Luthien and Arwen

[Eol]

THis could place either here in the movie board, but I felt like placing it in here. I noticed something interesting the other day when I was overhearing a conversation about some actor and their reaction to the character they were portraying. She mentioned that she thought it was deep that this person gave up their mortality to marry a guy. This happens to be Arwen the actress was talking about. Now wait one moment... Arwen is mortal. The next thing that comes up is the mentioning of Luthien in her description in Book one, fellowship of the ring at the coucil of riverdell. Luthien gave up her immortality to be with Beren. Yet Arwen is her descendent. Someone got their book infor mixed up or did someone play around with stuff and mush the two characers together?

[Elrian]

Arwen was not mortal, look in the tale of years in the back of Return of the King, she was born the year 241 of the Third Age. That would have made her 2777 years old at the time of the Council of Elrond. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Mortals don't live that long. She chose to be mortal when she married Aragorn.

[Eol]

Can you give more specific source( page and sentence..quote?) when it states that she loses her "immortality" when she marries Aragon? Also mortality only means when a person dies...not how long they live. The term would be lifespan.

[Theodred21]

The Appendices of LotR answer most of those questions. Especially Appendix A, part 5, which tells of 'The tale of Aragorn and Arwen'. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Elrian]

It's in there you gotta read it. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Meriadoc1961]

Eol,

Elrond and Elros were brothers born of mixed races, Elf and Man. Each was given an irrevocable choice: to become either of the race of Elves, or of the race of Men. Elrond chose the Elf pathway of immortality, and Elros chose the gift of Men, mortality. Elros and his heirs, the Numenoreans, were granted lifetimes thrice that of other men, but still mortal in fact they were. They also were given an island upon which to dwell in sight of Elven Home and the Undying Lands, but they were forbidden to ever set foot or to assail it. It was the decision of Elros to be mortal which eventually was the downfall of Numenor, as their wish for more life ensued. It was this wish for longer life which was used by Sauron to entice the Numenoreans to usurp the Undying Lands for their own, thereby breaking the Ban of the Valar. The Valar called upon the help of the One, Eru, who then changed the shape of the world, and destroyed Numenor and the followers of Sauron in a great flood.

However, not all Numenoreans were unfaithful. A remnant of the faithful escaped the wrath of Eru and were bore upon great ships, eventually landing upon Middle-earth. Elendil, a descendent of Elros, was their king, and with his sons, Isildur and Anarion, established a new kingdom in exile. Elendil and Gil-galad, Lord of Elves, were later killed in a great battle with Sauron at Orodruin in the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, but Isildur was able to cut off the One Ring from Sauron, ending that guise of Sauron, and claimed the ring for himself. Elrond, the banner bearer of Gil-galad, tried in vain to persuade Isildur to throw the ring into the Fire of which it was made, but Isildur in his pride would not be gainsaid, and he took the ring as weregild for himself and his heirs in honor of his fallen father, proclaiming the ring to be a precious thing of beauty, the only thing of value of which Sauron made.

Elrond was alllowed the privilege of returning to the undying lands once he wearied of Middle-earth and his labors, and his children, of which Arwen was his daughter, were given the option of following their kindred over the Straight Seas to Elven Home, or to choose to become mortal and live their lives in Middle-earth. Arwen chose the latter, proclaiming it as her only choice due to her great love for Aragorn, Isildur's heir. After Aragorn lay down for his final rest in Rath Dinen, Arwen left and returned to Cerin Amroth where she and Aragorn had years earlier betrothed their lives together when there was no hope that either of them would ever be together, and she lay down and died at the foot of the hill.

I hope this helps.

[Elrian]

That was in Lothlorien that she died. Cerin Amroth. That's also in appendix A.

[Eol]

I took some time and did some research and this is what I wrote up. This will be later put up on my webpage:


It should be addressed that Arwen is not immortal and does not lose her "immortality" when she marries Aragon. Arwen is not immortal and neither are the rest of the elves. They are subject to death as man is. The reference of "mortal" to men is that when they die and are not bound to anything as the elves are.

The firstborn of the Iluvatar are known as the Elves, then Man who are also born from the same source(Silmarillion, 41 paragraph 1). Because they are born from the same source they share similarities. Each were given different gifts according to what Eru had knowledge of.

"It is with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it... Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and poingant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief( and to both these seeming deaths they are subject)"(Silmarillion 42 last paragraph).

Since Elves are subject to death and are can be slain, they cannot be immortal. Being immortal means that you last forever and cannot be killed, while mortality signifies that you have to die sometime. The only difference between an elf dying and a human dying is that an elf is bound to the earth and will return when the Earth is reborn. "And dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return"(Silmarillion 42, end of last paragraph).

The term refering to "mortal men" is rather simple but easily confused. This term is merely used to refer to difference between an elf and a human without using either term. These differences lie with their lifespans and their gifts.

The question of whether Arwen is immortal is very simple, she is not immortal. The only thing that would signify her difference is that she did not follow her father. "Elrond grew weary at last and foresook Middle-earth, never to return" leaving with the rest of the elves. Arwen remained behind to become *as a* mortal woman, not *a* mortal woman (Return of the Kings, 426 Appedendix A:5 p 426 forty-first printing book edition). She remained with the rest of the Men and died outside of the haven in Lothlorien.


What do you think?

