Male elves giving up immortality? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lothiriel Silmarien · 05-26-2002, 05:51 PM

I've thought about this for a while, and most of you may think this stupid, but did any male elf give up his immortality for a women/non-elf? I've read practically all of Tolkien's books, but I don't think Tolkien ever made a male elf give up his immortality. Why is that? Were the female elves so pretty that the male elves never wanted to marry a non-elf. I don't know. But I know that an elf doesn't have to give up her/his immortality right away if they marry, there may be certain exceptions, but I was just wondering what everyones point of view would be for this. That is if anyone replies. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Joy · 05-26-2002, 06:05 PM

Lothiriel, I am not sure, but take a look at the post in BOOKS - Elves loving Men. This might explain somethings.

Lothiriel Silmarien · 05-27-2002, 11:38 AM

Thanks Joy [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Aramacil · 05-27-2002, 02:21 PM

.....so? and what is the answer?
I'd like to now

Lothiriel Silmarien · 05-27-2002, 02:23 PM

I still don't know, trying though!

Joy · 05-27-2002, 02:28 PM

Let's go back to Elros, brother of Elrond.

Both were considered Half-Elven, so they had the choice as to whether be Elven or Edain, Elves or Men.

When did Elros make that decesion? Was it before he married a mortal woman, or after??

Gorothlammothiel · 05-27-2002, 02:30 PM

I could be wrong but i remember reading somewhere that Elrond had a brother, Elros and they were both given the choice of choosing the immortal life of an elf, or not. Elrond chose his path as his parents and chose immortal life,and his brother chose to become men and to become mortal? Thats was why Elrond gave his children the choice. I don't think it was for love though, so maybe that wasn't so relevant as it first seemed, sorry [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Gorothlammothiel ]

Aramacil · 05-27-2002, 02:34 PM

but how do you become mortal when your a male-elf?

Joy · 05-27-2002, 02:52 PM

Anyone who was Half-elven, those with one mortal parent and one immoratal parent, could chose which the became.

Elrond and Elros' parents were Eärendil and Elwing.

Eärendil was half-elven becase his father, Tuor, was a Man (Edain) and his mother, Idril, was the Daughter of Turgon of Gondolin.

Elwing was also Half-Elven. Her father was Dior, the son of Beren and Lùthien. Her mother, Nimloth, was a Elven Maiden of Doriath.

A note on Tuor and Idril Celebrindal - It seems that Tuor - a Man of the House of Hador - was given the choice to sail West with his wife Idril. Tuor was a messenger of Ulmo, so this might have been the reason he could sail over.

Lothiriel Silmarien · 05-27-2002, 07:13 PM

OOOOOOOHHHHHHHH, so Elros is one male elf who married a non elf women. Ok, thank ya, I forgot that one!

Elrian · 05-27-2002, 09:37 PM

The Silmarillion never mentions who Elros' wife was, like Dior his wife could very well have been Elven. There was never any mention of a marriage between a male Elf and a female Edain. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Joy · 05-27-2002, 11:13 PM

Check this Link out. Just got it from Elrian. It deals with Elven and Edain Marriage. Very interesting thoughts.

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ]

Joy · 05-28-2002, 12:28 AM

Elrian - Concerning Elros's marriage, I would think that he married an Edain, for if he would have married an Elf, would not Vardamir have the choice of immortality vs mortality?

By his choice of being mortal and marrying a mortal, thus all his line would be mortal.

The same goes for Arwen and Aragorn. She chose mortality and Aragorn, being Edain, was mortal, so therefore Eldarion had no choice but to be mortal.

Elrian · 05-28-2002, 12:37 AM

No, not necessarily, especially since he became a King of Men, and so would his heirs.
Also since he chose to be mortal he was counted among Men, not Elves.

