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11-08-2005, 01:50 PM | #1 |
Laconic Loreman
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Are you Satisfied?
I really didn't know what to name this, but basically the title says it all (and I'm sure there's been threads like this, but I haven't seen one in a while)...Are you satisfied with the stories The Master (plus his son) gave us on Middle-earth and it's history? Would you have liked to have seen more, perhaps more stories after the War of the Ring (maybe The New Shadow Tolkien started writing then abandoned because he wasn't happy with it?) Or are you satisfied with what we got?
Me, personally, I'm pretty fine with the stories we got. Sure, I would like to probably see more, maybe learn more after the The War of the Ring, but I'm pretty happy with what we got. The reason is, I saw a thread on another forum talking about this new book that should be written based of LOTR called Return of the Ring, or something. It was pretty much a bad idea and from what I read from this person it would have major plotholes, plus I'm sure a sueing from the Tolkien Estate would occur. But anyway, I got to thinking, I don't want to see LOTR (or Tolkien's other books) and the Histories of Middle-earth turn into another Star Wars dilemma. What I mean is, with all these spin off books that are made up, that are junk, and create big plot holes. That's been the biggest dilemma with Star Wars and all the spin-off novels. I would hate to see LOTR and Middle-earth become a Star Wars. So...I guess I'm pleased with what Tolkien has given us. Though sometimes I wish there to be more, it's fine not to have more.... (P.S. Hope I'm not talking in circles )
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11-08-2005, 02:04 PM | #2 |
A Mere Boggart
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My first reaction is that I don't think I could cope with more!
However, I do think that unless Tolkien himself had written some more tales, then it's just something we will never be able to grasp. He always wrote just enough tales. Perhaps it is familiarity which makes me feel comfortable with what there already is. And I bet that explanation was like talking in circles a bit? Besides, there is so much other stuff available, and the more you read it, the more you realise how it can be read in different ways; the level of detail I'm sure is one of the most important things for keeping the Tolkienist hooked. Everyone here seems to have their own 'area of interest', for example we have those into learning the Elven languages, people interested in delving in HoME, those who like to create their own tales leading off from what Tolkien wrote. I completely agree about those spin-off books though. I had the pleasure of sitting back and watching the almighty row of two Star Wars fans a few weeks ago while they argued about whether the spin-offs were 'trash'. I think that's what you get when the film comes first. Thankfully, it's al the other way about with Tolkien!
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11-08-2005, 02:35 PM | #3 |
Dread Horseman
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No way, no way am I satisfied. Ah, to anticipate the release of a new Middle-earth novel, to read the Professor's slyly humorous foreword while I stand in line to buy it, to promise myself to savor it -- only a chapter, two at most, a day -- then greedily devour it over a lazy weekend, these are joys most devoutly to be wished. Rereading Tolkien for the fiftieth time and appreciating all his nuance is all well and good, but there's nothing like being swept off your feet and ravished for the first time by a book like LotR. That's where it's really at. I could definitely wish that Tolkien had had a little bit more Stephen King in his makeup.
But I guess it's a bit of a catch-22. His obsessive working and reworking of a relatively small number of core stories is what made them great. I for one wouldn't mind seeing pros take cracks at new Middle-earth stories, as I mentioned in a thread on copyright somewhere around here. Poor efforts could be safely ignored without tarnishing Tolkien's core legendarium, while good ones would be like a welcome new visit with a cherished old friend. I wish there were more stories. |
11-08-2005, 02:58 PM | #4 |
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
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I wish there were more stories . . .
Me, too! I long for the announcement that in a battered old trunk, hidden away in some dusty attic, old manuscripts will be found. Shameless plug here for a favored Barrow-Downs writer: Having enjoyed Mithadan's "Tales from Tol Eressėa" (the first of which is HERE ), I'd like to see him lend his skills to reworking/completing the unfinished Fourth Age story - The New Shadow. Just a wish . . .
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11-08-2005, 04:14 PM | #5 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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My, some people are greedy indeed. More stories? Im only just starting the Silmarillion and thus have many stories to enjoy still. Im feeling a bit lost as it is.
