Gothmog as Pat - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mormegil · 11-20-2006, 05:53 PM

Ninja raised a question on this thread that I believe would make a fun poll. So what is Gothmog? It's never clearly stated or even hinted as to what race he is. So what do you believe and why? To be clear this is the Gothmog of the third age.

radagastly · 11-20-2006, 06:10 PM

I voted for Gothmog as Nazgul. (which I suppose would also make him Man, of sorts). I know there is no evidence to either support or decry this view of him, but I have never imagined him as anything else in thirty years of reading/re-reading. I was actually surprised that anyone ever considered him to be anything else.

ninja91 · 11-20-2006, 09:13 PM

To explain myself for voting other, I cant see a good explanation as to how he could be a Nazgul. Yes, the Witch King being the captain could very well make a Nazgul being Lieutenant logical, but I think that Tolkien would not have made it such a mystery if it was really that simple.

And orc? I cant say that I think one orc would rise up to be the lieutenant of the Morgul-Host without being mentioned before. That is a pretty high rank.

If he was a man, I think he would have to be one of the Black Numenoreans, because I cannot think of another big race of men so high up in Sauron's mind (i.e. the Mouth of Sauron).

That's just my opinion though. For all we know, it could have been Tom Bombadil in disguise.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-23-2006, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radagastly

I voted for Gothmog as Nazgul. (which I suppose would also make him Man, of sorts). I know there is no evidence to either support or decry this view of him, but I have never imagined him as anything else in thirty years of reading/re-reading. I was actually surprised that anyone ever considered him to be anything else.

Really? Myself, I am actually surprised that someone even thought about him being a nazgul. Just wonderful! I mean, I love this plurality of opinions. Myself, when I saw the option "nazgul" in the poll, I thought: ah, interesting, but don't think anyone will go for it. From my point, I could say who I don't think he is. As I feel it, I cannot imagine Gothmog as:
simple "snaga" - this would certainly be quite embarassing
skurut-hai - well... maybe... but since he is too high-ranked, it would be very improbable. Certainly not that guy from the movie. No, never.
black númenorean - that's too high for him. Although after some thinking about it he might be something like that, from the first sight his name does not fit with it, I imagine something more "rough" than númenoreans (even black)
nazgul - as above. And anyway, Gothmog would hardly be his true name when he was still Man - but no one says nazgul keep their names when they fade out.
easterling - sucks
southron - sucks
variag of Khand - same as above
or whatever else of these men;
So it seems Gothmog is maybe troll - lol - probably olog-hai, or some hyperbrutal barbarian of far East beyond the maps of Middle-earth. If you ask what I imagined when reading that part where he is mentioned, I imagined just the rush of battle and some unspotted one Gothmog standing between thousands of Easterlings, Variags of Khand and black men of Far Harad. He's just Gothmog: he is what we is. Which brings me to...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja91

For all we know, it could have been Tom Bombadil in disguise.

Talking about that, I'd consider him something like Tom Bombadil for the dark side. See: certainly powerful and mighty person (as Bombadil is in the terms of those who look at him without more deeper thoughts about who he is), not mentioned before and not mentioned after, but considerable for the course of the events.

Macalaure · 11-23-2006, 10:32 AM

Even though I agree that it would make some sense that Gothmog was a Nazgul, but, somehow, I can't imagine him as such, just like Legate.

He surely was no simple orc, maybe some mighty orc captain, but I doubt it. He would have had the strength and authority needed, but he still would have been no more trustworthy than any orc.

I always imagined him as some sort of Black Numenorean, or some other human of a nobler kind long under the power of Sauron. (Earnur?

)

What I think we can rule out is that he was something else. I mean, come on, just look at how much joy Tolkien obviously had when he described such things, the description of the Fell Beasts, for example. If Gothmog was something else what we didn't knew then, he would have told us and he would have described him to us, gloomy and vaguely, and the lines would have been little gems of the trilogy.

**The Saucepan Man** · 11-23-2006, 11:12 AM

Gothmog was portrayed as a Nazgul in a LotR wargame which I used to play many years ago (and which I still have) and I have accordingly thought of him as such ever since.

Simple reasoning for a simple soul.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 11-23-2006, 03:52 PM

I've always just assumed that Gothmog was a Nazgul -- I mean, it's pretty clear, isn't it, that the Nazgul are the worst and most powerful of Sauron's servants. It doesn't make sense that there could be an orc or even a powerful Man who somehow supercedes 8 of the 9...I mean:

Orc -- debased and broken slaves; quarrel amongst themselves; stupid. Given the sample orcs we've seen, can you imagine a creature like that ordering around a Nazgul?