[Orald]

Tolkien's definiton of immortality differs slightly from yours Eol. Tolkien states that the Eldar are immortal, but Elvish immortality is not truly that because they are built of the same stuff as man and therefore must be able to die from wounds or apparently from great greif and weariness, i.e. Miriel. And also all elves would supposedly start to weary and wane in Middle Earth which was very apparent in Cirdan.

Arwen was not a man or an elf, but a half-elf if that is what you mean. She was given the life alloted to elves until her decision was made, but she was never truly immortal because she never made the choice to follow her father when he went into the West and only if she had would she have been.

[obloquy]

We use the term "immortal" rather loosely with Elves to contrast with "Mortal Men", for this reason (HoMe X: Morgoth's Ring Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth):

The Elves appeared on Earth earlier, but not (mythologically or geologically) much earlier; they were 'immortal', and did not 'die' except by accident.

But in contrast, here's from HoMe X: Morgoth's Ring Myths Transformed[/i]:

As for Elves being 'immortal': they in fact only had enormously long lives, and were themselves physically 'wearing out', and suffering a slow progressive weakening of their bodies.

And this, again from Athrabeth:

Elvish 'immortality' is bounded within a part of Time (which he would call the History of Arda), and is therefore strictly to be called rather 'serial longevity', the utmost limit of which is the length of the existence of Arda. (Author's Note 2, p. 337) A corollary of this is that the Elvish fëa is also limited to the Time of Arda, or at least held within it and unable to leave it, while it lasts.

So there it is. We call the Elves "immortal" because Tolkien did. We could also say that Mortal Man is dying from the moment of his birth: this was not the case with Elves, who were not daily moving closer to death. If, then, it is for this reason that Mortal Man is thus named, the opposite (the Elves) would be Immortal.

Edit: Why is there no "Post Preview" option? :P

[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Elrian]

That was very good Obloquy, and very informative. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

This is an excellent discussion, and I think necessitates trying to sense and understand some of the author's philosophy.

Men's spirits are not of this world. And those spirits have little ability to alter the physical world, except through the application of great courage, will or intellect. But they certainly cannot perserve their own earthly flesh. Disease, mischance and the decay of years (as with the creatures of Yavanna) brings their existence in Middle Earth to an end.

After that they leave the confines of the World-Arda. The parting of Arwen and Elrond is not simply that of one's premature death, but rather profound sadness due to separate metaphysical paths.

For the elves they are immortals in a sense, especially in that even with physical death their spirits remain in Arda, and may return in bodily form within Aman at Mandos' will. The ability of their bodies to not suffer the decay of years or any type of disease, and to die only from very grevious harm or exhaustion (physical or mental, as with Miriel), reflects that they are powerful spirits of this world, created by Iluvatar with physical bodies, unlike the Valar and Maiar. It is even suggested somewhere that they may become true spirits like the Maiar and shed their bodies after eons of contemplation. But those spirits certainly transcend their own flesh while in inhabiting it, and thus they can sustain it, and grow in life through the years, to boot.

Ironically, the elf-friends mentioned by Elrond at the close of his Council (not to mention Barahir and Tuor) are really the champions of the Elder Days, and in many ways outshine and are more beloved than the Lords of Eldar after the passing of Fingolfin and Finrod.

I think that this heroism reflects the other Gift of Man, which is less explicated by Tolkien than mortality, that is "Free Will." Implicitly, it is why Morgoth feared them most of all, but it also gives them the ability to rise above all and do great things, ere they depart this world. In many ways, I look at Feanor as a very man-like elf, who really could not be contained in the physical world any longer, and is certainly not released by Mandos.

In terms of "mortals," I think Gandalf's conversation with Frodo in LOTR Book I, Ch. 2, is very telling. He says that it is perilous for any mortal to wear one of the great rings (which I take to mean all 20). This seems to imply that Dwarves are not quite mortals, like men and hobbits, and indeed they go to a place in the Halls of Mandos at death, and do not seem to grow weary or get sick in Middle-Earth, but simply are given only a limited amount of time there, unlike the elves.

The rings are made with and concentrate the type of power over the earth and the unseen that is the hallmark of the elves and transcends time and space. Hence, the Nazgul and Gollum (and Frodo nearly) are utterly ruined by these rings, which is also why the Hobbit ringbearers cannot really have peace outside of the Aman, whether they die there in time is somewhat unclear.

So, returning to Arwen, the children of Elrond were in many ways men and women with the life, light and fainess of elves, and they would remain of the firstborn if accompanying Elrond to Eldamar. That's when their choice had to be made. By not going with him, Arwen joined the human side of her ancestry, which was only fitting in marrying a man that she not be separated from him beyond the confines of the world. Tolkien would have viewed marriage as a holy sacrament.

What is interesting is to wonder about Elladan and Elrohir. They did not accompany Elrond, nor is there any mention of their passing over at any time shortly thereafter, which they would have had to do within the lifetime of probably that of a lesser man. They may have felt a connection to mankind on some level, too, thus sundering Elrond and Celebrian from all their children, but not from their uncle Elros, and indeed Earendil would have chosen the fate of man if not for Elwing. It may be that Bilbo and Sam took the brethrens' spaces on the Cirdan's ships.

In the end, Tolkien is try to provide a heartful idea -- with the elves -- of how different we are from beings that could logical live and grow in this world indefinitely, even if not without spiritual weariness. Such that our fate is what it should be for the Secondborn with in Iluvatar's designs.

***********

"But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name.'"

[obloquy]

Nice post, Man-of-the-Wold. We sure have had some insightful newcomers lately.