Honestly, I dont think more is really necessary. Tolkien provided me at least with ample material to muse over for a very long time. If there were more, I would fear to lose myself completely in his already complex and elaborate world. Partly, I agree with Mr. Underhill, there is nothing like reading a book for the very first time (especially Lord of the Rings and this is for me an only too recent memory) and discussing and analyzing will never be as wonderful as just sitting down with a book and allowing yourself to be drawn into a whole new world. On the other hand, there is nothing quite so disappointing as quantity over quality in literature. Its good to leave some things to imagination. Besides, if another secret and hidden manuscript does turn up, you would still be in the same position after finishing that. All things must come to an end eventually. Quote:
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11-08-2005, 04:33 PM | #6 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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There are still some unpublished stories/poems by Tolkien. We haven't yet seen The Fall of Arthur, The New Volsungasaga, or his translation of Beowulf. The recently published Smith Essay contains a wonderful backstory about Smith's grandfather, Rider.
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11-08-2005, 07:47 PM | #7 |
Fair and Cold
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There is a great longing to see some form of continuation of the main plot lines in LotR that comes over me on a regular basis. Some of these characters seem like good friends after all this time. And who could resist another adventure with friends?
These feelings are not born of any rational assessment of Tolkien's works, however, which makes me think that what I'm really longing for is that time I first sat down and read the book; how overwhelmed and excited I was, both by the events in the narrative and events going on around me, what a happy and confusing time it was for me, what great fun I had along the way. Perhaps satisfaction is the wrong word for what I'm seeking. It's something more along the lines of reassurance; the idea that all things I love will continue to live on in one form or another.
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11-09-2005, 12:44 AM | #8 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I'm perfectly satisfied. In fact, I'm happy that Tolkien stopped writing the New Shadow.
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11-09-2005, 08:05 AM | #9 |
Registered User
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Humans are never content...
hehe...
I've reread the Sil, and I just saw something like the Great End wherein Melkor would be released and Turin would sorta avenge himself... ooh, I'd give a lot to have a dose of that one.... i dunno, whatever story I read, I just can't seem to get enough! |
11-09-2005, 09:09 AM | #10 |
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Well, Boromir, this is something of a tough question, you know?
Am I satisfied? No. . .but I never am at the end of a good book. However, should he have written more? I don't think so. If he had, wouldn't we have run up into the same problems? Eventually, we'd have read everything that he wrote, and then, once again, we wouldn't be satisfied. A chap can only write so much in his life time and no more. Middle-Earth has enough history in it to take up the writing of two lifetimes. We should take what the master writer wrote as a gift and cherrish what it is - not what it is not. -- Folwren
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11-09-2005, 09:14 AM | #11 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Tolkien gives us preeminently the experience of story and it is that experience which is essential to the human condition.
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11-09-2005, 04:28 PM | #12 | |
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As you read the book(especially for the first time) you have a very good feeling. You're excited about it, you're into it, you can't wait to get to the next part. But at the end, when it's all over, you feel almost empty(or at least I did). No, I'm not saying I felt like the end wasn't enough. The end was thouroghly complete and I did like the end. But that doesn't make any difference to the way I felt. It's hard to put into words, but it was almost like 'what do I do now'. I was on the Quest with them, I did an amazing thing, but now that it's over, how can you ever go back to normal? I guess I felt almost like Frodo did. There just seems to be this void that the book left in me, kind of like the Ring left in him. I have an analogy for this; the books are like addictive drugs. When you're reading them, you're on a high. It's like you're in another world. But when it's over, you feel like you want more. Going back and reading them again will still get you that high, but not nearly as much. You feel like you need something newer to satisfy your 'fix'. And since there is nothing new, it's almost like a withdrawl. (I guess I'm addicted to LotR! ) But really, it was a bitter-sweet ending for me. I was happy with the ending, but sad that it was the end.
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11-09-2005, 04:50 PM | #13 | ||
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11-09-2005, 05:13 PM | #14 |
A Mere Boggart
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The books aren't like drugs to me. What they are like, is comfort food for my mind, but comfort food which is different in a little way every time. Like my grandmother's roast beef dinners. Sometimes the joint (heh - the beef ) would be a diferent cut, but it was always good.
I don't need there to be any more, because I always find nourishment in what is already there. I like finding a passage I have read many times over and discovering that it leads me down a new path, whether about new ideas or about what other stories may lay behind it. I wonder if this is all part of the 'experience of story' as Bethberry has called it?
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11-09-2005, 07:28 PM | #15 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Good thoughts everyone. I'm just trying to delve into the minds of my fellow downers.
