Divine intervensions

[Grey Ship]

I have been thinking about this interference from the valas (and maias) in middle-earth. It did accour to me that they could do much more than they actually did.

An example is the five istaris. The valas must have sent them, to fight sauron. But they where not to "macht his power with power" (LOTR page 1059). Could this "forbiding" be the very reason for galdalfs decision to take care of the wounded ones rather than help fighting in the battle of the pelennor fields? Im really confused here. Does this information on page 1059 mean that the wizards where only to arrange fights, not fight them? But did they? How could then the white council attack dol guldur (when sauron fled to mordor)?

However: the valas wanted the people of middle-earth to forge their own fate (with a little "pushing"). Why? Why cant they just do everything that is in their power? There are meny things that indicates that they didnt.

Please accept my apologies for my bad spelling (maybe even folly). But, it would please be beyond reconning of men if someone with a little more wit than me could assist, though i seek wisdom, not lore.

[Luineglin]

when u think about it they might have been restricted by the One (Illuvitar) or possibly they wanted to do no more for fear of the consequences. about the istari they were meddling wizards of course maybe they arranged because that was all they could do.

[Elrian]

They were sent to aid the free peoples not fight their battles for them. they were forbidden from open confrontation with Sauron as the free peoples did not know they were sent by the Valar, that was a secret that few knew. the White Council was not made up of just the Istari, The Elven Lords (Elrond, Cirdan, Celeborn, Glorfindel, etc) also were in the Council which was formed by Galadriel, Only Saruman and Gandalf of the I stari were members, as far as I remember.

[Grey Ship]

The Istaris couldnt destroy Sauron otherwise than destroying the One Ring. However, what was the purpose in such a restriction if it didnt have any affect? They must have been so powerful that they united could keep Sauron on his knees. But they wherent allowed! What could be the Valas (or Illuvatars) purpose in this restriction, and in all the other affairs where they just did "a little"? Is it like... not to spoil the free peoples of middle earth?

[Maltagaerion]

I would imagine that the Valar wanted the free peoples to earn their freedom (with a little help) rather than just have freedom given to them.

[Grey Ship]

Yeah, they certainly would... but why?

[Luineglin]

when u earn something it means more and the lesson lives longer so maybe they wanted the races to learn a moral lesson or something high and righteous like that

[Grey Ship]

It was very unlikely that Frodo would manage the task laid upon him. The Valas must have recconed this lesson very important inedeed, since they risked loosing all the free people to Sauron. And why would such a lesson be so important, if Sauron where destroyed after all? Though Gandalf (i think) said to Frodo (i think) that other evils may have to come, im not satisfied with this "lesson" solution. But i guess thats the best answer...

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

it's like God and Christianity really-people ask why, if there's a God, does He allow all this suffering and not interfere...but He did; He sent His Son
*apologies for blatantly using the Bible* [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

also...if there was constant interference from the Valar, would they really be "free"?????????

[Grey Ship]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I agree. All religions says that we are not supposed to know all, there are some part of it (or the world, if you like) that only the Gods understands. I daresay Tolkien must have this in mind when he created this universe.

Well, they yould have been free from the Enemy. I suppose they would have been free just like the hobbits of the Shire - they could do what they wanted, but they where not independent.

Are the Valas gods in themself, or are they responsible to Eru?

[Luineglin]

we as mortals could never understand their reasons for in a way they have the picture of all that is to happen in front of them and know that if they interfere to much the consquences are unimangible and they are responsible to eru in a way. since they cannot interfere to much they sent the istari in the form of mortals so that they could better understand the plights of the mortals they were sent to help

[Elendur]

Also, if you know what happened to Middle Earth when the Valas came and used their powers to defeat Melkor, you see another reason. To defeat Sauron in open battle with no restrictions on their power, I think it would have "screwed up" Middle Earth.

Even though the change of the lands wouldn't have been so serious, maybe, it would still have killed alot of the people living in Middle Earth.

