Dragons - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gaurcrist · 05-13-2009, 05:00 PM

I have always loved dragons, and hoped that they are real. If you have watched that one episode about if dragons are real, you will agree with me that they would be the strongest and most endurable creatures alive. I thank Tolkien for including them in his books.

***Mithadan*** · 05-14-2009, 06:44 AM

Welcome to the Barrow-Downs! I also found Tolkien's dragons to be compelling and interesting elements of his books. I cannot, however, say that I "like" Smaug or Glaurung. They are simply too evil. While not technically part of Tolkien's Middle Earth writings, Chrysophylax is far more likeable.

Dragons are a classic element of mythology dating back to ancient China and Japan. They are deeply ingrained in western (and British) mythology as well. Consider St. George's dragon. Tolkien also seemed fascinated by the beasts. He sometimes included them in his doodles. So it was not just easy for him to include them in his writings. I would guess he almost felt compelled to do so.

Rumil · 05-14-2009, 04:07 PM

You cannot have Fantasy withiout Dragons, it would be wrong.

If ever there was a Fantasy meme, they are it.

Plus they often get the best lines!

As a Taff, I'm sure that somewhere up the mountain there exists a proper Red Dragon, regardless of the likelihood, its just you can only see them when you are on the cusp between the everyday world and what you might call faerie,

Reality is so over-rated!

Bêthberry · 05-14-2009, 05:25 PM

Dragons are better than pirates.

I've never thought of Smaug as evil, not evil like the Witch King or Sauron or even the Balrog.

He's more like a compendium of character traits one doesn't want one's child's to develope. Someone arrogant, pompus, narcissistic, greedy, self-indulgent, self-satisfied, smug, vengeful, wrathful.

~Bethberry, the paperbag princess

Gaurcrist · 05-14-2009, 05:44 PM

I am sorry I can not relate to any of the names of the dragons or specific names like that of small characters in Tolkien's books, but I have read many of the ancient myths. It seems as if many myths include dragons or creatures similar to dragons, such as Norse myths, Greek myths, Chinese myths, and Japanese myths. That is most of what I know of dragons. The Norse dragon is the Nidhogg, and there are many dragons in Greek myths as well as creatures close to them such as snakes with talons, hydras, and creatures of the sort. I can not relate to Chinese or Japanese dragons.

Pitchwife · 05-15-2009, 05:27 PM

Gaurcrist, you may enjoy reading Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea books (if you haven't done so already). Some of the best dragons I've ever met in there - and not evil at all: just old, wise, alien and dangerous.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 05-15-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Welcome to the Barrow-Downs! I also found Tolkien's dragons to be compelling and interesting elements of his books. I cannot, however, say that I "like" Smaug or Glaurung. They are simply too evil. While not technically part of Tolkien's Middle Earth writings, Chrysophylax is far more likeable.

Dragons are a classic element of mythology dating back to ancient China and Japan. They are deeply ingrained in western (and British) mythology as well. Consider St. George's dragon. Tolkien also seemed fascinated by the beasts. He sometimes included them in his doodles. So it was not just easy for him to include them in his writings. I would guess he almost felt compelled to do so.

I agree with you about Glaurung, but Smaug never seemed like an extremely evil creature, he just seemed proud.

And it is funny you should mention St. George who is probably most used patron saint ever, both in eastern and western europe.
Anyways it got me thinking, what is the differense between western and british legend or mythology? (is it just one of these "we are british, we are different" things)

FeRaL sHaDoW · 05-16-2009, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I agree with you about Glaurung, but Smaug never seemed like an extremely evil creature, he just seemed proud.

Personally Smaug is one of my favourite characters. I believe Smaug was just a poor old misunderstood creature that was wrongly judged. I am sure deep down Smaug was a very caring and kind dragon; He was just tempted by all the treasures that those greedy dwarves were keeping to themselves.

Eönwë · 05-17-2009, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Anyways it got me thinking, what is the differense between western and british legend or mythology? (is it just one of these "we are british, we are different" things)

We just absorb all the good stuff from all the people who have invaded us- except the Norman's and their language. (Well, according to Tolkien at least!)

Anyway... where was I?

Oh, yes, Dragons.

