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Old 09-01-2006, 01:40 AM   #1
Arathul
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Reason Behind The Decline Of Arnor And The Rise Of Gondor.

The keeping of the line of Isildur pure and unbroken allowed King Elessar to reunite the thrones of Arnor and Gondor in T.A. 3019. However, my opinion for this is that the fall of Arnor was directly related to the Northern Numenorean’s refusal to intermarry and intermingle with indigenous Men of Middle-earth.

To make a case for this idea, I need to show that:
A) The Northern Line of Isildur did not intermarry with non-Numenoreans.
B) The Southern Line of Anarion did intermarry with non-Numenoreans.
C) The intermingling saved Gondor
D) The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor.

The Northern Line did not intermarry
This is fairly straightforward and easy to confirm. Aragorn, the last of the purely Northern Line, is described as “the thirty-ninth Heir of Isildur in the direct line.”(1) Gandalf(2) and Elrond(3) confirm this as well. “It was the pride and wonder of the Northern Line that, though their power departed and their people dwindled, through all the many generations the succession was unbroken from father to son.”(4) If there still is any doubt of the lineage of the women these sons married, they are laid to rest with an account of the parents of King Elessar. His father Arathorn was directly descended from Isildur, of course, and his mother was Gilraen the Fair, daughter of Dirhael, who was descended from Aranarth, the First Chieftan, who was himself descended from Isildur.(5) The only trace of non-Numenorean blood that can be traced would be Arvedui’s wife Firiel, who was the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor. Ondoher traced his lineage back to King Eldacar, who was half Rhonovianian.(6)

The Southern Line did intermarry
This is also easy to confirm. A great deal of information is given regarding Valacar’s marriage to Vidumavi, princess of Rhovanion. Their son, Eldacar (Vinitharya), came to the throne of Gondor and survived the Kinstrife. Yet other Numenoreans in Gondor had previously intermarried: “For the high men of Gondor already looked askance at the northmen among them; and it was a thing unheard of before that the heir to the crown, or any son of the King, should wed one of lesser and alien race.”(7) More explicitly, “after the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men.”(8)

The intermingling saved Gondor
This is the first of my ideas that may need some hard proofs to convince. To begin with, we know that war never ceased on their borders.(9) Gondor was mostly victorious, although their power waxed in the eleventh century. By the thirteenth, when the Kinstrife erupted over Eldacar, Gondor had faced two centuries of slow decline. Gondor never fully recovered from the Kinstrife. Many of the Dunedain were slain, and some fled to Umbar and Harad because they refused to acknowledge Eldacar. There were many Numenoreans killed or departed, and the records clearly state that “the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion.”(10)

Gondor clearly needed replenishing, because in the years that followed great evils rapidly followed upon the heels of one another. Plague, wars with Umbar, and the invasions of the Wainriders beset Gondor from the fifteenth to the nineteenth centuries. Things reached a low point in the twentieth, when the general Earnil of the Southern Army alone saved Gondor from being overwhelmed from the East and South.

Throughout this long time period the descendents of the Kings had become few. Some were killed in the ceaseless wars, some did not marry, some fled to Umbar out of fear, and some “renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Numenorean blood.”(11)

This intermingling had two effects. First, it ended up destroying the Southern Line. No claimant of pure blood could be found. Second, it saved the nation of Gondor. I have already quoted the “replenishment” statement. Gondor needed immigration and new blood to survive the constant threats and attacks. Immigration came from the North, as we know, but there was also intermingling that had gone on in Lamedon and other provinces of Gondor that were on the southern edge of the White Mountains.(12) Without this help and intermingling, there was little chance that the Exiles could have survived.