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

05-26-2002, 05:51 PM	#1
Lothiriel Silmarien Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 829	Male elves giving up immortality? I've thought about this for a while, and most of you may think this stupid, but did any male elf give up his immortality for a women/non-elf? I've read practically all of Tolkien's books, but I don't think Tolkien ever made a male elf give up his immortality. Why is that? Were the female elves so pretty that the male elves never wanted to marry a non-elf. I don't know. But I know that an elf doesn't have to give up her/his immortality right away if they marry, there may be certain exceptions, but I was just wondering what everyones point of view would be for this. That is if anyone replies. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~~ ~~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page

05-26-2002, 06:05 PM	#2
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Lothiriel, I am not sure, but take a look at the post in BOOKS - Elves loving Men. This might explain somethings. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

05-27-2002, 11:38 AM	#3
Lothiriel Silmarien Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 829	Thanks Joy [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~~ ~~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page

05-27-2002, 02:21 PM	#4
Aramacil Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 131	.....so? and what is the answer? I'd like to now __________________ "I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."

05-27-2002, 02:23 PM	#5
Lothiriel Silmarien Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 829	I still don't know, trying though! __________________ Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~~ ~~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page

05-27-2002, 02:28 PM	#6
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Let's go back to Elros, brother of Elrond. Both were considered Half-Elven, so they had the choice as to whether be Elven or Edain, Elves or Men. When did Elros make that decesion? Was it before he married a mortal woman, or after?? __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

05-27-2002, 02:30 PM	#7
Gorothlammothiel Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sitting in front of my preferred world.... Posts: 254	I could be wrong but i remember reading somewhere that Elrond had a brother, Elros and they were both given the choice of choosing the immortal life of an elf, or not. Elrond chose his path as his parents and chose immortal life,and his brother chose to become men and to become mortal? Thats was why Elrond gave his children the choice. I don't think it was for love though, so maybe that wasn't so relevant as it first seemed, sorry [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Gorothlammothiel ]

05-27-2002, 02:34 PM	#8
Aramacil Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 131	but how do you become mortal when your a male-elf? __________________ "I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."

05-27-2002, 02:52 PM	#9
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Anyone who was Half-elven, those with one mortal parent and one immoratal parent, could chose which the became. Elrond and Elros' parents were Eärendil and Elwing. Eärendil was half-elven becase his father, Tuor, was a Man (Edain) and his mother, Idril, was the Daughter of Turgon of Gondolin. Elwing was also Half-Elven. Her father was Dior, the son of Beren and Lùthien. Her mother, Nimloth, was a Elven Maiden of Doriath. A note on Tuor and Idril Celebrindal - It seems that Tuor - a Man of the House of Hador - was given the choice to sail West with his wife Idril. Tuor was a messenger of Ulmo, so this might have been the reason he could sail over. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

05-27-2002, 07:13 PM	#10
Lothiriel Silmarien Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 829	OOOOOOOHHHHHHHH, so Elros is one male elf who married a non elf women. Ok, thank ya, I forgot that one! __________________ Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~~ ~~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page

05-27-2002, 09:37 PM	#11
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	The Silmarillion never mentions who Elros' wife was, like Dior his wife could very well have been Elven. There was never any mention of a marriage between a male Elf and a female Edain. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

05-27-2002, 11:13 PM	#12
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Check this Link out. Just got it from Elrian. It deals with Elven and Edain Marriage. Very interesting thoughts. [ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ] __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

05-28-2002, 12:28 AM	#13
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Elrian - Concerning Elros's marriage, I would think that he married an Edain, for if he would have married an Elf, would not Vardamir have the choice of immortality vs mortality? By his choice of being mortal and marrying a mortal, thus all his line would be mortal. The same goes for Arwen and Aragorn. She chose mortality and Aragorn, being Edain, was mortal, so therefore Eldarion had no choice but to be mortal. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

05-28-2002, 12:37 AM	#14
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	No, not necessarily, especially since he became a King of Men, and so would his heirs. Also since he chose to be mortal he was counted among Men, not Elves. [ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ] __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~