Mandos - The Halls of Waiting. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

zifnab · 03-04-2002, 02:54 PM

Does Mandos summon the spirits of fallen Maiar, to his “Halls of Waiting”, and if so, where are they kept and for what purpose?

Mandos and his halls seem to be a very vague subject. A subject that leaves me with little answers and more questions. Ok, here goes some facts and thoughts about Mandos.

1. Mandos – (Namo{True name}) – Ainur/Valar– One of the Feanturi and one of 8 in the order of the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda.
2. Mandos was the “The Doomsmen of the Valar” and keeper of the slain in his Halls in the west of Valinor.

The Halls of the Mandos were in Valinor, and it is where the Elves were sent after they were slain.

. “He is the keeper of the houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Iluvatar. He is the doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his judgments only at the bidding of Manwe.” – Valaquenta/Silmarillion

We also know he has foresight, a good example would be the “Doom of Mandos” to Feanor and followers, “…and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abode and yearn for your bodies, and find pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. – Of the Flight of the Noldor/Silmarillion[/I]

Most of the races have some belief in the “Halls of Waiting”, we know it is a fact for the Elves. And quite possibly the Men, and Dwarves. There is not much information, I have read, that tells me more about the last two’s ultimate fate. The hobbits and Ents, I have no clue.

Men and Elves - “For the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poigant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grows weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die instead, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.” – Of the Beginning of Days/Silmarillion

Men - “Some say that they go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of the Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainor.” – Of Men/Silmarillion

Dwarver - “For the say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to the Fathers of old that Iluvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.” – Of Aule and Yavanna/Silmarillion

Ok now that, that is done I can move on to the subject “Does Mandos summon Maiar spirits after they are slain into the Halls of Waiting? Is he powerful enough to summon those spirits? And if/when they are summoned where do they recede in the Halls?

First off I would say, Yes he is powerful enough to summon the spirits to his Halls. If that is his duty of course. Although it is hard to prove, if he was that powerful and if that was his duty. Some example’s of Maiar spirits would be Saruman and Sauron, and maybe alittle bit of Gandalf.

When Saruman passes away it says, “…about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like the smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. Frodo looked down at the body with pity and horror, for as he looked it seemed that long years of death were suddenly revealed in it, and it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of skin upon a hideous skull. Lifting up the skirt of the dirty cloak that sprawled beside it, he covered it over, and turned away.” – The Scouring of the Shire/The Return of the King

It appears that the spirit of Saruman did in fact look for the “Undying Lands”, or even the “Halls of Waiting”, but was denied. One thing that is interesting is the way in which his body is suddenly transformed into a pile of nothingness. Much as the body of Feanors did when he passed on, “so fiery was his spirits that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke.” That is not the same, but both bodies are destroyed in one way or another.

Sauron’s seems a tad bit more confusing. In the Downfall of Numenor, it says,

“But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yes his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea.” – Akallabeth/Silmarillion

Now Sauron and Saruman were both Maiars. After Saruman is destroyed his spirit disolves into nothing, but Saurons continue to live, maybe with the help of the ring. But why didn’t Mandos or the Ainur at that time take care of Sauron’s spirits. Mandos was “all-knowing”, so I assume he knew what happened. After Saurons ultimate defeat in the “War of the Ring”, not much is said besides the destruction of Mount Doom and the area around it. And that a vast, impenetrable huge shadow rose up out of the destruction and,

“…stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed away, and then a hush fell.”

One could assume this is the spirit of Sauron, but instead of being summoned to Mandos, it is blown away much like Sarumans. Where do these spirits go? Is this what the End of the World, and the Last Battle will be, the totally destruction of these spirits, or the destruction of the world by these spirits after they take form again? Is that possible? Sauron has proved before it is, but that was with the ring. Will these spirits have anything to do with the release of Melkor? This seems unlikely, but who knows?

