later I'll edit it in for you.

Aah, here it is: The end of this thread

Sophia

[ May 03, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ]

05-02-2003, 05:15 PM	#1
OddEvenstar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 15	Should Faramir have been in the Fellowship? Boromir was chosen to join the Fellowship of the Ring. Before he perished by the Falls of Rauros, he attempted to steal the Ring from Frodo in a sudden fury. Yet he redeemed himself by battling bravely to protect the hobbits Merry and Pippin. Faramir appears to be wiser than his brother, but Denethor never really seemed to love him as the next in line until the very end...when it was too late. He has ample chance to take the Ring for his own and for Gondor's, but he never once shows any desire for It. I personally believe that Faramir would have been more deserving, though never in his father's favor. Had he gone with the Company, he could have been a great aid to Aragorn, if not able to protect the Ring-Bearer to the end. What do you think? Would Faramir have been a more worthy guide in the Fellowship? Or did fate play out with Boromir as it should have? __________________ The hands of a king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.

05-02-2003, 06:31 PM	#2
Firondoiel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 571	I don't think that Faramir should have replaced Boromir. For it was because of Boromir attempting to take the Ring that Frodo gathered up enough courage to travel to Mordor. Also if Faramir had been in the fellowship, it would have most likely been Boromir that found Frodo and Sam in Ithilien. And I think we can say goodbye to the quest right there. So in answer to your question, I believe that Tolkien was perfectly right to have Boromir and not Faramir in the fellowship. __________________ "Forth, and fear no darkness. Arise. Arise, Riders of Théoden. Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered. A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride for ruin and the world's ending!"

05-02-2003, 06:49 PM	#4
Nyneve Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The Place Between the Twighlight and the Dawn Posts: 29	He couldn't have replaced Boromir. If Faramir had joined, Boromir would not have been slain and Denethor might not have committed suicide. Boromir, because he was his favorite son, may have been able to talk his father out of it. Then it would have been a lot harder for Aragorn to take the throne. Boromir is also my favorite character and if JRRT put him in the fellowship, it was for a good reason. Note how all my favorite characters die. __________________ Yet do thy worst, old Time: despite thy wrong, My love shall in my verse ever live young.--W.S.

05-02-2003, 09:54 PM	#7
Leona Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2003 Location: Somewhere in Ithilen Posts: 28	I think the entire story would have changed if Borimir was not in the Fellowship. If not for him, Frodo would never have left. Without Borimir the fellowship wouldn't have scattered at that exact moment, making Frodo's ecape imposible. If Faramir had taken Borimir's place, would Faramir have been driven the same way? Or would he have kept his temper and not scared Frodo? I think, too much of the story direction lies in Borimir, and not Faramir traveling with Frodo. __________________ You don't really see me, just the cloak of shadows and lies I've drawn around me. -Arina

05-03-2003, 04:55 AM	#8
Lyra Greenleaf The Diaphanous Dryad Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path Posts: 1,152	Much as it pains me to draw attention to the fact that LOTR is a story existing in Professor Tolkien's head, if Faramir had gone instead of Boromir he could have twisted the story to fit... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Anyway, faramir would have changed the story so much from the beginning that they probably wouldn't have even been in the same position by Rauros. Perhaps he would have put pressure on Aragorn to go straight to Mount Doom and they would have been walking down the side of the river instead of in boats? Or perhaps without Boromir's insistence they take wood up Caradhras they'd all be dead and nothing to do about it? Anyway, I think that it is important to remember that it would have changed the whole story, not just the outcome of specific decisions. __________________ “Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you." the Forbidden Link

05-02-2003, 06:32 PM	#3
Morwen Tindomerel Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden Posts: 187	Boromir's brief surrender to temptation was in fact providential as it frightened the Ringbearer into flight just in time for him to escape Saruman's Orcs. And Boromir's quick repentence, for which he gets much to little credit, saved Frodo from pursuit on his part. Boromir was meant to be part of the Fellowship, his weakness and his strength saved the quest. There is no guarentee that Faramir, worthy as he is, could have played the same vital role. Had he been part of the Fellowship it is very likely they would have been surrounded in their camp, the Men, Elf and Dwarf killed and the Hobbits, including the Ringbearer, taken to Saruman. At best they would have escaped over the river together meaning no Aragorn to rally Rohan and lead the Dead to save Minas Tirith and no Merry and Pippin to rouse the Ents. The quest might still have succeeded but with no King or anything left for him to return to.

