Morgoth and Doriath

[Raynor]

By the fact that Morgoth "sought most" to set Hurin against Thingol and Melian.

Please, the quote you are apparently referring to mentions that Morgoth distorted the facts concerning Thingol and Melian, not what you have stated.

Actually, though, it would seem more likely that one of the Valar would have enough foresight to know events would occur as they did, than that he would randomly send Hurin out and hope for the best (worst), but something in between seems more likely.

Again, the purpose of sending out Hurin to further his hatred between Men and Elves; a pretty general purpose. As far as foreseeing, it is based on knowledge of the music, of which Morgoth did not have much, as he was too busied at that time with his own distorted theme (even Sauron had more knowledge in that respect), and more less so in terms of the Eruhini.

[Rikae]

No, the quote says what it says - again:

In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them.

and makes it quite clear he had more than simply a general purpose. Your quote implies that only taken out of context.
But you may now have the last word, since you've successfully killed my interest in this "discussion".

[Raynor]

Unhappy was the lot of Hurin; for all that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice Hurin knew also, but lies were mingled with the truth, and aught that was good was hidden or distorted. In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them, and feared them. When therefore he judged the time to be ripe, he released Hurin from his bondage, bidding him go whither he would; and he feigned that in this he was moved by pity as for an enemy utterly defeated. But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

The quote with "sought most" reffers to what Morgoth let Hurin know. It is further in the paragraph, the bolded part, that deal with his intent in releasing Hurin.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think perhaps you're underrating the intelligence and power of the self-styled Master of the Fates of Arda. I just read a very lucid amateur review of CoH, which likened Morgoth to a chessmaster playing an amateur: seeing the board a dozen moves ahead, anticipating everything his victim might do and having a counter ready.* I have little doubt that Morgoth knew within a standard deviation where Hurin would go and what he would do.


NB: There is no authentic JRRT text associating Hurin with the Nauglamir: in all versions pre-Christopher Thingol has the Necklace made from the hoard after Hurin departs. Nor did JRRT ever say anything about Hurin being healed.




* I've been that amateur, and it's a horrible, suffocating feeling, like being Kaa the Python's prey.

[Morwen]

Rikae, I am sorry that you are no longer interested in the discussion. However, I also don't think that Morgoth casting Melian and Thingol in a bad light has anything to do with any plan by Morgoth to destroy Doriath.
Doriath's doom is set in motion by Thingol's demand of a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Melian points out soon after that he has doomed either his daughter or himself and "now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm" (Of Beren and Luthien, Silm) Doriath's doom is effectively sealed once a Silmaril finds its way into Thingol's possession. Hurin or no Hurin, Nauglamir or no Nauglamir, Doriath is doomed.
However, does Hurin provide a catalyst for Doriath's destruction? Evidently so. His gift of Nauglamir sets off the chain of events which will end with Thingol's surviving grandchild living as a refugee by the sea. Is this all some part of grand scheme cooked up by Morgoth? I would argue no.

(1) The quote that you have cited that "in all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done" has to be read in light of the preceding paragraph:

So ended the tale of Turin Turambar; but Morgoth did not sleep nor rest from evil, and his dealings with the house of Hador were not yet ended. Against them his malice was unsated, though Hurin was under his eye, and Morwen wandered distraught in the world.

So despite the fact that Hurin's children are at this point dead, Morgoth is still intent on punishing Hurin. Not only will Hurin grieve the loss of his children but because Morgoth "sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done" he will also be angry and bitter toward the people who at one point sheltered them. Perhaps Morgoth's lies led him to believe that the rulers of Doriath could have done more to protect Turin and Nienor and so not only are Hurin's children dead but they died because Thingol and Melian failed to do enough to prevent it. Potraying the rulers of Doriath in a bad light therefore is not about unleashing Hurin on them as weapon (what could he hope to do to them?) but about compounding his grief over the loss of his children.

(2) I also do not think that Morgoth foresaw the indirect role that Hurin would play in Doriath's destruction. Raynor earlier mentioned that the foresight of the Valar is based on their knowledge of the music and alludes to this passage from Of the Silmarils concerning Morgoth's knowledge of Men - "Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do? Fetching Nauglamir, the gift of which is connected to Doriath's ruin, sounds like Hurin's idea to me. I don't know of any passage that suggests that it isn't. And if Morgoth is not involved with the retrieval of the necklace then I don't think that he can be said to have used Hurin to further the destruction of Doriath.