“…and he (Melkor) was cast into prison in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man.” – Of the Coming of the Elves/Silmarillion

Gandalf seems to be the hardest to understand yet. After the battle with the Balrog, Gandalf says: “Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. Naked I was sent back-for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top.” This seems to confuse me even more. Gandalf is the only example of a good Maiar that has died, it is the most confusing one yet. Was his spirit summoned back to the Undying Lands, and then became Gandalf the White in spirit and came back to his body on the top of Celebdil? Or was his entire body turned to ash and dust, as the others had did, and came back in a new body? But was it Mandos who summoned him? .It seems I have read more about Gandalfs return from death (so to say), but I cannot remember where I read it, and what it says.

It seems that there is a separate “storage” for the bad apples, such as Feanor and Melkor(when he was there). And maybe others like Eol or Saeros. Is this where Sauran and Saruman would have gone, if they actually had gotten there? It seems that many of the bad apples were kept for a long period of time, for punishment I suppose.

Feanor – “…neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.” Silm

Saeros – “…and long would Mandos hold him.” UT/Narn I Hin Hurin

Would this punishment fit the corrupted Maiar, it fit Melkor for 3 ages.

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

onewhitetree · 03-04-2002, 04:23 PM

I agree!

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-05-2002, 07:01 AM

After giving this topic considerable consideration, I would like to say that onewhitetree has expressed my sentiments precisely and concisely. I concur wholeheartedly!

zifnab · 03-05-2002, 10:14 AM

"Smacks onewhitetree and Estelyn Telcontar
around with a large trout*

[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Mhoram · 03-05-2002, 02:37 PM

I agree with you zif,

Quote:

“…and he (Melkor) was cast into prison in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man.”

This was done with the thought that Melkor might be rehabilitated, as we can conclude by the fact that he had a parole board hearing 3 ages later and Manwe believed that he was indeed rehabiliated.

If they thought that Melkor could be rehabilitated, then surely they give the same chance to the other Maiar that die after a life of evil.

I wouldn't put overmuch value in the accounts of Saruman and Sauron's spirit/mists after their deaths, this was afterall part of the Lord of the Rings, before Tolkien had figured out how everything worked with spirits and such.

I have no text to present, but I would assume both Saruman and Sauron were summoned to the Halls of Mandos. Whether or not spirits can deny the summons, that's a question that needs to be tackled. It seems Sauron did after his body was destroyed in the fall of Numenor. I know i've read somewhere in a thread about elves denying the summons, if someone could present that text, it would help.

Mhoram · 03-05-2002, 03:24 PM

Here's the thread I was refering to:
http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=8&t=000068

Thingol · 03-05-2002, 03:31 PM

The Fea (spirit) can never be destroyed by anyone accept Illuvitar. It was Illuvitar, not the Valar who sent Gandalf back with enhanced powers. It is possible that Illuvitar did not actually enhance Gandaf’s power but merely allowed him to use more of his native power. Gandalf and the other Istari willingly incarnate themselves into human forms. When a Maia incarnates his/herself they may for a time increase their physical power, but if the physical body is destroyed the spirit is severely weakened. I do not believe that Mandos has any power over Maia spirits, he does not even have power over elven spirits. Many elves have refused the summons of Mandos, and many have even been taken by Melkor/Sauron. The Werewolves and the Barrow Wights were probably inhabited by corrupted elven spirits. Any mention of fell spirits has to be either elven spirits or lesser Maia. I believe that Saruman wanted to return to the west, but he was rejected. He is doomed to wander the Earth, bodiless and unable to take shape again. Because he was incarnated and his physical body killed, his power was severely weakened and no longer has the power to take on a form. On the other hand Melian's spirit was allowed back into Valinor where hopefully she found some healing. Sauron was one of the most powerful of the Maia (The only Maia that I think is above him is Eonwe), he becomes even greater than Melkor (after Melkor disperses most of his power that is). It is unclear if Sauron ever actually incarnates himself into a body. After the downfall of Numenor he is unable to ever appear in a fair form again, but it is possible that he could take evil forms. When Sauron is slain by Gil-Galad and Elendil (I don't agree with the movie's version of Islidur cutting the Ring from Sauron and Sauron's body immediately ceasing to exist. Sauron existed without the Ring in the 3rd age and Tolkien said that Sauron would still have to be dealt with if someone else claimed the Ring) at the end of the second age his spirit is weakened, but because he let so much of his power pass into the Ring Sauron's spirit was still very potent. After more than a thousand years went by Sauron was able to reform a body for himself. However, Sauron was now dependent on the Ring. After the Ring is destroyed Sauron "falls so low that he would never be able to arise again" (Gandalf says something to that effect in the Last Debate in the Return of the King). In the Silmarillion it says that Sauron follows the path of Melkor into the void. I've always taken that to mean that Sauron did not wander Middle Earth in a weakened state, unable to take on form again, but was either thrust out by the Valar or managed to find his own way out to join his master.

