Ered Luin - SIL. to LOTR

[the real findorfin]

Belegost and Nogrod were great mansions of the dwarves in the first age, situated in the ered luin. When beleriand sunk the ered luin get bust up a bit and I assumed the two mansions were destroyed. but then I remembered that Thorin Oakenshield and the gang came from the 'Blue Mountains', through the shire on their way to Erebor.

Did they live in Belegost and Nogrod, or at least the remains???

Were the mansions forged anew after the destruction of beleriand or was a new mansion created? if so, what was it called?

[piosenniel]

From the Encyclopedia of Arda:

The Ered Luin, the mountain chain that formed the eastern border of the lands of Beleriand during the First Age, and in which were the Dwarf-cities of Nogrod and Belegost. After the loss of Beleriand at the end of the First Age, the mountains remained, but they were now in the far west of Middle-earth.

It was my understanding that the two cities were completely destroyed in the War of Wrath, and the mountains broken into two smaller ranges. Dwarves, according to 'The Tolkien Companion' still had settlements and mines in the eastern foothills of the souther range; the northern one being cold and iced over since the breaking.

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

You can find information in regard to the relationships between the two maps in the Appendices(belegost and Nogrod), UT(anchors(eg isle of himling which was the hill of himring in the first age), and The War of the Jewels(scales).

Here is one of the better adaptations I've seen:




In regard to the mansions though they were damgaged according to the appendiced they did continue to exist and thought, it seems, largely abandoned during the beginning of the third age they were later reused. I will clarify a in a little bit.

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

In regard to the movements and residences of the dwarves:

Here is an excerpt from a leter essay of Tolkien's CT named: Of Dwarves and Men and published in The Peoples of Middle-earth(HoME XII):

In the Dwarvish traditions of the Third Age the names of the places where each of the Seven Ancestors had 'awakened' were remembered; but only two of them were known to Elves and Men of the West: the most westerly, the awakening place of the ancestors of the firebeards and Broadbeams; and that of the ancestors of the Longbeards, the eldest in making and awakening. The first had been in the north of Ered Lindon, the great eastern wall of Beleriand, of which the Blue Mountains of the Second and later ages were the remnant; the second had been Mount Gundabad(in origin a Khuzdul name), which was therefore revered by the Dwarves, and its occupation in the Third Age by the Orks of Sauron was one of the cheif reasons for their great hatred of the Orks. The other two places were eastward, at distances as great or greater than that between the Blue Mountains and Gundabad: the arising of the Ironfists and Stiffbeards, and that of the Blackflocks and Stonefoots. Though these four points were far sundered the Dwarves of different kindreds were in communication and in the earley ages often held assemblies of delegates at Mount Gundabad. In times of great need even the most distant would send help to any of their people; as was the case in the great War against the Orks (Third Age 2793 to 2799). Though they were loth to migrate and make permanent dwellings or 'mansions' far from their original homes, except under great pressure from enemies or after some catastrophe such as the ruin of Beleriand, they were great and hardy travellers and skilled road-makers; also all the kindreds shared a common language. -pg 301

As Tolkien seems to allude to in the above it does seem after the destruction of Beleriand at the end the First age the Firebeards and Broadbeams migrated west to Moria as is stated in Appendix A & B:

[/quote]After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim. -Appendix A[/quote]

c.40[S.A.] Many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers. -Appendix B

Therefore it seems that a combination of Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams lived in Moria.

After the awakening of the Balrog and the flight from Moria in 1980-1(T.A.) this polyglot seems to have dispersed a bit mainly to The Grey Mountains in the North and the also to what would be 'the Kingdom under the Mountain'(1999):

[/quote]Most of these that escaped made their way into the North, and Thróin I, Náin's son, came to Erebor, the Lonely Mountain, near the eastern eaves of Mirkwood, and there he began new works, and became King under the Mountain. -Appendix A[/quote]

The majory of those in the North do seem to have been counted among the Longbeards or rather the majority of the Longbeards went north as they are refered to as 'Durin's Folk':

But Thorin I his son removed and went into the far North to the Grey Mountains, where most of Durin's folk were now gathering... -Appendix A

Then after the attacks of the cold drakes(Dáin father of Grór and Thrór was killed in 2589) it does appear most fled to the Iron Hills with Grór and to Erebor with Thrórin:

Not long after most of Durin's Folk abandoned the Grey Mountains. Grór, Dáin's son, went away with many followers to the Iron Hills; but Thrór, Dáin's heir, with Borin his father's brother and the remainder of the people returned to Erebor.

then when the Kingdom under the mountain was taken by Smaug(2770) most traveled south to the Iron Hills though some went wandering with Thrain and Thorin (Oakensheild):

It was afterwards learned that more of the Folk under the Mountain had escaped than was at first hoped; but most of these went to the Iron Hills -footnote to Appendix A

Then later after the Battle of five Armies in 2941 the dwarven Kingdom under the Mountain was reestablished and later after the War of the Ring Gimli established a kingdom in the Glittering Caves:

After the fall of Sauron, Gimli brought south a part of the Dwarf-folk of Erebor, and he became Lord of the Glittering Caves. Appendix A

Changing now to the issue of the Ironfists and Stiffbeards; and the Blackflocks and Stonefoots in the east I think given again:

...they were loth to migrate and make permanent dwellings or 'mansions' far from their original homes, except under great pressure...(HoME 12)

I think we can assume that they probably held 'permanent' residences somewhere in the east.