Dragons are amazing. I think Rumil is right. Dragons are part of the essence of folklore, at least in England, that is. Also, they've always seemed to me as though they're much more intelligent than they're shown in the books. Remember, we mainly only hear of their downfalls- that's because there's someone left to tell the tale.

Gaurcrist · 05-19-2009, 06:23 PM

I agree with Eonwe in the statement that dragons are not generally given the respect or intuition they deserve. I have read a few books, the "Inheritance" books, and they are some of the best books I have read. They include very intelligent and wise dragons, as well as other creatures and beings such as elves, dwarves, and humans. I suggest them to everyone who likes Tolkien's books, for I believe that you will enjoy them.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 05-19-2009, 08:06 PM

You can't really judge dragons. They're just too mysterious.
But I agree that that dragons must be intelligent because even though dragons like Smaug, Glaurung, and Chrysofalax (It's nice that I can spell) took someone who was clever or very strong with great willpower to bring them down.
Bilbo wasn't necessarily very strong or wise, but he had a great eye. He was the one who essentially brought down Samug, with a little help from a man with a bow. Turin was strong physically, but he also seemed to have this willpower that could have raised the dead. Farmer Giles on the other hand was just plain clever, that he could outsmart the dragon, so he must have been really clever.
As far as other dragons go, I wouldn't know much. Although, since there were dragon myths all over the world, dragons HAD to exist SOMETIME.

Morthoron · 05-19-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaurcrist

I have always loved dragons, and hoped that they are real.

Dragons ARE real. I'll introduce you to my ex-wife sometime.

Lush · 05-21-2009, 04:59 AM

Quote:

I have always loved dragons, and hoped that they are real.

I don't - for I am crunchy and good with ketchup.

However, my dad did see something on a deep-diving assignment while serving in the Soviet armed forces, and I call this something the Great Wyrm. Or the Great Sea Wyrm. As it was in the sea and all. Off the coast of Crimea, to be precise.

You never know.

The sea always tends to conceal more than it reveals.

Nerwen · 05-21-2009, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lush

However, my dad did see something on a deep-diving assignment while serving in the Soviet armed forces, and I call this something the Great Wyrm. Or the Great Sea Wyrm. As it was in the sea and all. Off the coast of Crimea, to be precise.

...Details?

Lush · 05-21-2009, 12:53 PM

My dad was in the navy and he and a buddy of his were training on the sea at night - the object of the exercise was to dive down deep to a certain object and retrieve... something. I think it might have been a small beacon, or something along the same lines - an object that proved they had completed the exercise.

Well, while they were down there, they had quite a fright. They both saw something enormous and snake-like, but also odd in the sense that at least one of its ends looked tapered. There are other details as well, I just don't want to repeat them here in case I'm getting them wrong (it's been a while since I heard the story - understandably, my dad doesn't talk about it too much).

They had to come up pretty quickly and I think they're actually lucky that they're alive today (since it can be pretty dangerous if you panic under water). And they sort of bobbed on the surface screaming "DID YOU SEE THAT?" back and forth to each other, until they were able to make their way back to their ship.

Their CO first laughed at them, then accused them of being lazy and not completing the assignment, then eventually said he would also accuse them of getting into the water drunk if they didn't stop nattering about a giant beast from the sea. So they stopped nattering.

My dad didn't tell anyone for a long time, he doesn't like being treated like an idiot or like someone who makes up stories for attention's sake - but he did end up telling my mom after they met, and me, when I was older.

I guess it's just one of those things that we will never be able to explain.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 05-21-2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Dragons ARE real. I'll introduce you to my ex-wife sometime.

So, is that like a person having the spirit of a dragon then? Can dragons give their souls away?

05-13-2009, 05:00 PM	#1
Gaurcrist Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 40	Dragons I have always loved dragons, and hoped that they are real. If you have watched that one episode about if dragons are real, you will agree with me that they would be the strongest and most endurable creatures alive. I thank Tolkien for including them in his books.

