the afterlife...

[JenFramp]

OK..Where do middle earth humans go when they die? what about dwarves and hobbits..I know about the undying lands..but..where does everyone else go? Like Boromir? Is it ever mentioned anywhere?

[Mithadan]

Eru's "gift" to man is that they are not bound to the circles of Arda and depart when they die. Elves, in contrast, are bound to the substance of Arda and cannot depart; their fear (spirits) are summoned to Mandos upon death where they reside until they are ready to return to life in the West. Dwarves believe they are also gathered to the Halls of Waiting in Mandos, until after the end of the world, they are called upon to assist Aule in its rebuilding. Men are also said to play some role in rebuilding the world, but of Elves, nothing is said.

[zifnab]

Mithadan is basically right. The 'afterlife' of the races of Arda, is cloudy at best. Men and Dwarves only really go on Myth, Legend an beliefs. We really don't know. We can only assume that what they believe is correct. Elves we know for a fact go to Mandos - The Halls of Waiting. And take comfort there to ease any suffering. Untill the time is come when and if they want to leave(Miriel springs to ming here). Some are there for ever i.e Feanor. And some stay for long periods of time i.e Saeros. With 'the rebuilding of Arda' none can say for certain. IMO.

[burrahobbit]

Glorfindel springs more to mind more.

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[JenFramp]

zifnab: wow....your omnipresent? Thats quite a claim..I hope you can't see what I'm doing right now...

[zifnab]

At the moment I believe you are being vociferous chatting to a friend?

Nienna: She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom.

I always found that quote to be very interesting and heartfelt. It seems to bring hope and wisdom to the fallen so that when their time comes, they will be that much capable of accomplishing whatever there duty may be.

[JenFramp]

zifnab: I'm being offensively loud? Hmm.. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] alrighty...

[JenFramp]

zifnab..hey no offense taken [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I love dictionary.com

[Cimmerian]

If the Undying Lands is like Heaven, what is the hell of ME?

ps- I am a hillbred barbarian with no knowledge of such concepts. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[Daniel Telcontar]

I think that both The Undying Lands and Middle-Earth were supposed to be "Heaven", but since Morgoth poisoned ME, it became something like our earth.
It seems that the place that looks most like Hell is beyond the outer circles, where Morgoth is send to as a punishment.
As for humans, it is stated somewhere in the Silmarillion that the spirits of Men after their death goes to "The Timeless Halls", where they are to be together with Eru.
That is why death is called the "Gift of Men", because instead of staying in Arda after death, Men goes to Eru.
I don't remember where in the Silmarillion the Timeless Halls are mentioned, but it is something similar to Heaven.

[zifnab]

: 'Behold I(Eru) love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani(Men) I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.
But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: ''These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.

Is this the quote you are referring too Daniel? It think this one sums it up fairly well.

What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.

I wonder if the Halls of Mandos is that gregarious? Like herd of cattle brought to the barn and put in with there own kind? I don't know if I totally agree with that.

[Nevtalathiel]

This is not about death, but does this

but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else

mean that all creatures other than men are subject to fate? If it does mena this, what about free-will? (yes, I know it's an age-old question, but ME is a new place to explore the arguments!)

[Daniel Telcontar]

I am not sure if I am thinking on the same quote as you Zifnab, but it is something similar to what I meant. Beren, who was dead, comes back to ME but does not tell what he has experienced. But for me, Zifnab's quotes suggest that the spirit of men goes to Eru after their death in ME.