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11-10-2005, 08:23 AM | #16 | |
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11-10-2005, 01:41 PM | #17 |
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I don't want new stories .. I just would like a little more on the ones he left uncompleted ... I would dearly know more of Belfalas and the Lords of Dol Amroth. I think from the scraps revealed in UT and HoME, that they are things JRRT would have investigated further given the chance. I would also like to know what Tolkien decided was the back story of Amroth, more about Elladan and Elrohir and Celebrian...... just little details
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11-10-2005, 02:09 PM | #18 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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So desperate am I for more stories of Middle-Earth that I actively participate in the next best thing to something penned by the professor: the RPG forums!
It would also be nice if he wrote something entitled: "How Legolas, the Round-Eared, Black-Haired Elf, Felt When He Saw the Winged and Capable-of-Flight Balrog."
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11-11-2005, 02:44 AM | #19 | |
A Mere Boggart
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11-11-2005, 03:48 AM | #20 |
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I could never be satisfied
I personally really would not want new books, because especially LOTR is quite complete and is a masterpiece, but as others have said additional details about events and characters in the current books would be nice Of course there is that ever present "Do Balrogs have Wings?" question which we will never truely know the answer too It would be lovely to have a definite answer on that topic, so we could finally put that debate to rest (which will never happen)
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11-11-2005, 08:33 AM | #21 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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no. absolutely not.
me and my brother always talk of how we wish we could totally forget everthing we ever knew about Middle-Earth and Tolkien, and then rediscover the magic all over again. oh well, i guess that is part of the magic, according to teh Professor himself. something about "unatained vistas opeinign befor you" or somthing like that. i hope when we get to heaven, he will have spent his time in a worthwhile fasion.
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11-11-2005, 09:29 AM | #22 | |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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True myth?
At the risk of taking taking this discussion a bit off track.....
Boromir - Great question! Quote:
As much as I love Tolkien, I am in the group of those who fix on the world rather than the author, although it's taken me a long time to get there. When I first read Tolkien in the mid to early sixties, there was no "separate" Middle-earth. There was only a book called the Hobbit and one called the Lord of the Rings. All that changed with the subsequent publications. Frankly, I found them mind boggling. Suddenly, I realized that Tolkien had indeed been crafting not simply a series of books, but a true mythology. Let me clarify one point. I am not saying that there is a strict division between the two camps of 'author versus world'. We can all heartily agree that anything penned by Tolkien is clearly superior to that which is written by anyone else (even PJ ). But, for some of us, the desire to "fill in the holes" is strong and we are willing to contemplate the holes being filled in by other, if lesser, hands. Sometimes I even wonder if our differing attitudes about the movie is partially conditioned by our answer to this question. In any case, when I read what Mithadan or Gil or Pio has written (also check out Dreamdear's story via Google), there are some pretty talented folk out there who seem to be equally obsessed with filling in the picture. Why else would some of us spend so much of our time on RPG's or fanfiction? Surely some of the RPG writers on this site are capable of coming up with worlds of our own, yet we stubbornly continue to come back to Middle-earth. Is it just Tolkien that pulls us in or the world that he has created? Surely it must be a little bit of both. When I say these things, I know I take my life in my hands, since I risk the possibility of being bombed out of the forum by those hurling tomatoes at hearing such heresy. But before you throw up your hands in exasperation, think about this.... If Tolkien really wanted to pen a mythology, how could be be content with his world becoming "static and dead", subject only to the back and forth dialogue of critics? I use the word "critics" in a positive way here. I am not just talking about dunderheads like Bloom but insightful folk like Shippey and Flieger. Still there are limits to what these individuals are dong. At heart, they are scholars; what I really want are storytellers. In my heart of heart, I believe this. If Tolkien's writing is true myth, then it can and will be treated as such. The most comparable example would be the Arthurian legend. Just as a thousand different authors through the centuries have interpreted and re-interpreted the Arthurian legend, so too will writers in ages to come tred softly in Middle-earth and tell their own tales. Are Malory's wonderful stories or those of the Gawaine author in any way lessened by the fact that a talented writer like T.H. White gave us such a beautiful and gently humorous portrait of Arthur in The Once and Future King? I think not. The bald truth is there will be no more tales from the author's pen unless those retellings happen in the world beyond (one can only hope!) But eventually copyright will go away. If Tolkien's books are just novels and no more than that, they will remain closed and dead and a little dusty. But if Tolkien has truly written a myth, one that can stand with the other great myths of mankind, then it is inevitable that others will follow the road to Middle-earth just as they have followed into other worlds and ages. Everyone on this forum will likely be dead and gone by the time this actually happens, but my guess is that we are seeing the tiny beginnings of that, especially with the essentially "folk" nature of the internet that has encouraged such a proliferation of tales, both the good and the bad. I wish I could be alive to see it happen. Now, let the tomatoes come.... Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 11-11-2005 at 09:35 AM. |
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11-11-2005, 11:32 AM | #23 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Why God, why couldn't someone ask Tolkien if balrogs had wings or not?!