The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor
The Numenoreans in the North had always been in lesser number than in the South. Before the Drowning, the colonies of the Faithful were at Tharbad in the North and at Pelargir and the surrounding areas in the South.(13) Pelargir was the main haven, as is clearly stated. During the Drowning, four ships of Elendil came to the North while five ships of Isildur and Anarion came to the South.(14) Moreover, after the Fall of Sauron and the End of the Second Age, a great deal of the Northern Dunedain were slain at the Gladden Fields.(15)

The Northern Kings therefore ruled over a lesser proportion of Numenoreans and a greater proportion of indigenous Men of Middle-earth, or Men of the Twilight. There had been Men in Eriador since the Elder Days, and the Numenoreans claimed lordship over them.(16) Since the Northern Dunedain were fewer in number, it is conceivable that they were more jealous of their lineage, and had been less likely to intermarry with those of non-Numenorean descent, and this may help explain why the Northern Line survived three thousand years.

It may also be the reason why the nation of Arnor fell. Arnor was beset from Angmar, as Gondor was from the East and South. However, Arnor never attempted to ask for aid, as Gondor did multiple times. Annuminas never attempted to contact the Men of Wilderland, as Minas Tirith did. It may have been impossible, as the Mountains were held by Angmar. Men to the South of Eriador were hostile to the Numenoreans.(17) The only help that was available was the remnant of the Noldor in Rivendell or the Havens. Not only were these Elves greatly diminished, the Elves had never intermingled with Men in any lasting form.

Arnor was alone and beset by external and internal calamities. The plague rolled through Eriador, the witch king attacked it from the East, and the sons of Earendur split Arnor into three because of “dissention.” This in and of itself may be the greatest calamity to befall the North, yet unfortunately the Professor gives us only a fragment of a sentence to explain it. Arnor faced nothing worse than Gondor did -–in fact Gondor may have faced worse challenges. Yet Gondor had something Arnor did not – the ability and the willingness to ask for immigration and outside aid from Men of non-Numenorean descent. This was the final ultimate cause of the fall of Arnor.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:32 AM   #2
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Old 08-31-2010, 12:12 AM   #3
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Great essay Arathul! Too bad the only reply so far was crap.

With the Northern Dunedain not intermingling with the locals of lesser blood, the question of numbers of men and women comes into play. How many were there at say, the height of Arnor in Elendil's day? Since its given that there was a gradual diminishing in Arnor, from internal dissension and outside forces to the point that the ruling seat was moved from the lake-shore city of Annuminas to the fortress city of Fornost, and the kingdom of Arnor was divided into three in the year 863 of the 3rd Age, with Rhuadur to the east being probably the most mixed population with the hillmen. Cardolan was spread over the rollling southern lands to Tharbad, and was primarily Dunedain though they likely had dealings with the north reach of Dunland. Arthedain remained the strongest state and likely had the most Dunedain population. All three borders met at Amon Sul, or Weathertop, where one of the powerful Palantiri was ensconced.

The north did not have a strong race of men outside the Dunedain which to even really consider intermingling with. The Northmen of Rhovanion were a proud and fierce people in their own right, and probably the the strongest men friendly to the west without being directly from any of the three houses of the Edain. I have to agree that this intermingling in Gondor, despite causing the Kin-Strife, did lead to a strengthening of Gondor with greater numbers of population, and therefore, soldiers to hold the line on Mordor, at the cost of length of lifespan.

Great subject this! I need to finish my tale of the Kin Strife...

Just an informational edit here to inform everyone here that this essay was written by 'Thorin' on Minas Tirith in September 2003. I didn't say anything a few years back when I bumped this as I was hoping there would be more discussion on it. There was, which is a good thing. At the time I let Thorin know that I read and commented on his work he copy/pasted here, assuming that Arathul was his name on this board. It was not as he said he had never registered on Barrow Downs. Thorin was irritated a bit that his post was copy/pasted from another board, but chuffed that there was more discussion on the topic.

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Old 09-09-2010, 08:03 PM   #4
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While I don't necessarily disagree with your contention, I do think that was only one factor of many.

I think the most important reason for the decline of Arnor was its poor strategic situation. It was a large, flat and virtually indefensible country with a sparse population that was spread too thinly over its territory. I think it would have struggled mightily even without the external pressure of Angmar.