[Macalaure]

Unhappy was the lot of Húrin; for all that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice Húrin knew also, but lies were mingled with the truth, and aught that was good was hidden or distorted. In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them. When therefore he judged the time to be ripe, he released Hurin from his bondage, bidding him go whither he would; and he feigned that in this he was moved by pity as for an enemy utterly defeated. But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

The way I read this, Morgoth had indeed only a very general aim when he released Húrin. But, since he cast the worst light on Thingol and Melian, because he hated and feared them, it would be quite reasonable for him to assume that, among all realms, Húrin might do his greatest harm to Doriath.

I, too, can hardly believe that Morgoth planned the whole Nauglamír incident. But that does not mean that the release of Húrin has not been done in order to, among other things, further the destruction of Doriath. As has been said before, Morgoth's ultimate goal was to destroy everything, and so, everything he did was meant to further this. Furthering the hatred between Elves and Men in general, and Doriath and Men in particular, by releasing Húrin was one step in it. There was no real long-term plan in what he did, but the intention is more important, I think.

[Morwen]

In LotR there is a passage where Gollum observes that Sauron hated Isildur's city, to which Frodo replies "What does he not hate?" One can easily ask the same of Sauron's predecessor. Doubtless Morgoth wanted Doriath destroyed. I just don't see that as his reason for releasing Hurin. If we are talking about the destruction of Gondolin, that I can see. After all, Morgoth had attempted in vain to get Hurin to divulge the location of that city. Having failed to daunt Hurin into giving him that info, Morgoth releases him (new tactic) and Hurin then unwittingly does what he resisted doing for close to three decades: he gives the Dark Lord a clue as to Gondolin's location. So for me there is better link between the release of Hurin and Morgoth's plans to find and destroy Gondolin than there is between releasing him as a way of somehow furthering the destruction of Doriath.

Originally posted by Macalaure
Furthering the hatred between Elves and Men in general, and Doriath and Men in particular, by releasing Húrin was one step in it.

The rift between Elves and Men (apart from the three Houses of the Edain) had already been achieved by the treachery of Ulfang and co in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Could Hurin, angry and insulting, have widened the rift to include the Edain (or at least the remnants of the Houses)? What could he have done, one man against a powerful Elf Kingdom? Was Morgoth hoping that Hurin's anger all by itself could change Thingol's evolved opinion of Men? If that is what Morgoth was aiming for then it would underline his inability to grasp the concept of pity and his underestimation of the power of Melian. It is pity that restrains Thingol's wrath when Hurin appears in Doriath speaking his "wild and bitter words". It is in Menegroth "defended still by the Girdle of Melian" that Hurin is able to see the truth concerning what has happened to him and his family.
That said, for me Hurin's visit to Doriath has more to do with Hurin than Morgorth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do?

Because Morgoth is hyperintelligent. Like the chessmaster- he doesn't have a crystal ball, but he can predict with accuracy how his opponent will react in various situations. Simply deduction, not prophecy.

And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention. Whetehr Morgoth anticipated the specific manner or not, he knew that Hurin would infect Doriath with hate and malice. Hurin by the time he was released had become Morgoth's creature without knowing it- although he thought he was opposing him, doing evil from from evil motives redounds to the Devil's triumph.

[Morwen]

Quote:
"Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do?

Because Morgoth is hyperintelligent. Like the chessmaster- he doesn't have a crystal ball, but he can predict with accuracy how his opponent will react in various situations. Simply deduction, not prophecy.

How would hyperintelligence allow Morgoth to deduce that Hurin's visit would be to Doriath's detriment? It doesn't inevitably follow that because Hurin visited Doriath that it would somehow be ruined.

And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention. Whetehr Morgoth anticipated the specific manner or not, he knew that Hurin would infect Doriath with hate and malice. Hurin by the time he was released had become Morgoth's creature without knowing it- although he thought he was opposing him, doing evil from from evil motives redounds to the Devil's triumph.

If it is your contention that the bringing of the Nauglamir is not properly part of the story, then Hurin's contribution to Doriath's destruction moves from being indirect to non existent.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oh, come on. It was always part of the story that Hurin brought the hoard of Nargothrond, from which the Nauglamir was made- cursed by the dragon, by Mim, and by Hurin himself.

