The Ents, and a couple of other things. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ilúvatar · 02-27-2002, 06:41 AM

First: who created them? Was it Eru himself or was it any of the valar, for example Aulë created the dwarfs, didn't he? So if one of the valar created them, it would probably have been Yavanna, she seemed to like plants, flowers and all that [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. And then another thing: Treebeard proclaims he is the oldest living being in Middle Earth (maybe he doesn't, but Gandalf sais it), and I think Tom Bombadil does too. At least Tom sais he has lived a long time [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. But if this is right (that they both say they are the oldest living being of Middle Earth) who is actually the oldest living being in Middle Earth (except for the ainur, and Eru himself then)?

And now, a little "wonder":

Gandalf finds Glamdring in the cave of the three trolls that capture Bilbo and the dwarfs when they are heading for the lonely mountain, and he keeps it. So far so good. But in my knowledge, Gandalf bears Glamdring in Moria, doesn't he? And there he follows the balrog down in the deep and the fight at Zirak-Zigil and Gandalf gets picked up by Gwaihir. Still, so far so good. But when Gandalf visits Théoden in Edoras, he sais to the headguard, Háma, that he shall protect she sword well, because it is old and of great worth (I can't quote it right now, sorry). Wouldn't Gandalf have lost Glamdring when he either: fell, followed the balrog in the water, and continued down in the deep of Moria, then pursued the balrog up to Zirak-Zigil and there he fought it, and defeated it. Can you believe the odds that Glamdring wouldn't fell off? He must have a great deal of luck [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Same thing for the staff he carries, but that is probably more kind of attached to it's owner since they provide to the Istari's magical powers.

And now more of a fault in the movie. This is not a change, but a logical gap:

Gandalf sais after they have left Rivendell something like: "We must hold this course west of the Misty Mountains for 40 days. If our luck holds, the Gap of Rohan will still be open to us." Then when they decide to take the pass of Caradhras (might be wrong spelling) up in the snow Boromir sais that they should travel via the Gap of Rohan but Aragon sais: "The Gap of Rohan takes us too close to Isengard!". Isn't that kind of strange? Even though they discover that the Crébain patrol the way south, that is not Aragorn's motivation for not traveling that way.

Mat_Heathertoes · 02-27-2002, 07:25 AM

The Ents were created by the thought of Yavanna, made into reality by Eru.

Quote:

Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein and be held in reverence, and their just anger be feared.

"Of Aulë and Yavanna" - Chapter 2 - The Silmarillion

The 'children' refers to the Children of Eru, in this case: the elves and the kelvar and olvar are the fauna and flora of Middle-Earth. So it appears that the Elves and Ents awoke at around the same time perhaps the Ents a while earlier but it is not specifically mentioned.

Quote:

I think Tom Bombadil does too. At least Tom sais he has lived a long time

This Tom Bombadil debate trundles on it seems ... Tom is an enigma within the story and according to Tolkien himself, intentionally so. Many theories are propounded on what Tom is, his age and what he represents. My personal theory is that he doesn't really represent anything. Tom is just a 'guest-star' character that Tolkien is particularly fond of for his love of the land and the ecology of the countryside and he wanted to put him within the bounds of this greater tale.

The Glamdring question ... well I always refer to the wise words of Gildor Inglorion quote when pondering the Istari ..

Quote:

'Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards. for they (and their swords) are subtle and quick to anger ...'

Regarding the movie. I can't remember the particular quotes off the top of my pate but i do recall in the book that Gandalf has no intention of going anywhere near the Gap of Rohan and Aragorn is set against the trip through Moria. Only Boromir, in his limited wisdom, thinks the Gap is an alternative.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Mat_Heathertoes ]

Nufaciel · 02-27-2002, 10:11 AM

My guess has always been that Tom is one of the Maiar that decided to stay in Middle-earth. That would explain him being older than elves and that the Ring has no mastery over him.