Gondor, by comparison, was more favorably located and more defensible, even in spite of its long stretches of coastland.
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:11 PM   #5
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I think the most important reason for the decline of Arnor was its poor strategic situation. It was a large, flat and virtually indefensible country with a sparse population that was spread too thinly over its territory. I think it would have struggled mightily even without the external pressure of Angmar.
Without the Witch-king though, who would Arnor have "struggled mightily" against? Those hill-men in Rhudaur? I don't see them as any threat to Arnor without the WK.

And I think they could have mastered Angmar , or at least held out much longer than they did, without their infighting.
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:30 PM   #6
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The tendency to infight and localize is what they would and did struggle against.

A point validated by the fact that Arnor already had fragmented before the appearance of the Witch-king. Arnor broke up in 861. The Witch-king didn't appear until 1300.

Without the Witch-king perhaps the situation would have stabilized into three successor states, but Arnor as a whole was doomed from the beginning because of geography and demographics.

Makes one wonder if things up north were really so hunky-dory during the Fourth Age after all...
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:58 PM   #7
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Makes one wonder if things up north were really so hunky-dory during the Fourth Age after all...
I'm not very optimistic about the restored North Kingdom.

Dúnedain of Gondor would have been needed to kick-start growth in Arnor, and Gondor itself was a shadow of its former population by the Fourth Age. I'd wonder how many Gondorians would actually have been willing to uproot themselves from the only life they'd ever known to go north and deal with the cold, snow, and a long-forsaken kingdom.

I think it's more likely the Men who ended up being the majority in Eriador were those with their origins in Bree or Dunland. I just can't see Arnor ever regaining its first-millenium Third Age glory, or even being on par with Fourth Age Gondor.
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:43 PM   #8
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The tendency to infight and localize is what they would and did struggle against.
That is, as I've also thought, the greatest factor to Arnor's decline and Gondor remaining relatively strong. Aside from the Witch-King doing lots of damage himself, and Gondor not having to deal with Sauron for thousands of years yet.

Once Arnor decided to divide politically, they were made weaker. It makes the successful "divide and conquer" strategy a lot easier for the Witch-King. If they could somehow unite forces against him, they may have been able to salvage some sort of a kingdom. But once splitting, and the infighting between Rhudaur and Cardolan over possession of certain lands, that spells disaster.

Now Gondor underwent similar infighting in the Kin-stife, and I also think it's shear size was an advantage. It was made weaker in the Kin-strife, but Gondor as a single politcal entity remained in tact. Castamir wanted all of Gondor, Eldacar said no. Civil war ensues, Gondor loses some of it's lands, but in the end this is how things in the world usually get decided. Gondor never broke apart and decided to divide up into separate kingdoms, they were just slightly weakened by losing mostly Umbar and creating future enemies.

Also, even after the end of Anarion's line in Gondor, this is where I give a lot of credit to Mardil and the following ruling Stewards. They maintained control and were accepted to rule in the King's place until the King returns. Having that type of political stability is priceless in keeping a strong, long-lasting kingdom.
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Old 09-11-2010, 04:08 PM   #9
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I'm not very optimistic about the restored North Kingdom...
Perhaps not, but I think there are two factors that improve their chances.

First, there would now be a sense that they were one again and so be more able to share ideas, teaching, talents, etc. That had been largely lacking since the fall of Isuldur. They were no longer "The Two Kingdoms".

Related to that, while I agree few would want to "be" uprooted just to repopulate the north, it is entirely possible, that as the population grows in the south, more people will be attracted by the wide open lands available in the north - just as the American West was settled (tho without the dangers posed by American Indians). Which leads to the next factor ...

Second, With the fall of Sauron, the evil things that made the wild dangerous would be reduced and the population *COULD* again begin growing in the north (as well as in the south).