How could Morgoth see that Hurin would bring evil with him within the Girdle? Because that's how Tolkien's moral universe works. The taint of Melkorism is rather like a virus- see Aldarion and Erendis. Morgoth's seeds and lies take root and grow. Hurin would do evil, or precipitate it, because he was by now an evil creature: Morgoth had made him that way. His actions in Brethil make that perfectly clear. Even a non-hyperintelligent being could see that Hurin's approach to Thingol wouldn't be all warm and fuzzy. And if you accept the 1977 text as authoritative, then Melian's 'healing' necessarily implies that Hurin needed to be healed of something.

[Morwen]

As I stated earlier, I don't regard Hurin's presence in Doriath as the sine qua non of its destruction. Doriath's doom arises through its connection with the Silmaril. If we leave aside the question of the Nauglamir, I don't see how anything that Hurin does or says has any bearing on Doriath's eventual fate and his 'taint' is therefore is irrelevant.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

hmmm Doriath might have fallen anyways. . .probably would have actually, but we do not know.

The fact is that Hurin brings the Naulamir to Doriath and had he not done that. . .well everything could have happened. I know that you wanted to look aside from this, but I don't think it is possible to do so. You cannot just cut the most important part away and say "other than that there is nothing of importance".

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Morwen

Doubtless Morgoth wanted Doriath destroyed. I just don't see that as his reason for releasing Hurin. If we are talking about the destruction of Gondolin, that I can see.

Not the only reason, of course. I certainly wouldn't say that Morgoth foresaw the destruction of Doriath as it came to be, no matter how intelligent he was. He didn't even know that the Silmaril sealed Doriath's doom, as far as I'm aware. But, as I said, just because he lacked a clear plan it doesn't mean that furthering the destruction of Doriath, in a general way, was not the main goal.

I think there is no mention that Morgoth expected Hurin to show him the way to Gondolin. He had scouts following him and was more than happy to hear the news, but the purpose of the release remains to further the hatred between Elves and Men. Maybe Hurin's going to Gondolin was more than Morgoth hoped for?

Originally Posted by Morwen

Could Hurin, angry and insulting, have widened the rift to include the Edain (or at least the remnants of the Houses)? What could he have done, one man against a powerful Elf Kingdom? Was Morgoth hoping that Hurin's anger all by itself could change Thingol's evolved opinion of Men?

As WCH said, Hurin did manage to cause quite some trouble in Brethil. I don't think it would be farfetched for Morgoth to assume that an angry and insulting Hurin would cause Thingol to think different of the Edain. This wouldn't have caused the ruin of Doriath (not in the actual way it happened anyway), but advanced it - a little.


It's interesting that you bring up Sauron and Gollum and the concept of pity. There are certain parallels between Gollum and Hurin, I think. Both are released from their respective Dark Lord with similar goals: Finding the way to Gondolin (yes, I'm contradicting myself here - for analogy's sake) and causing whatever troubles to Elves and Men, and helping the Ringwraiths find the Ring and causing whatever troubles to the ringbearers. Of course, Sauron's hopes were betrayed more than Morgoth's, but in both cases they were betrayed due to pity (Frodo/Thingol). I have the impression that the inability to grasp the concept of pity is one main trait of evil in Tolkien's world, maybe even in general (but that goes far beyond the scope of this thread).

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

I have little doubt that Morgoth knew within a standard deviation where Hurin would go and what he would do.

I believe you are overestimating him at that time. The closer we get to the end of the first age, the more we find Melkor in a more fallen state. One of the very reasons why the valar attacked is that Melkor became weak in mind. In Myths Transformed, Tolkien comes close to equating evil with stupid (when discussing how Sauron could not understand Gandalf). He is described as consumed by hate and having no plan but a destruction of everything (including his own "creatures"); at times, Sauron achieves some of the things that Melkor "did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice". Although Melkor started very endowed, we really cannot discard the increasing negative effect of his malice upon all his gifts, his reason first and foremost.

[Morwen]

Originally posted by Rune
The fact is that Hurin brings the Naulamir to Doriath and had he not done that. . .well everything could have happened. I know that you wanted to look aside from this, but I don't think it is possible to do so. You cannot just cut the most important part away and say "other than that there is nothing of importance".