Men -- better than orcs, but Nazgul are Men corrupted by and enhanced with a Ring of Power: why, if you are a Nazgul, have as your second in command a Ringless Man when you can have a Ringed Man?

Liriodendron · 01-12-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Gothmog was portrayed as a Nazgul in a LotR wargame which I used to play many years ago (and which I still have) and I have accordingly thought of him as such ever since.

Simple reasoning for a simple soul.

Really! Someone better tell them they made a mistake!

The Sixth Wizard · 02-16-2007, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

black númenorean - that's too high for him. Although after some thinking about it he might be something like that, from the first sight his name does not fit with it, I imagine something more "rough" than númenoreans (even black)

Too 'rough' a name? Morgoth entrusted the chief of his highest demons to be named 'Gothmog', and you think it is too rough a name?!

Legate of Amon Lanc · 02-17-2007, 02:55 AM

I am not a native English speaker, but I was under the assumption that "rough" means, well, something like a rock, you know. I don't see why Gothmog the Balrog, hard, cruel etc., wouldn't be called like that. But what I intended to say by it... how to say it the best... well, for example: I wouldn't name an Elf "Rughagrog", as well as I wouldn't name an Orc "Lin-Lothiellin". The same way I wouldn't name a black Númenorean Gothmog. This is only my opinion however.

The Sixth Wizard · 02-17-2007, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am not a native English speaker, but I was under the assumption that "rough" means, well, something like a rock, you know. I don't see why Gothmog the Balrog, hard, cruel etc., wouldn't be called like that. But what I intended to say by it... how to say it the best... well, for example: I wouldn't name an Elf "Rughagrog", as well as I wouldn't name an Orc "Lin-Lothiellin". The same way I wouldn't name a black Númenorean Gothmog. This is only my opinion however.

Hmm. Yes, I suppose that makes sense. Although the Mouth of Sauron is a Black Numenorean and 'Sauron' means 'abhorrent'.

mormegil · 11-21-2006, 06:54 PM

I put Nazgul because it does seem most logical that the Lieutenant would be Nazgul as we know that they were present at the battle. If it were of another race I believe Tolkien would have stated.

Bêthberry · 11-21-2006, 08:19 PM

Who is Pat? or should that be what?

mormegil · 11-21-2006, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Who is Pat? or should that be what?

Sorry, it's an old skit from Saturday Night Live. Pat was of unknown gender and the comedy was he/she was put in comical situations relating to guessing gender but nobody ever knew. I thought it rather funny.

Bêthberry · 11-21-2006, 08:53 PM

meh, after the fiasco of how Robin Duke and Tony Rosato were handled, it was all downhill from there.

oh but now what Gothmog lines come to mind . . .

Raynor · 11-22-2006, 01:30 PM

Hammond and Scull note in the LotR Reader's Companion, on page 566, that Gothmog is more likely the second in command to the witch-king, who is sometimes called Morgul-lord. Also, in a rejected version of the battle of the Pellenor Fields, found in HoME VIII, it is stated that all the nazgul fled after their leader was killed (but in LotR, Gothmog brings new troops out of Osgiliath). I believe that he was an orc of some sort; in Myths Transformed, the Men-orcs are said to be "large and cunning", therefore having the "qualities" necessary for leadership.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 01-31-2008, 08:28 PM

Well, I personally think that Gothmog was a man because well it doesn't say, but I think that just fits the role better than an orc or even a Nazgul, because who would've been the commander of Sauron's armies when the Nazgul was away, he most certainly wouldn't trust an orc!

Gordis · 02-01-2008, 08:25 AM

You seem to be under the impression that the WK was away often. It was not so. As far as we know, he permanently stayed in Minas Morgul from TA 2002 till TA 3018. And then Sauron sent him (and the rest of the nazgul) for the Ring - thus the WK was absent from June till November 3018 - only 5 months in a thousand years.
Sauron may have appointed someone as head of the army to replace the WK for these 5 months, but surely before the actual war new arrangements were made.

02-28-2008, 01:52 AM

My vote is for others.