So in the Third Age(the major areas of inhabitation):

1-1981

• Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams- live mostly in Moria(F&B from Belegost and Nogrod)
• Ironfists and Stiffbeards- probably somewhere in the far East
• Blackflocks and Stonefoots -probably somewhere in the far East

1981-2589

• Longbeards(the majority['most']), Firebeards and Broadbeams- The Grey Mountains
• Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams - Erebor('kindom under the mountain'[1999])
• Ironfists and Stiffbeards- probably somewhere in the far East
• Blackflocks and Stonefoots -probably somewhere in the far East

2589-2770

• Longbeards), Firebeards and Broadbeams- Erebor('kindom under the mountain')
• Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams - The Iron Hills(2590)
• Ironfists and Stiffbeards- probably somewhere in the far East
• Blackflocks and Stonefoots -probably somewhere in the far East

2770-2941(reign of smaug)

• Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams - The Iron Hills
• Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams - apparently some few returned to the blue mountian mansions
• Ironfists and Stiffbeards- probably somewhere in the far East
• Blackflocks and Stonefoots -probably somewhere in the far East

2941-~3019

• Longbeards), Firebeards and Broadbeams- Erebor reestablished('kindom under the mountain')
• Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams - The Iron Hills
• Ironfists and Stiffbeards- probably somewhere in the far East
• Blackflocks and Stonefoots -probably somewhere in the far East

3019<

• Longbeards), Firebeards and Broadbeams- Erebor('kindom under the mountain')
• Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams - The Iron Hills
• Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams - The Glittering Caves
• Longbeards- possibly moria given what is said by Dáin after the Dwarven-Goblin War*
• Ironfists and Stiffbeards- probably somewhere in the far East
• Blackflocks and Stonefoots -probably somewhere in the far East

*"...The World must change and some other power than ours must come beofre Durin's Folk walk again in Moria." -Appendix A

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

I have a question reffering to the map. Is that the most recent one? It looks so off. Maybe it's just the maps that I looked at, but that one looks as if it has more land to it in the upper west, west of the Shire about. Have I just looked at the wrong maps all along, or did someone make a mistake on that one? Sorry, but I had to ask!

[Kuruharan]

It's a map of Middle earth in the First Age. The reason why it looks like there is more land to the west of the Shire is because there is more land to the west of the Shire. That region was known as Beleriand but it was destroyed at the end of the First Age which created the coastline that is more familiar to the readers of LOTR.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lothiriel -- I believe this map shows the ancient kingdoms of Beleriand which sank at the end of the First Age. Perhaps, you are thinking of 3rd age maps at the time of the LotR which include the Shire and which obviously do not include Beleriand since it was under the Sea.

WHOOPS, Kuruharan and I posted at the same time! sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Birdland]

Strange. I just noticed that the same box-y looking mountain range existed in the First Age as well as the Third. (If that is an actual "canon" map of Beleriand) It's known as Mordor in the Third Age. Anyone know what it was called in the First Age?

(I've ordered "Atlas of Middle Earth", but it hasn't arrived yet. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] )

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

That is actually not Mordor. For a 'proper' reindition of the relationship between the lotr-map and the silmarillion map please take note of the map above.

I first thought they must be the same thing as well but geographically it simply does not work out and the scale is all wrong.

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

[Birdland]

Dang. Sure does look "Mordor-y". I mean, what's the chance of having a boxed shaped mountain range twice in the same world. Especially a world that went from flat to round?

[Kuruharan]

The boxy area in the northwest corner of the map was known as Hithlum. It was the kingdom of Fingolfin and his son Fingon during the First Age.

I also believe that the map has a bit of a gaffe on it because the Mountains of Mordor are shown. According to the Atlas of Middle Earth those mountains were submerged under the Inland Sea of Helcar until the breaking of Thangorodrim and the earth moving that accompanied that event.

Hmm, must find out the sources for the maps.

(Birdland, if you are into geography at all you'll love The Atlas. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

Well...I am not to sure about that. While it is obvious that the Inland sea of Helcar indeed covered that area given the maps published in HoME 4(The Shaping of Middle-earth) and further that the sea of rhun may very well be that vastly shrunken(given certain emendations and CT's notes in HoME 11(The War of the Jewels)) I am not sure that such a time schedual is presented. Indeed during the first age the inland sea no doubt looked different but I am not sure such a specific assumption can be drawn.

[piosenniel]

Here is a link to the 1st Age map by Fonstad.

1st Age Map

It shows the Inland Sea of Helcar in place just east of the Great Gulf, across the Straits of the World. It was my understanding that when Thangorodrim was broken, it would have caused a major geologic upheaval resulting in the partial drainage of the Inland Sea by the Great Gulf. The boxy mountain ranges which would be Mordor may have been formed during the volcanic processes caused by this event.