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11-11-2005, 11:37 AM | #24 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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11-11-2005, 12:35 PM | #25 | ||
Dread Horseman
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11-11-2005, 12:39 PM | #26 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Am I satisfied? Yes, but more so no.
Yes, because from his own hand, Tolkien gave so much. No, because I like hobbits best and since Tolkien thought different, there aren't enough stories and written histories of them. I understand what is being said about Tolkien's work not being turned into a "Star Wars' spin-off dilemma, but I am willing to give an author a chance to get me back to "Middle-Earth". Hopefully, it is with the best intent to write something worthwile and not just to sell a book.
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11-11-2005, 01:30 PM | #27 | |
Laconic Loreman
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11-12-2005, 05:48 AM | #28 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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And what is particularly attractive about the Professor's work is, as you say, that the river can ripple in so many different ways as it polishes our stoney minds. The Legendarium is not a closed system, as Mr. Underhill points out with his quotations from Tolkien's letters and Child with her very apt comparison to the Arthurian legends--although I'm not sure it is necessarily necessary to call Middle-earth 'true myth' for this to be so. But isn't it the mark of the really astute performer to leave his audience always already wanting more? Or the fan dancer for that matter!
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11-12-2005, 07:14 AM | #29 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Something else that occurs to me is that both TH and LotR were written for Tolkien's children -- he had a specific audience in mind. Any later works would not have been so directly addressed and perhaps would have suffered. Still want to have confirmation of the winged Balrog though...
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11-12-2005, 07:24 PM | #30 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Ah, to be satisfied with such wonderful stories... A part of me will always crave more and more information, and that cannot be helped. I do, however, think Tolkien stopped in a good place. There may be loopholes, and unanswered questions, and so many more stories that could have happened... but that's what forums and fanfiction are for.
Besides, there are moe than enough stories to read and re-read, because if you think you got it all the first ten times, you are very, very wrong. He wrote in such a way that the story only becomes more complex and intriguing with each time. Read them all fifty times? I'm willing to bet you missed something.
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11-12-2005, 11:59 PM | #31 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Ah, it's been a long time since I've last contributed to the Downs. Anyway...
For me, I'm satisfied with the stories- oh yes, most definitely. However, I too would have liked to have read more about Middle-Earth and it's Peoples, because I'm one of those people who love depth and detail; something rich and abundant throughout all Tolkien's writings. The way Tolkien covered practically every little thing that he could about Middle-Earth (I mean, come on, he created a world here) was very satisfying for me, yet inevitably there was always going to be some things that could not be explained in such depth or in one lifetime. For example, I would've liked to hear more about Oropher, but since he isn't really relevant to the plot of LoTR (though his death does explain some things about Thranduil and the Silvan Elves), I wasn't too dismayed and insisting on a novel-length back story of his life. I would, however, have liked to read more about Gil-Galad, whom I thought was not given as much emphasis as other 'important' characters (important in terms of his position as High King of the Noldor- not the same importance as, for instance, Sam, in terms of the actual story). Anyway, I fear I diverge. When reading HoME, I was particularly struck by the Prophecy of Mandos, where Turin kills Morgoth with Gurthang and Feanor yields the Silmarils to Yavanna. I was satisfied in terms of 'closure' and knowing how the ultimate story ends, yet I was also dissatisfied - I know, weird - at how it ended and felt that if it was included, despite being poetically just and a good ending, it would just take away from The Sil's story just that little bit. Quote:
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11-13-2005, 04:23 AM | #32 |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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But how can we make a judgment on The New Shadow as it now stands? The one thing we know is that Tolkien's work generally underwent a myriad of changes. The "original" LotR with its hobbit guide in boots (Trotter) and a character like Bingo is light years away from what eventually emerged.