In the movie, after the crebain show up, Gandalf says that Saruman is watching the Gap of Rohan, and that's why they take the path across Caradhras. When Boromir says let's go to the Gap, and Aragorn says no, because they know that Saruman is expecting them.

Melian · 02-27-2002, 12:13 PM

Hi! I wonder what happened to the ent-wives. Did they just disappear? Is there another book that talks about them?

Ilúvatar · 02-27-2002, 12:50 PM

Hmm, Nufaciel, you said that the maiar cant be affected by the Ring's power? Why does then Gandalf refuse to take the Ring when Frodo offers it to him? Dont take this as critics, I just wonder [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. I'm 99% that he refuses to take the Ring in the book too, at least he does in the movie. But it was like a half year when i read the Triology last time, so as I said, 99% [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. And maybe i was wrong with the whole dialogue between Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir and Gimli what way to go [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Elven-Maiden · 02-27-2002, 03:58 PM

Maybe the eagle picked up the sword for Gandalf when he was on top of the mountain. That's a good thought about Tom. Was Gandalf a Maiar? I know he's an Istari, but is an Istari a Maiar?

Joy · 02-27-2002, 11:43 PM

Elven-Maiden, Istari's are a division of the Maiar. Sauron was a Maia, Gandalf, Saurman and Radagast were Istari's. The Ring did have power over the Maia's and the Istari's. I did think that Tom might have been the inbodiment of Eru, but a quote from Tolkien disqualifies that. I wish I could remember that one.

Ilúvatar · 02-28-2002, 03:48 AM

The question about Tom lives on [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. What is he? I think, as many others, that he is a character Tolkien created to represent himself in the books. But you still want to now what race he is [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Maybe he is a valar who shape-shifted to another form? I'm sure there's some quote against that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. But, the valar would probably have resisted the power of the Ring. The question lives on...

Airetauriel · 02-28-2002, 10:24 AM

I've always wondered on the Entwives! I love the ents - they're so funny- and especially Treebeard. I seem to remember in one of the first few times I read the book I desperately wanted the finding of the Entwives to be part of the ending. But no word on them! Where are they, and are they ever reunited????

Airetauriel

Melian · 02-28-2002, 11:03 AM

I´m reading the Unfinished Tales and I hope there´s something about the entwives there.
Anyway, I can´t wait so if you know what happened to them, don´t hesitate and tell me! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Mayla Took · 02-28-2002, 11:05 AM

I have often wondered that myself Airetauriel and felt the exact way you did when you read about the Entwives. Does anyone know? I have not yet read the Silmarilion all the way through....yet, so I can't say if they are mentioned in the Sil.

zifnab · 02-28-2002, 12:37 PM

Entwives: I believe it is a mystery that will never be solved.

'I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429 - 3441)...' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954).

Tolkien says "think", so it is not a concrete answer. Its possibly for almost anything to have happened to the entwives. Maybe they were all destroyed, some may have fled, some may have started another home, somewhere far away.

Tom Bombadil=Aborigine [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Old Man Willow, and the Barrow-wight had already existed for some time, appearing in print in the pages of The Oxford Magazine(Vol, LII,no.13,15 February 1934). In a letter of 1954 my father said:
I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it. But many have found him an odd or indeed discordant ingredient. In historical fact I put him in because I had already "invented" him independently (he first appeared in the Oxford Magazine) and wanted an 'adventure' on the way.-Written by Christopher Tolkien in The Return of the Shadow/The old forest and the Witywindle.

Well said, Tolkien. "I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it."!

I believe that latter the story with Tom Bombadil in the Oxford Magazine was released as "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil", and latter gave it the title "Bombadil goes boating", and now I believe you can purchase it in the book "The Tolkien Reader", which has many peoms and short storys.

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]

03-01-2002, 01:58 AM

About Tom. I know this has been debated for centuries, much like balrog wings, but I can say within reason that he would have to be stronger than a maiar and less then eru. So, that elimantes a lot of options. IMHO, it would be best to assume, if anything, that he was a Valar. If you don't want to assume then he's in the "other" (enigma) category, us barrow-downs' people are so fond of.