View Poll Results: Which race is Gothmog?
Nazgul	14	32.56%
Man	5	11.63%
Orc	15	34.88%
Other	9	20.93%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

11-20-2006, 05:53 PM	#1
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,657	Gothmog as Pat Ninja raised a question on this thread that I believe would make a fun poll. So what is Gothmog? It's never clearly stated or even hinted as to what race he is. So what do you believe and why? To be clear this is the Gothmog of the third age. __________________ When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators. -- P. J. O'Rourke

11-20-2006, 06:10 PM	#2
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 300	I voted for Gothmog as Nazgul. (which I suppose would also make him Man, of sorts). I know there is no evidence to either support or decry this view of him, but I have never imagined him as anything else in thirty years of reading/re-reading. I was actually surprised that anyone ever considered him to be anything else. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

11-23-2006, 03:52 PM	#7
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,851	I've always just assumed that Gothmog was a Nazgul -- I mean, it's pretty clear, isn't it, that the Nazgul are the worst and most powerful of Sauron's servants. It doesn't make sense that there could be an orc or even a powerful Man who somehow supercedes 8 of the 9...I mean: Orc -- debased and broken slaves; quarrel amongst themselves; stupid. Given the sample orcs we've seen, can you imagine a creature like that ordering around a Nazgul? Men -- better than orcs, but Nazgul are Men corrupted by and enhanced with a Ring of Power: why, if you are a Nazgul, have as your second in command a Ringless Man when you can have a Ringed Man? __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

02-17-2007, 02:55 AM	#10
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,506	I am not a native English speaker, but I was under the assumption that "rough" means, well, something like a rock, you know. I don't see why Gothmog the Balrog, hard, cruel etc., wouldn't be called like that. But what I intended to say by it... how to say it the best... well, for example: I wouldn't name an Elf "Rughagrog", as well as I wouldn't name an Orc "Lin-Lothiellin". The same way I wouldn't name a black Númenorean Gothmog. This is only my opinion however. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

11-23-2006, 10:32 AM	#5
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,921	Even though I agree that it would make some sense that Gothmog was a Nazgul, but, somehow, I can't imagine him as such, just like Legate. He surely was no simple orc, maybe some mighty orc captain, but I doubt it. He would have had the strength and authority needed, but he still would have been no more trustworthy than any orc. I always imagined him as some sort of Black Numenorean, or some other human of a nobler kind long under the power of Sauron. (Earnur? ) What I think we can rule out is that he was something else. I mean, come on, just look at how much joy Tolkien obviously had when he described such things, the description of the Fell Beasts, for example. If Gothmog was something else what we didn't knew then, he would have told us and he would have described him to us, gloomy and vaguely, and the lines would have been little gems of the trilogy.

11-23-2006, 11:12 AM	#6
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,436	Gothmog was portrayed as a Nazgul in a LotR wargame which I used to play many years ago (and which I still have) and I have accordingly thought of him as such ever since. Simple reasoning for a simple soul.

11-21-2006, 06:54 PM	#12
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,657	I put Nazgul because it does seem most logical that the Lieutenant would be Nazgul as we know that they were present at the battle. If it were of another race I believe Tolkien would have stated. __________________ When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators. -- P. J. O'Rourke

11-21-2006, 08:19 PM	#13
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,046	Who is Pat? or should that be what? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

11-21-2006, 08:53 PM	#15
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,046	meh, after the fiasco of how Robin Duke and Tony Rosato were handled, it was all downhill from there. oh but now what Gothmog lines come to mind . . . __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

11-22-2006, 01:30 PM	#16
Raynor Eagle of the Star Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sarmisegethuza Posts: 1,058	Hammond and Scull note in the LotR Reader's Companion, on page 566, that Gothmog is more likely the second in command to the witch-king, who is sometimes called Morgul-lord. Also, in a rejected version of the battle of the Pellenor Fields, found in HoME VIII, it is stated that all the nazgul fled after their leader was killed (but in LotR, Gothmog brings new troops out of Osgiliath). I believe that he was an orc of some sort; in Myths Transformed, the Men-orcs are said to be "large and cunning", therefore having the "qualities" necessary for leadership. __________________ "May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."

01-31-2008, 08:28 PM	#17
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,276	Well, I personally think that Gothmog was a man because well it doesn't say, but I think that just fits the role better than an orc or even a Nazgul, because who would've been the commander of Sauron's armies when the Nazgul was away, he most certainly wouldn't trust an orc! __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

02-01-2008, 08:25 AM	#18
Gordis Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 431	You seem to be under the impression that the WK was away often. It was not so. As far as we know, he permanently stayed in Minas Morgul from TA 2002 till TA 3018. And then Sauron sent him (and the rest of the nazgul) for the Ring - thus the WK was absent from June till November 3018 - only 5 months in a thousand years. Sauron may have appointed someone as head of the army to replace the WK for these 5 months, but surely before the actual war new arrangements were made.

02-28-2008, 01:52 AM	#19
sreeja Guest Posts: n/a	My vote is for others.