Given the way Tolkien approached writing, I don't honestly think we can make any realistic judgment on the shadow . If it underwent as many changes as the early chapters of LotR, it might have turned out very differently, with a much "higher" tone. I just wish I knew what the author had in the back of his mind when he began to write those pages. Fordim - I'm not in total agreement with your assessment of the later Tolkien. I find the character of Andreth amazing as well as her discussion with Finrod. What I would give for the tale of Andreth the Wise Woman's failed relationship with her beloved Elf! She is potentially the strongest female character that Tolkien developed. I would love to have more.....
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11-13-2005, 12:49 PM | #33 |
Dead Serious
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I am satisfied with the stories as they stand.
What I would like is more information... I must confess, I am an Appendices fan. I love encyclopaedic collections of information and scholarly articles and geneaologies and timelines.... It is stuff like this that really makes me like the HoME, and its stuff like this that I would wish to have more of.
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11-13-2005, 01:25 PM | #34 | |
A Mere Boggart
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I thought the The New Shadow was interesting, but was only a curiosity; I got the sense from it that Tolkien really did not have his heart in the writing of Fourth Age stories and that he found the prospect quite depressing. After all, what could they be about? New evils arising? After LotR, such new evils might seem like a huge let down. They could not be as evil as those deeds wrought by Morgoth and Sauron, as it might make the central tale of LotR seem a bit pointless and the deeds less heroic, and if the evildoings in such tales were less evil, then likewise these tales would not be quite so thrilling. The Fourth Age was the age of Men. Elves and Dwarves were diminishing, and Men were forbidden from entering The Shire. The Istari had gone. The Orcs were being hunted down. As far as we know, the Oliphaunts were all wiped out. No, I'm sorry to say that the Fourth Age just couldn't cut it in comparison to those Ages which had gone before. There are a lot of books, films, comedy series and so on where I feel like I would love to see more, but in many cases being saturated with more and more 'product' just results in diminishing quality. If they had made more episodes of Fawlty Towers, Father Ted and The Royle Family then I think each series would have got less and less amusing. You only have to look at soap operas or series such as The Wheel of Time, which all seem interminable with the same plots being revised in the case of soaps (how many times have Ken and Deirdre split up?) to see why more is not necessarily A Good Thing.
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05-31-2006, 11:55 AM | #35 |
Animated Skeleton
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More,more,more!!!
The more Tolkien and Middle Earth stories i get,the more I want!!! I would have loved it if the "Lord of the Rings" hadn`t been a trilogy but a thirteenology!!!
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05-31-2006, 12:02 PM | #36 | |
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Of course I would love to see more.
I want to know more about the Haradrim, the Variags, the Khandish men, the Easterlings, the peoples of Aman, and the lifestyles of the orcs of Mordor. I wish I could have seen in more detail the City of the Corsairs, Dol Amroth, Pelargir, the inside of Barad Dur, the inside of Minas Morgul, and the great strongholds and sights of Aman and the rest of Arda. There was so much left unexplained...
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06-01-2006, 03:22 AM | #37 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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I would have liked a book on the Fourth Age, etc. Though I will say I am satisfied with the books we have now.
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06-01-2006, 01:25 PM | #38 |
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As this thread asks for opinions, not actual discussion of the books, I'm moving it to the Novices and Newcomers forum, where similar topics have found their home. Please continue reading and posting there - thanks!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
06-01-2006, 02:14 PM | #39 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Crickhallow
Posts: 247
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I am completely satisfied with the stories that Tolkien and his son have given us, and no I don't think there needs to be anymore Lord of the Rings books.
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King of the Dead: The dead do not suffer the living to pass. Aragorn: You will suffer me. |
06-01-2006, 03:14 PM | #40 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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I know exactly what you meanBoromir.
That's what sets Tolkien apart from the 'trashy fantasy' as I dub it that emerged after his works and into the present. The problem is is when in the plot, more complications keep arising. Like consider just the six Star Wars movies. Historically and plotwise, you could be satisfied, because Tolkien didnt go back and give more and more history that eventually might have explained some civil war in Rhun, and speculation is what we are used to. I would love to have more information on the other Dwarven Lines, but that will never happen, because even if C Tolien made some it wouldnt feel right, If you get me. It would have had to have been done in the original. Going back to SW, you would think after the dissolution of the Empire and destruction of the Emperor and Darth Vader would have been it. That equals the Downfall of Barad-dur. Now look what happens when you add more information that are too anticlimatic after the sixth movie. Consider if that had happened to Tolien. Luckily Tolkien wasnt as bough out as he might have been in corporate America. (and movies in general have more media) ________ Vaporizers Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-04-2011 at 12:00 AM. |
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