If you dont know about the Battle of the Valar and Melkor, I can tell you that the sea to the left of Ered Lhun used to be a land called Beleriand. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lush]

My opinion on the role of the Istari is thus: If they were given the power to simply blow Sauron to kingdome come, they would have been no better than he was. They would have in fact become a different version of Sauron. Evil cannot be bulldozed over by sheer power (the history of the human race being a prime example, and the actions of Saruman a relevant one), one needs to have faith, knowledge, and humility. The Istari, to some degree I believe, were sent to enlighten and to inspire.
(I am thoroughly uneducated in Tolkien lore as of yet, but this is what my instincts told me. Did I completely drop the ball on this one?)

[Elendur]

Evil cannot be bulldozed over by sheer power...

Sure it can. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Just like when the Valar went and bulldozed Melkor in the First Age.

But you are right in saying the evil is still there, in a way, even after the source is gone. But that would happen if Sauron was overtaken with sheer power or if it was done by making the people of the ME do it themselves. I think the way the Istari did it was best though.. it brought men together (as well as alot of other races in ME).

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Elendur ]

[Luineglin]

i am in agreement that the way it was done was better and that ME would have been screwed up if they had gone at it.

[Tirinor]

when the absolute neeed arose the first time drastic measures were taken up personally. I imagine that, if this plan failed and sauron ruled and destroyed all, drastic measures would be taken up again.

Constant and significant high power meddling would seem arrogant and condecending, which underminds the whole idea of free people history. sending Gandalf as a helper shows that they care. but not getting more involved than that also shows that they care, although in a different but perhaps more significant way.

[Elendil]

I agree with all of the above, but, like in religion, maybe it was that ppl had a free will, and so had the choice to believe that the Istari would help them and accept it, or not. Rather than whatever higher power from above saving them, without a will of their own.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I don't think that the defeat of Sauron alone was the mission of the Istari. I suspect that bringing the peoples of Middle Earth closer to one another seems a likely secondary objective, quite aside from the ethical points already considered in this discussion. Moreover, the all-out warfare on Melkor was a last resort, and only came at the request of Earendil on behalf of all the peoples, after a long struggle.

On a more realistic note, if the Istari simply destroyed Sauron themselves, there would have been nothing to tie this book in with The Hobbit (no need to find the ring, simply destroy its creator) and I don't think that the story would have been as personal or evocative. The way things were done just makes for a better story.

[Ghâshgûl]

I agree with Eowyns opinion: It's all about free will. The Valar's goal is not to defeat the evil, but to help the inhabitants of Middle Earth to defeat it. They did not want to cut their free will, they wanted that people take charge of their own destiny. That's why Gandalf and the other Istari were not allowed to use their full power, just to encourage people to fight against Sauron.

I even think that Gandalf exceeded a bit these orders - but he surely asked for the permission of his bosses when he dropped in in the Valars' HQ and came back as Gandalf the White.

Ghâshgûl

[Carannillion]

The reasons for the Valar not intervening themselves - or sending Maiar in power rather than in guise - are many, and quite a few have been covered here, but I think that perhaps the Valar didn't use power because it would have been to much; the thing about the people of ME having a free will, and doing it on their own. A baby growing up with parents who gives him challenges and advice, instead of wrapping him in thick blankets and keeping him totally isolated from the real world.
Suppose Ilúvatar also had a word in this: Sending fifteen Valar to defeat one Maia does seem a bit like shooting sparrows with ICBMs... Remember the wars between Melkor and the other Valar; 'throwing' mountains at each other and sinking continents might be just a little too much for small, 'naive' (in a positive way) hobbits and other folk not concerned with the affairs of the lords of ME.
The Valar had played their part in the good-evil battle of ME; the Undying Lands separated, Melkor expelled, stars, sun and moon created and so on. The greater race(s) had 'passed over the rim' (ok, this is Babylon 5, but it fits, somehow) and are waiting for the younger races to join them - and ultimately, of course, all will join with Ilúvatar together.