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-05-2002, 04:22 PM

Me too! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

zifnab · 03-05-2002, 04:22 PM

Good points Mho and Thingol. I had forgotten about the order of books(in creation), and about the "spirits denying the summoning Mandos".

Mhoram · 03-05-2002, 08:34 PM

AH HA!!!

"But in after years he[Sauron] rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." - Last sentence of the Valaquenta, Silmarilion.

I think I need not spell out the implications of this in regards to the topic.

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

03-06-2002, 02:53 AM

Maybe I'm biased, but I still think Melkor could have taken Sauron even after Melkor's powers were dispersed to its greatest length. That is another discussion though, so I won't go into to it. Just wanted to add it in though since I'm pro-Morgoth. In comparison only to Sauron though. Poor wondering spirits. I wonder what happens to them after the last battle, where Morgoth finally escapes from the void.

zifnab · 03-06-2002, 10:16 AM

Thanks Mho! So, Morgoth and Sauron are both together in the Void(non-tim,bruce), no doubt plotting even deeds and playing "Pin the wing on the Balrog".

This brings another questions to mind. What happens to the 'fea' of evil beings? If some of the Elves were in fact 'transformed' into orcs, then is it their fault, should they suffer the same fate as the others(what ever that is)? Or is it just their bodies which are transformed and their spirit leaves only to be inhabited with an evil one?

Where may I find in text the above comments of "Spirits dening the summoning of Mandos", and "Morgoth does escape the Void for the last battle"?

Thanks guys!

Mhoram · 03-06-2002, 09:35 PM

The thread I linked to has all the quotes about elves denying the summons. As far as Morgoth coming back from the void, that's part of the Second Prophecy of Mandos, a part that never got finished and really can't be looked to as fact or 'canon' if you will.