02-27-2002, 06:41 AM	#1
Ilúvatar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 12	The Ents, and a couple of other things. First: who created them? Was it Eru himself or was it any of the valar, for example Aulë created the dwarfs, didn't he? So if one of the valar created them, it would probably have been Yavanna, she seemed to like plants, flowers and all that [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. And then another thing: Treebeard proclaims he is the oldest living being in Middle Earth (maybe he doesn't, but Gandalf sais it), and I think Tom Bombadil does too. At least Tom sais he has lived a long time [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. But if this is right (that they both say they are the oldest living being of Middle Earth) who is actually the oldest living being in Middle Earth (except for the ainur, and Eru himself then)? And now, a little "wonder": Gandalf finds Glamdring in the cave of the three trolls that capture Bilbo and the dwarfs when they are heading for the lonely mountain, and he keeps it. So far so good. But in my knowledge, Gandalf bears Glamdring in Moria, doesn't he? And there he follows the balrog down in the deep and the fight at Zirak-Zigil and Gandalf gets picked up by Gwaihir. Still, so far so good. But when Gandalf visits Théoden in Edoras, he sais to the headguard, Háma, that he shall protect she sword well, because it is old and of great worth (I can't quote it right now, sorry). Wouldn't Gandalf have lost Glamdring when he either: fell, followed the balrog in the water, and continued down in the deep of Moria, then pursued the balrog up to Zirak-Zigil and there he fought it, and defeated it. Can you believe the odds that Glamdring wouldn't fell off? He must have a great deal of luck [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Same thing for the staff he carries, but that is probably more kind of attached to it's owner since they provide to the Istari's magical powers. And now more of a fault in the movie. This is not a change, but a logical gap: Gandalf sais after they have left Rivendell something like: "We must hold this course west of the Misty Mountains for 40 days. If our luck holds, the Gap of Rohan will still be open to us." Then when they decide to take the pass of Caradhras (might be wrong spelling) up in the snow Boromir sais that they should travel via the Gap of Rohan but Aragon sais: "The Gap of Rohan takes us too close to Isengard!". Isn't that kind of strange? Even though they discover that the Crébain patrol the way south, that is not Aragorn's motivation for not traveling that way. __________________ Just a thought: Why do people in movies etc. often run straight ahead when they're chased by a car for example. I know this has nothing to do with Tolkien, but it's an interesting thought.

02-27-2002, 10:11 AM	#3
Nufaciel Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 133	My guess has always been that Tom is one of the Maiar that decided to stay in Middle-earth. That would explain him being older than elves and that the Ring has no mastery over him. In the movie, after the crebain show up, Gandalf says that Saruman is watching the Gap of Rohan, and that's why they take the path across Caradhras. When Boromir says let's go to the Gap, and Aragorn says no, because they know that Saruman is expecting them. __________________ Member of Pervy Elf Fanciers Anonymous...I need professional help.

02-27-2002, 12:13 PM	#4
Melian Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 27	Hi! I wonder what happened to the ent-wives. Did they just disappear? Is there another book that talks about them? __________________ "Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens."

02-27-2002, 12:50 PM	#5
Ilúvatar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 12	Hmm, Nufaciel, you said that the maiar cant be affected by the Ring's power? Why does then Gandalf refuse to take the Ring when Frodo offers it to him? Dont take this as critics, I just wonder [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. I'm 99% that he refuses to take the Ring in the book too, at least he does in the movie. But it was like a half year when i read the Triology last time, so as I said, 99% [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. And maybe i was wrong with the whole dialogue between Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir and Gimli what way to go [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. __________________ Just a thought: Why do people in movies etc. often run straight ahead when they're chased by a car for example. I know this has nothing to do with Tolkien, but it's an interesting thought.