That is a point that you'll want to take up with William Cloud Hickli

Originally posted by William Cloud Hickli
And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention.

Not the only reason, of course. I certainly wouldn't say that Morgoth foresaw the destruction of Doriath as it came to be, no matter how intelligent he was. He didn't even know that the Silmaril sealed Doriath's doom, as far as I'm aware. But, as I said, just because he lacked a clear plan it doesn't mean that furthering the destruction of Doriath, in a general way, was not the main goal.

I think there is no mention that Morgoth expected Hurin to show him the way to Gondolin. He had scouts following him and was more than happy to hear the news, but the purpose of the release remains to further the hatred between Elves and Men. Maybe Hurin's going to Gondolin was more than Morgoth hoped for?

Yes, it's possible that Morgoth may have had such a plan, but from my reading of the text I have to ask "Is it likely?"

As for the Gondolin question I don't think it's coincidence that Morgoth, who knows or at least has good reason to suspect that Hurin knows the whereabouts of Gondolin, has him followed. It certainly wouldn't be unreasonable for Morgoth to assume that Hurin, alone and friendless, might possibly seek out aid from those in the Hidden Kingdom. I don't think that Hurin going to Gondolin is more than Morgoth hoped for. I think it is precisely what he did hope for.

Originally posted by Macalaure
As WCH said, Hurin did manage to cause quite some trouble in Brethil. I don't think it would be farfetched for Morgoth to assume that an angry and insulting Hurin would cause Thingol to think different of the Edain. This wouldn't have caused the ruin of Doriath (not in the actual way it happened anyway), but advanced it - a little.


It's interesting that you bring up Sauron and Gollum and the concept of pity. There are certain parallels between Gollum and Hurin, I think. Both are released from their respective Dark Lord with similar goals: Finding the way to Gondolin (yes, I'm contradicting myself here - for analogy's sake) and causing whatever troubles to Elves and Men, and helping the Ringwraiths find the Ring and causing whatever troubles to the ringbearers. Of course, Sauron's hopes were betrayed more than Morgoth's, but in both cases they were betrayed due to pity (Frodo/Thingol). I have the impression that the inability to grasp the concept of pity is one main trait of evil in Tolkien's world, maybe even in general (but that goes far beyond the scope of this thread).

(1) What trouble in Brethil are you referring to?

(2) I would have to think less of Thingol if one angry man is enough to change his view of an entire people, especially as Hurin at that point can't be said to be speaking for any of the Edain.

(3) I do think pity is very relevant. If Morgoth is indeed relying on Hurin's anger as a 'weapon' then he miscalculates, failing to see that when confronted by the anger of a man who has lost everything, Thingol and Melian might see past that anger to the fact that he has lost everything.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

I'd like to avoid the whole Nauglamir argument that's going on, because I'm the chess amateur William Cloud Hickli mentioned before, and skip back to what the Dark Elf contributed to the conversation a while back.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think Carcharoth's fate was wound inextricably with the Silmaril, yet so was Huan the hound's doom. Carcharoth was bred by Morgoth to be Huan's bane; therefore, the passage referring to Carcaroth's fate has the further inference of meeting Huan at last in mortal combat. Breaking the Girdle of Melian was due to the Silmaril, and Carcharoth's fate was to meet Huan in Doriath.

One also has to wonder about Melian's awareness of these things. If it were fate for Carcharoth to pass the Girdle, would she have precognition of it: i.e. was it impossible for her to stop it, because she knew it would happen no matter what? She predicted that Beren would arrive in Doriath, so he was not hindered when he arrived, alone and unintentionally trespassing. Much the same, she might have known that Carcharoth was heading into Doriath, but (look out! a digression!) like Beren, he was unwitting in his trespass, and didn't need to be hindered, and wasn't directly attacking the kingdom.
That ties into something Rikae said earlier:

Originally Posted by Rikae

However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

Morgoth had three Silmarils in his possession for quite a long time, and he didn't just wander into Doriath and attack Menegroth. I think that has quite a lot to do with Beren and Carcharoth (not to draw too many parallels between the two) unwittingly wandering into Doriath, without knowing specifically that they had crossed the Girdle of Melian. They were alone and, for the most part, unarmed. Now if Morgoth, on the other hand, had gathered all his forces and directly attacked Doriath, Melian's Girdle would have been strengthened for war, and she could have held back at least some of Morgoth's forces. It wasn't just one lone Man or Wolf wandering in through the mists.
It's a lot easier for one soldier to slip across the lines than it is for an army to march in. regardless of which war we're talking about.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

Morgoth had three Silmarils in his possession for quite a long time, and he didn't just wander into Doriath and attack Menegroth.