As Gandalf told Butterbur,
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There will be comings and goings, and the evil things will be driven out of the wastelands. Indeed the waste in time will be waste no longer, and there will be people and fields where once there was wilderness.
Granted, that's an anticipation rather than a formal prophecy - but it does give a picture of the possibilities.
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Old 09-18-2010, 02:31 PM   #10
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The demographics of Eriador is of endless fascination, and in the earlier half of the Third Age, it probably had a more notable population base than we see in Frodo's time, but even that reflects somewhat recent declines in southeast Eriador and North-South interchange, with the ultimate end of Tharbad and displacement of people, as witnessed by the recent refugees in Bree. These I attribute to the policies of Saruman over a generation or so, in building up a sort of power base east and north of the Isen, bolstering the strength of the less civilized human elements, with feelers all the way to the Shire. A parallel being the hill-men of northeast Eriador, under the tutelage of Angmar, but ultimately wiped out with it.

Ultimately, the Kingdom of Arnor never enjoyed the population base, dynamics and resilience of Gondor, which had seemingly much heavier Numenorean settlement and denser indigenous peoples, so that from the beginning, it had the ability to support a number of cities and continuous areas of settlement, and to fight and grow. With these Southmen and later influxes of Northmen, the Dunedain of the South did intermingle, but reflective of Faramir's commentary, this was both inevitable and a blessing, however, mixed.

At some time or another Elves and Numenoreans can enjoy population spurts, such that by the WotR, mostly non-eldarin Elves are a rather dominant population group in Rhovanian. Ironically, long life seems sooner or later to work against sustained population growth, and in many ways, Tolkien's underlying and very Christian point is how the longer lifespans and ennobling of the Numenorean beyond the norm of men was a mistake, however, marvelous the achievements and potential for wisdom could be.

So, while intermingling is clearly portrayed as a saving grace for Gondor, I would not say that it is so in purely population terms. Human populations can bounce back from civil wars and such very easily if the conditions are right. What intermingling did for Gondor more than anything was to introduce fresh blood and clean out tendencies for decadence and arrogance.

In the North, the Dunedain may have represented a larger share of the population, but both they and the other men of the region were much smaller in number—say, less than one-tenth that of Gondor—especially after the War of the Last Alliance and the Disaster of the Gladden Fields.

Besides Breelanders and such, the only other people or allies that we know of were of Edainic, probably Beorian-related, decent. Of those remaining in Arthedain and Cardolan in the Third Age, I would submit that they did intermingle and were assimilated among the Dunedain of the North: although this evidently did not really include the royal line, which allowed for a truly remarkable person like Aragorn to arise.

But the people of Arnor in general were always simply just too thin on the ground to not decline in the face of Angmar and pestilence. Intermingling, had there been sufficient numbers with which to interbreed, might have helped, and early on, the Dunedain there were prone to the same excesses and self-inflicted sources of decline that occurred with the Kingdom of Gondor, but it was a ultimately a story of strategic vulnerabilities, bad fortune, and the numbers game working against Arnor.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:56 AM   #11
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Some of the decline may have been due to
* intermarrying, but who were they to marry [besides other Dunedain?] Breelanders? The culture's would have been very different in most cases. Other than the breelanders, the only Men north of Rohan we hear about are dunlendings [hillybilly breelanders more or less - they were both descended from the 'free edain ' of old, not from the numenoreans, and some scattered fisherman on the tip of one of the rivers.

We are never told of ANY population centers with non-Dunedain in the north other than Bree. I imagine Tharbad was a 'greater-Bree' in it's day. A meeting place for couriers North and South, the civilized Dunlanders, the remote fisherman, etc. Tharbad would have been, as long as 'Arnor' maintained it, the 'face' of the north kingdoms to the outside world.

*The Witch King - an heir of isildur [presumably having or knowing of the ring], was an especial reason for targeting the north kingdom. That and hatred of Elrond/Rivendell. This constant low-level warfare for how many hundreds of years? Kept a tap on the vigor of Arthedain and Cardolan. Who did remain allies w/ Rivendell and the Havens.