03-04-2002, 02:54 PM	#1
zifnab Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omni-presence Posts: 329	Mandos - The Halls of Waiting. Does Mandos summon the spirits of fallen Maiar, to his “Halls of Waiting”, and if so, where are they kept and for what purpose? Mandos and his halls seem to be a very vague subject. A subject that leaves me with little answers and more questions. Ok, here goes some facts and thoughts about Mandos. 1. Mandos – (Namo{True name}) – Ainur/Valar– One of the Feanturi and one of 8 in the order of the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda. 2. Mandos was the “The Doomsmen of the Valar” and keeper of the slain in his Halls in the west of Valinor. The Halls of the Mandos were in Valinor, and it is where the Elves were sent after they were slain. . “He is the keeper of the houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Iluvatar. He is the doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his judgments only at the bidding of Manwe.” – Valaquenta/Silmarillion We also know he has foresight, a good example would be the “Doom of Mandos” to Feanor and followers, “…and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abode and yearn for your bodies, and find pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. – Of the Flight of the Noldor/Silmarillion[/I] Most of the races have some belief in the “Halls of Waiting”, we know it is a fact for the Elves. And quite possibly the Men, and Dwarves. There is not much information, I have read, that tells me more about the last two’s ultimate fate. The hobbits and Ents, I have no clue. Men and Elves - “For the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poigant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grows weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die instead, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.” – Of the Beginning of Days/Silmarillion Men - “Some say that they go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of the Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainor.” – Of Men/Silmarillion Dwarver - “For the say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to the Fathers of old that Iluvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.” – Of Aule and Yavanna/Silmarillion Ok now that, that is done I can move on to the subject “Does Mandos summon Maiar spirits after they are slain into the Halls of Waiting? Is he powerful enough to summon those spirits? And if/when they are summoned where do they recede in the Halls? First off I would say, Yes he is powerful enough to summon the spirits to his Halls. If that is his duty of course. Although it is hard to prove, if he was that powerful and if that was his duty. Some example’s of Maiar spirits would be Saruman and Sauron, and maybe alittle bit of Gandalf. When Saruman passes away it says, “…about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like the smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. Frodo looked down at the body with pity and horror, for as he looked it seemed that long years of death were suddenly revealed in it, and it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of skin upon a hideous skull. Lifting up the skirt of the dirty cloak that sprawled beside it, he covered it over, and turned away.” – The Scouring of the Shire/The Return of the King It appears that the spirit of Saruman did in fact look for the “Undying Lands”, or even the “Halls of Waiting”, but was denied. One thing that is interesting is the way in which his body is suddenly transformed into a pile of nothingness. Much as the body of Feanors did when he passed on, “so fiery was his spirits that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke.” That is not the same, but both bodies are destroyed in one way or another. Sauron’s seems a tad bit more confusing. In the Downfall of Numenor, it says, “But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yes his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea.” – Akallabeth/Silmarillion Now Sauron and Saruman were both Maiars. After Saruman is destroyed his spirit disolves into nothing, but Saurons continue to live, maybe with the help of the ring. But why didn’t Mandos or the Ainur at that time take care of Sauron’s spirits. Mandos was “all-knowing”, so I assume he knew what happened. After Saurons ultimate defeat in the “War of the Ring”, not much is said besides the destruction of Mount Doom and the area around it. And that a vast, impenetrable huge shadow rose up out of the destruction and, “…stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed away, and then a hush fell.” One could assume this is the spirit of Sauron, but instead of being summoned to Mandos, it is blown away much like Sarumans. Where do these spirits go? Is this what the End of the World, and the Last Battle will be, the totally destruction of these spirits, or the destruction of the world by these spirits after they take form again? Is that possible? Sauron has proved before it is, but that was with the ring. Will these spirits have anything to do with the release of Melkor? This seems unlikely, but who knows? “…and he (Melkor) was cast into prison in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man.” – Of the Coming of the Elves/Silmarillion Gandalf seems to be the hardest to understand yet. After the battle with the Balrog, Gandalf says: “Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. Naked I was sent back-for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top.” This seems to confuse me even more. Gandalf is the only example of a good Maiar that has died, it is the most confusing one yet. Was his spirit summoned back to the Undying Lands, and then became Gandalf the White in spirit and came back to his body on the top of Celebdil? Or was his entire body turned to ash and dust, as the others had did, and came back in a new body? But was it Mandos who summoned him? .It seems I have read more about Gandalfs return from death (so to say), but I cannot remember where I read it, and what it says. It seems that there is a separate “storage” for the bad apples, such as Feanor and Melkor(when he was there). And maybe others like Eol or Saeros. Is this where Sauran and Saruman would have gone, if they actually had gotten there? It seems that many of the bad apples were kept for a long period of time, for punishment I suppose. Feanor – “…neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.” Silm Saeros – “…and long would Mandos hold him.” UT/Narn I Hin Hurin Would this punishment fit the corrupted Maiar, it fit Melkor for 3 ages. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ Facebook.

03-04-2002, 04:23 PM	#2
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 269	I agree! __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

03-05-2002, 07:01 AM	#3
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,535	After giving this topic considerable consideration, I would like to say that onewhitetree has expressed my sentiments precisely and concisely. I concur wholeheartedly! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-05-2002, 10:14 AM	#4
zifnab Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omni-presence Posts: 329	"Smacks onewhitetree and Estelyn Telcontar around with a large trout* [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ Facebook.