05-14-2009, 06:44 AM	#2
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,314	Welcome to the Barrow-Downs! I also found Tolkien's dragons to be compelling and interesting elements of his books. I cannot, however, say that I "like" Smaug or Glaurung. They are simply too evil. While not technically part of Tolkien's Middle Earth writings, Chrysophylax is far more likeable. Dragons are a classic element of mythology dating back to ancient China and Japan. They are deeply ingrained in western (and British) mythology as well. Consider St. George's dragon. Tolkien also seemed fascinated by the beasts. He sometimes included them in his doodles. So it was not just easy for him to include them in his writings. I would guess he almost felt compelled to do so. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

05-14-2009, 04:07 PM	#3
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Ddraig You cannot have Fantasy withiout Dragons, it would be wrong. If ever there was a Fantasy meme, they are it. Plus they often get the best lines! As a Taff, I'm sure that somewhere up the mountain there exists a proper Red Dragon, regardless of the likelihood, its just you can only see them when you are on the cusp between the everyday world and what you might call faerie, Reality is so over-rated! __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

05-14-2009, 05:25 PM	#4
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,170	Dragons are better than pirates. I've never thought of Smaug as evil, not evil like the Witch King or Sauron or even the Balrog. He's more like a compendium of character traits one doesn't want one's child's to develope. Someone arrogant, pompus, narcissistic, greedy, self-indulgent, self-satisfied, smug, vengeful, wrathful. ~Bethberry, the paperbag princess __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 05-14-2009 at 07:34 PM.

05-14-2009, 05:44 PM	#5
Gaurcrist Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 40	Myths I am sorry I can not relate to any of the names of the dragons or specific names like that of small characters in Tolkien's books, but I have read many of the ancient myths. It seems as if many myths include dragons or creatures similar to dragons, such as Norse myths, Greek myths, Chinese myths, and Japanese myths. That is most of what I know of dragons. The Norse dragon is the Nidhogg, and there are many dragons in Greek myths as well as creatures close to them such as snakes with talons, hydras, and creatures of the sort. I can not relate to Chinese or Japanese dragons.

05-15-2009, 05:27 PM	#6
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,355	Gaurcrist, you may enjoy reading Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea books (if you haven't done so already). Some of the best dragons I've ever met in there - and not evil at all: just old, wise, alien and dangerous. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

05-19-2009, 06:23 PM	#10
Gaurcrist Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 40	I agree I agree with Eonwe in the statement that dragons are not generally given the respect or intuition they deserve. I have read a few books, the "Inheritance" books, and they are some of the best books I have read. They include very intelligent and wise dragons, as well as other creatures and beings such as elves, dwarves, and humans. I suggest them to everyone who likes Tolkien's books, for I believe that you will enjoy them.

05-19-2009, 08:06 PM	#11
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,346	You can't really judge dragons. They're just too mysterious. But I agree that that dragons must be intelligent because even though dragons like Smaug, Glaurung, and Chrysofalax (It's nice that I can spell) took someone who was clever or very strong with great willpower to bring them down. Bilbo wasn't necessarily very strong or wise, but he had a great eye. He was the one who essentially brought down Samug, with a little help from a man with a bow. Turin was strong physically, but he also seemed to have this willpower that could have raised the dead. Farmer Giles on the other hand was just plain clever, that he could outsmart the dragon, so he must have been really clever. As far as other dragons go, I wouldn't know much. Although, since there were dragon myths all over the world, dragons HAD to exist SOMETIME. __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

05-21-2009, 12:53 PM	#15
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,803	My dad was in the navy and he and a buddy of his were training on the sea at night - the object of the exercise was to dive down deep to a certain object and retrieve... something. I think it might have been a small beacon, or something along the same lines - an object that proved they had completed the exercise. Well, while they were down there, they had quite a fright. They both saw something enormous and snake-like, but also odd in the sense that at least one of its ends looked tapered. There are other details as well, I just don't want to repeat them here in case I'm getting them wrong (it's been a while since I heard the story - understandably, my dad doesn't talk about it too much). They had to come up pretty quickly and I think they're actually lucky that they're alive today (since it can be pretty dangerous if you panic under water). And they sort of bobbed on the surface screaming "DID YOU SEE THAT?" back and forth to each other, until they were able to make their way back to their ship. Their CO first laughed at them, then accused them of being lazy and not completing the assignment, then eventually said he would also accuse them of getting into the water drunk if they didn't stop nattering about a giant beast from the sea. So they stopped nattering. My dad didn't tell anyone for a long time, he doesn't like being treated like an idiot or like someone who makes up stories for attention's sake - but he did end up telling my mom after they met, and me, when I was older. I guess it's just one of those things that we will never be able to explain. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~