05-02-2003, 06:56 PM	#5
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	If Farimir had replaced Borimir, it's likely that Frodo would've traveled with a few companions into Mordor, and it's also unlikely that they'd ever have been in Ithielin. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

05-03-2003, 05:52 AM	#9
Nerindel Spirited Weaver of Fates Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In an endless sea of dreams! Posts: 827	As much as I love the character Faramir and feel he should have had more of an important role in the final battle. I fear that if Faramir went with the fellowship he would have suffered the same fate as Boromir after all the first book makes it clear that the hearts of men were weak (even Aragorn feared the ring would corrupt him). we are told in the Silmarillion that the ring had little or no effect on the dwarves and in both the hobbit and Lotrs we see that the hobbits are resilant to the effects of the ring so that leaves Faramir, Aragorn, Gandalf and Legolas for the ring to corrupt. And we know that Aragorn and Gandalf are pivotal figures so they could not be corrupted, legolas was an elf and knew the dangers of the ring so that leaves only Faramir so with long exposure to the ring he too would fall. Fate is a bummer! I know [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ "Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist, but you have ceased to live" ~ Mark Twain.

05-03-2003, 06:47 AM	#10
Anything but Arwen Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In my own little world. Its OK, they know me here. Posts: 230	It does actually say in the book (I cant remember where, it could be the appendicies) that Denethor wanted Faramir to go, because he was concerned Boromir may be lost (a bit of foresight there...) but Boromir insisted on going, despite only having the dream about the poem once, whereas Faramir had it several times... __________________ The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits! (Dontchya just love my avatar? I got a "Tickle Me Boromir" one too...

05-03-2003, 09:37 AM	#11
Morwen Tindomerel Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden Posts: 187	I would hotly debate that Men are uniquely vulnerable to the Ring. Dispite the sad fate of the Nine those Men directly exposed to the temptation of the One actually acquit themselves rather well. Isildur takes the Ring, dispite being advised against it, but realizes his mistake and decides to give it up to 'The Wise', (see Disaster of the Gladden Fields, UT) which would probably have been a mistake BTW. Boromir gives in to temptation but almost immediately repents, breaking its hold on his will. Faramir and Aragorn of course refuse it altogether, and without the light show Galadriel finds necessary. Bilbo, Frodo and Sam do indeed resist the Ring's power but against them there is Smeagol who falls to it at once, killing his only friend to possess it. It is thus a mistake to think Hobbits have any kind of blanket resistance as a species. It is also a mistake to think that Elves, as a species, have some kind of immunity to evil. Feanor and his sons, Eol and Maeglin, and for that matter Galadriel give the lie to that. Legolas, as an individual, may be resistant but it will have to do with who he is, Legolas Greenleaf, more than what he is, an Elf. Dwarves were specifically designed by their creator to be resistant to exterior influences but they are not immune to the corruptive power of the Ring as the fates of the holders of the Seven show. Those Rings fired their Dwarf holders' natural faults of greed and covetousness leading them to disaster. As for the Angelic Maiar they may be the most vulnerable of all! Certainly Gandalf fears the Ring's effect on him, and Saruman fell through mere desire for the Ring. No species is 'immune' to the Ring. However certain individuals of all species, including Men, demonstrate the wisdom and the strength to resist it.

05-03-2003, 11:23 AM	#13
Lyra Greenleaf The Diaphanous Dryad Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path Posts: 1,152	It's a paradox, as the film emphasises that humans are weak then shows that both Galadriel and Gandalf are tempted by the ring. Casting aspersions on the whole human race- PJ has a lot to answer for! __________________ “Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you." the Forbidden Link

05-03-2003, 07:11 PM	#14
Morwen Tindomerel Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden Posts: 187	I wonder if maybe that's the real point, that Men are burdened with this totally unjustified reputation for weakness by people, (specifically Galadriel) who are not a wit better than we are. I mean Galadriel and Elrond keep saying Men are weak but what we're seeing is Men are the only ones actually taking up arms against the Dark Lord. BTW I don't think Elrond really means it, he's just upset and discouraged and venting to Gandalf in a very Human fashion [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

05-03-2003, 08:31 PM	#15
Sophia the Thunder Mistress Scent of Simbelmynë Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aboard Highwind, bound for Traverse Town Posts: 1,780	lol... amazing how everything ties in together. We've had lots of discussions, Morwen T. about how the elves like to put repsonsibility for screw-ups on anyone but themselves. One in particular would be the Fiction in ME thread started by davem. If I find the link later I'll edit it in for you. Aah, here it is: The end of this thread Sophia [ May 03, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ] __________________ The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me!