03-05-2002, 03:31 PM	#7
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	The Fea (spirit) can never be destroyed by anyone accept Illuvitar. It was Illuvitar, not the Valar who sent Gandalf back with enhanced powers. It is possible that Illuvitar did not actually enhance Gandaf’s power but merely allowed him to use more of his native power. Gandalf and the other Istari willingly incarnate themselves into human forms. When a Maia incarnates his/herself they may for a time increase their physical power, but if the physical body is destroyed the spirit is severely weakened. I do not believe that Mandos has any power over Maia spirits, he does not even have power over elven spirits. Many elves have refused the summons of Mandos, and many have even been taken by Melkor/Sauron. The Werewolves and the Barrow Wights were probably inhabited by corrupted elven spirits. Any mention of fell spirits has to be either elven spirits or lesser Maia. I believe that Saruman wanted to return to the west, but he was rejected. He is doomed to wander the Earth, bodiless and unable to take shape again. Because he was incarnated and his physical body killed, his power was severely weakened and no longer has the power to take on a form. On the other hand Melian's spirit was allowed back into Valinor where hopefully she found some healing. Sauron was one of the most powerful of the Maia (The only Maia that I think is above him is Eonwe), he becomes even greater than Melkor (after Melkor disperses most of his power that is). It is unclear if Sauron ever actually incarnates himself into a body. After the downfall of Numenor he is unable to ever appear in a fair form again, but it is possible that he could take evil forms. When Sauron is slain by Gil-Galad and Elendil (I don't agree with the movie's version of Islidur cutting the Ring from Sauron and Sauron's body immediately ceasing to exist. Sauron existed without the Ring in the 3rd age and Tolkien said that Sauron would still have to be dealt with if someone else claimed the Ring) at the end of the second age his spirit is weakened, but because he let so much of his power pass into the Ring Sauron's spirit was still very potent. After more than a thousand years went by Sauron was able to reform a body for himself. However, Sauron was now dependent on the Ring. After the Ring is destroyed Sauron "falls so low that he would never be able to arise again" (Gandalf says something to that effect in the Last Debate in the Return of the King). In the Silmarillion it says that Sauron follows the path of Melkor into the void. I've always taken that to mean that Sauron did not wander Middle Earth in a weakened state, unable to take on form again, but was either thrust out by the Valar or managed to find his own way out to join his master. __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

03-05-2002, 03:24 PM	#6
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Here's the thread I was refering to: http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=8&t=000068

03-05-2002, 04:22 PM	#8
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 652	Me too! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

03-05-2002, 08:34 PM	#10
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	AH HA!!! "But in after years he[Sauron] rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." - Last sentence of the Valaquenta, Silmarilion. I think I need not spell out the implications of this in regards to the topic. [ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

03-06-2002, 02:53 AM	#11
J.Wolfe Guest Posts: n/a	Maybe I'm biased, but I still think Melkor could have taken Sauron even after Melkor's powers were dispersed to its greatest length. That is another discussion though, so I won't go into to it. Just wanted to add it in though since I'm pro-Morgoth. In comparison only to Sauron though. Poor wondering spirits. I wonder what happens to them after the last battle, where Morgoth finally escapes from the void.

03-06-2002, 10:16 AM	#12
zifnab Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omni-presence Posts: 329	Thanks Mho! So, Morgoth and Sauron are both together in the Void(non-tim,bruce), no doubt plotting even deeds and playing "Pin the wing on the Balrog". This brings another questions to mind. What happens to the 'fea' of evil beings? If some of the Elves were in fact 'transformed' into orcs, then is it their fault, should they suffer the same fate as the others(what ever that is)? Or is it just their bodies which are transformed and their spirit leaves only to be inhabited with an evil one? Where may I find in text the above comments of "Spirits dening the summoning of Mandos", and "Morgoth does escape the Void for the last battle"? Thanks guys! __________________ Facebook.

03-06-2002, 09:35 PM	#13
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	The thread I linked to has all the quotes about elves denying the summons. As far as Morgoth coming back from the void, that's part of the Second Prophecy of Mandos, a part that never got finished and really can't be looked to as fact or 'canon' if you will.