02-27-2002, 03:58 PM	#6
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Maybe the eagle picked up the sword for Gandalf when he was on top of the mountain. That's a good thought about Tom. Was Gandalf a Maiar? I know he's an Istari, but is an Istari a Maiar? __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-27-2002, 11:43 PM	#7
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,014	Elven-Maiden, Istari's are a division of the Maiar. Sauron was a Maia, Gandalf, Saurman and Radagast were Istari's. The Ring did have power over the Maia's and the Istari's. I did think that Tom might have been the inbodiment of Eru, but a quote from Tolkien disqualifies that. I wish I could remember that one. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

02-28-2002, 03:48 AM	#8
Ilúvatar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 12	The question about Tom lives on [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. What is he? I think, as many others, that he is a character Tolkien created to represent himself in the books. But you still want to now what race he is [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Maybe he is a valar who shape-shifted to another form? I'm sure there's some quote against that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. But, the valar would probably have resisted the power of the Ring. The question lives on... __________________ Just a thought: Why do people in movies etc. often run straight ahead when they're chased by a car for example. I know this has nothing to do with Tolkien, but it's an interesting thought.

02-28-2002, 10:24 AM	#9
Airetauriel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 47	I've always wondered on the Entwives! I love the ents - they're so funny- and especially Treebeard. I seem to remember in one of the first few times I read the book I desperately wanted the finding of the Entwives to be part of the ending. But no word on them! Where are they, and are they ever reunited???? Airetauriel

02-28-2002, 11:03 AM	#10
Melian Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 27	I´m reading the Unfinished Tales and I hope there´s something about the entwives there. Anyway, I can´t wait so if you know what happened to them, don´t hesitate and tell me! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ "Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens."

02-28-2002, 11:05 AM	#11
Mayla Took Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 152	I have often wondered that myself Airetauriel and felt the exact way you did when you read about the Entwives. Does anyone know? I have not yet read the Silmarilion all the way through....yet, so I can't say if they are mentioned in the Sil. __________________ Good Things Come in Small Packages. (And don't you forget it!) Pippin:"What is that?!?" Merry:"This, my friend, is a pint!" Pippin:"It comes in PINTS?!?....I'm getting one!" "Don't let your heads get too big for your hats! But if you don't finish growing up soon, you are going to find hats and clothes expensive." Bilbo to Merry and Pippin "Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party. Throw yourself in next time, and then you will be no further nuisance. Now be quiet!" Gandalf to Pippin in Moria E-mail me at mailto:ThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.comThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.com</A> Oh, and please rate me. THANKS!

02-28-2002, 12:37 PM	#12
zifnab Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omni-presence Posts: 329	Entwives: I believe it is a mystery that will never be solved. 'I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429 - 3441)...' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954). Tolkien says "think", so it is not a concrete answer. Its possibly for almost anything to have happened to the entwives. Maybe they were all destroyed, some may have fled, some may have started another home, somewhere far away. Tom Bombadil=Aborigine [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Old Man Willow, and the Barrow-wight had already existed for some time, appearing in print in the pages of The Oxford Magazine(Vol, LII,no.13,15 February 1934). In a letter of 1954 my father said: I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it. But many have found him an odd or indeed discordant ingredient. In historical fact I put him in because I had already "invented" him independently (he first appeared in the Oxford Magazine) and wanted an 'adventure' on the way.-Written by Christopher Tolkien in The Return of the Shadow/The old forest and the Witywindle. Well said, Tolkien. "I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it."! I believe that latter the story with Tom Bombadil in the Oxford Magazine was released as "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil", and latter gave it the title "Bombadil goes boating", and now I believe you can purchase it in the book "The Tolkien Reader", which has many peoms and short storys. [ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ] __________________ Facebook.

03-01-2002, 01:58 AM	#13
J.Wolfe Guest Posts: n/a	About Tom. I know this has been debated for centuries, much like balrog wings, but I can say within reason that he would have to be stronger than a maiar and less then eru. So, that elimantes a lot of options. IMHO, it would be best to assume, if anything, that he was a Valar. If you don't want to assume then he's in the "other" (enigma) category, us barrow-downs' people are so fond of.