I believe it has already been mentioned before that Melkor feared for his body, that is why he avoided combat.

It's a lot easier for one soldier to slip across the lines than it is for an army to march in. regardless of which war we're talking about.

I don't think that this analogy is valid. Defense lines can be crossed it there is a lack of awareness, something I doubt can applied to matters of enchantment. The text is rather specific in that respect (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Of the Sindar, Silmarillion

Melian put forth her power and fenced all that dominion round about with an unseen wail of shadow and bewilderment: the Girdle of Melian, that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia.

Beren passed because fate was on his side:

Originally Posted by Of the Coming of Men into the West, Silmarillion

And one of Men, even of Beor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.

A rather similar case has been made for Carcharoth, with the mentioning that the power of the silmaril was a factor in his trespassing.

[Morthoron]

Perhaps Melian's Girdle veiled Morgoth's sight, or more likely, being the wolfish predator he was, Morgoth would have had to exert far more of his own personal power in overcoming the Girdle than merely relying on his minions to circumvent it. Such an extravagant exertion of personal power might have been beyond Morgoth's ability as he had expended it lavishly in previous ages.

P.S. With a grin I note this is my one-hundred and eleventieth post. Cheers to Bilbo!

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Perhaps Melian's Girdle veiled Morgoth's sight

I agree

Originally Posted by Of the Ruin of Doriath

And hearing the words of Melian Hurin stood moveless, and he gazed long into the eyes of the Queen; and there in Menegroth, defended still by the Girdle of Melian from the darkness of the Enemy, he read the truth of all that was done, and tasted at last the fullness of woe that was measured for him by Morgoth Bauglir.

Another interesting aspect of this quote is this: Hurin tastes the fullness of woe. This reinforces the quote I gave regarding the purpose of Hurin's release: to further Melkor's hate of Elves and Men, not to act as weapon in the actual fall of Doriath as it has been argued.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And hearing the words of Melian Hurin stood moveless, and he gazed long into the eyes of the Queen; and there in Menegroth, defended still by the Girdle of Melian from the darkness of the Enemy, he read the truth of all that was done, and tasted at last the fullness of woe that was measured for him by Morgoth Bauglir.

But Tolkien didn't write that passage. There's no suggestion of any healing at all- this whole business was written by Christopher (in consultation with Guy Kay).

Here however is a passage whose canonicity is if not perfect then still very great:

Who now knows the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, the dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, whether by spy or by traitor, seeing in the eyes of his mind and understanding far more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest among them feared.

The chessmaster indeed! And it continues

...save Melian the Queen. To her often his thought reached out, and was foiled

In fact, throughout CoH there are mentions of Morgoth's inability to 'see' into Doriath- echoed in Sauron and Galadriel's Lorien. Moreover,

Gondolin still stood, but it was hidden. Doriath he knew, but could not enter yet

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

In fact, throughout CoH there are mentions of Morgoth's inability to 'see' into Doriath- echoed in Sauron and Galadriel's Lorien. Moreover,

Well, a 'girdle' by its very nature is restrictive and tends to hide that which the wearer would prefer not to be seen. Another uplifting use of a word by Tolkien.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Here however is a passage whose canonicity is if not perfect then still very great:

Why is it "still very great"? And I really don't see how this helps your case; Myths Transformed mention that he couldn't finnish several of his actions due to the fury of his malice, and Sauron had to do them instead. Although the wise may be impressed by what he achieved, not all the credit goes to him. And even if it did, you still have to prove that he figured out and planned all the fall of Doriath. Even if it were possible for him to do that, it doesn't mean he actually did it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Why is it "still very great"?

Because it's from The Children of Hurin, where CRT has avoided like the plague any deviation from the source-texts, unlike his younger self.


I don't believe he planned the Fall of Doriath in detail. But he did know that Hurin would bring hate and malice with him, which would bear fruit; and far more powerfully than did young Turin, who only precipitated the death of Saeros and his own exile. And if the Oath and the Kinslaying played roles, well, Morgoth was behind those too.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Because it's from The Children of Hurin, where CRT has avoided like the plague any deviation from the source-texts, unlike his younger self.