*Colder, harder lands populate more slowly than the bright sunny south!

As for who would [from Gondor] want to repopulate the North?

2nd sons of nobility who would not become minor Lords in their own right in the South spring immediately to mind.

Do not discount the fascination for the southerners that the mysterious homes of High King Aragorn and Queen Arwen would have had. Not too mention fascination with the Shire, Rivendell etc. In short Gondorians would have learned they [and Rohan] were NOT the only 'civilized' Men left.


So I think the days of hope, expansion, etc after the fall of Sauron would have fueled repopulated Arnor, for a while...

And what better way to get the attention of the new king than to volunteer to repopulate Arnor?
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:46 AM   #12
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Unfortunately I'm coming into this thread a bit late, and only have had time to skim a few replies.

Has anyone mentioned Gondor's favorable geography? It is ringed by mountains, which act both as a barrier against invasion and a source for rivers. Combined with the rivers, the mild climate would allow the land to yield excellent harvests.
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Old 09-21-2010, 07:40 AM   #13
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I do think lindil has a good point about motivations for people to move north after the war. Its a pity that Elessar banned outsiders from the Shire. It could have become a Middle-earth Disneyland and tourist Mecca.

Or...maybe its a good thing Elessar banned outsiders from the Shire to prevent it from becoming a Middle-earth Disneyland and tourist Mecca.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:46 AM   #14
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Unfortunately I'm coming into this thread a bit late, and only have had time to skim a few replies.

Has anyone mentioned Gondor's favorable geography? It is ringed by mountains, which act both as a barrier against invasion and a source for rivers. Combined with the rivers, the mild climate would allow the land to yield excellent harvests.
Let's not go painting Arnor as a barren wasteland, though--comparable to Greenland in Eric the Red's day. The Shire clearly had a mild climate--with excellent farmland, rivers, little snow, high produce. While it is true that the North Farthing was a bit cooler, I don't think it was far enough north to make a great difference, nor that Annúminas and Fornost were so much farther as to make them utterly uninhabitable.

In any case, even if the re-settlers of the 4th Age were deterred from going as far as Annúminas, there is no reason they could not have focused resettlement on Cardolan--at the latitude of the southern parts of the Shire and comparable and nearer to the presumed Dúnedainic settlements in the Angle--or even in southern Cardolan, about Tharbad. We know that Aragorn re-established Annúminas as Arnor's capital, but we don't know how much of the incoming settlers went that far north--Gandalf seems to imply to Butterbur that this would happen, but perhaps it was merely the increase in business at Bree that would follow, as the way station on the way to Annúminas and the Shire.

Indeed, it would make good sense to me for Eriador to have been resettled from the South. Tharbad and the coast would have had better opportunities for trade, thanks to the sea, and Gondorian settlers might have found the land just the other side of Andrast more familiar and homelike--and also less of a distant journey. Tharbad also continues to make great sense as the meeting of the nations--now including Rohan as well as Gondor and Arnor.

What's more, with Rohan now in the picture (the Éotheod did not settle the Mark until a few hundred years after Arnor fell), I do not see the Dúnedain wishing to lose control of Minihiriath, as both kingdoms experienced a population boom. I think they would have preferred to see Rohan expand past the Anduin than over the Isen. What's more, southern Cardolan was proximate to Dunland. Even granting the favourable relations between the Dúnedain, on the one hand, and Rohan and Dunland on the other during Elessar's reign, it would have made sense for the Reunited Kingdom to have put its energy first on repopulating the crucial central region--which, in any case, might have been more favorable to Gondorian settlers.
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Old 09-21-2010, 02:42 PM   #15
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Let's not go painting Arnor as a barren wasteland, though--comparable to Greenland in Eric the Red's day.
That wasn't my intention. But Eriador/Arnor didn't enjoy the natural barriers behind which Gondor endured.

Just looking at the map Gondor seems one, tough nut to crack. Combine that with the climate and rivers, and it seems no wonder that it was able to last so long.
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