The quote first appears in the Silmarillion, in Of Turin Turambar. I am not aware it appears in Tolkien's own writings.

I don't believe he planned the Fall of Doriath in detail. But he did know that Hurin would bring hate and malice with him, which would bear fruit; and far more powerfully than did young Turin, who only precipitated the death of Saeros and his own exile. And if the Oath and the Kinslaying played roles, well, Morgoth was behind those too.

We are going in circles. Hurin himself brought little if any malice, as it has been covered more than once already. As for the hoard, oath and the kinslaying arguments, they are, as I mentioned from my first post, seeds of evil which develop independently from Melkor's will. One could even argue that there is no evidence that Melkor planned and caused the hoard to be cursed, the oath to be taken and the kinslaying to occur; nor that he continue to control their chains of events towards the destruction of Doriath.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Morwen

Yes, it's possible that Morgoth may have had such a plan, but from my reading of the text I have to ask "Is it likely?"

Well, I've read the text, too, and my reading tells me that it is.

As I said, I don't argue that Morgoth planned or foresaw the ruin as it came to be, just that he sent out Húrin with the intent to harm in particular Doriath.

As for the Gondolin question I don't think it's coincidence that Morgoth, who knows or at least has good reason to suspect that Hurin knows the whereabouts of Gondolin, has him followed. It certainly wouldn't be unreasonable for Morgoth to assume that Hurin, alone and friendless, might possibly seek out aid from those in the Hidden Kingdom. I don't think that Hurin going to Gondolin is more than Morgoth hoped for. I think it is precisely what he did hope for.

Of course Morgoths suspects Húrin of knowing the whereabouts of Gondolin. But Húrin managed to conceal his knowledge from Morgoth for decades. Was it reasonable for Morgoth to think that Húrin would now be so unwise? The fact that Húrin is followed isn't necessarily evidence, because he would have spied on him in either case, and other than that I don't see anything in the text that suggests this was Morgoth's hope.

(1) What trouble in Brethil are you referring to?

Oh, I'm sorry. It's from the HoME 11, The War of the Jewels. To put it very short: After Morwen died Húrin goes to Brethil, where his grief and his stubbornness trigger events that lead to the end of the descendants of Haleth.

(2) I would have to think less of Thingol if one angry man is enough to change his view of an entire people, especially as Hurin at that point can't be said to be speaking for any of the Edain.

Sure, from our point of view. But we're talking about Morgoth's one.

(3) I do think pity is very relevant. If Morgoth is indeed relying on Hurin's anger as a 'weapon' then he miscalculates, failing to see that when confronted by the anger of a man who has lost everything, Thingol and Melian might see past that anger to the fact that he has lost everything.

It is very relevant, I absolutely agree. And I think that Morgoth did miscalculate exactly that.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

(3) I do think pity is very relevant. If Morgoth is indeed relying on Hurin's anger as a 'weapon' then he miscalculates, failing to see that when confronted by the anger of a man who has lost everything, Thingol and Melian might see past that anger to the fact that he has lost everything.

It is very relevant, I absolutely agree. And I think that Morgoth did miscalculate exactly that.

Arrrgghhhhh! How many times does it have to be repeated? Tolkien never, ever, said that! Not once in any authentic writing did he suggest that Hurin was met with pity or healing. Indeed, in the original Tale and again in the Qenta Noldorinwa, the only narratives written, Thingol treats him with scorn and contempt. In the last version of the incident Tolkien himself ever wrote, the Later Annals of Beleriand, "Hurin brought the gold to Thingol in Doriath, but he departed thence again with bitter words." And if you think Tolkien's view of his character mellowed over time, you'd be dead wrong- this is where The Wanderings of Hurin (ca. 1960) are important. Hurin there is a bitter, vengeful old man, watching with sardonic amusement the fratricidal bloodbath he precipitated in Brethil. If he enjoyed the destruction of the House of Haleth, how much more must he have wished harm on Thingol!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Quote:Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli
Because it's from The Children of Hurin, where CRT has avoided like the plague any deviation from the source-texts, unlike his younger self.

The quote first appears in the Silmarillion, in Of Turin Turambar. I am not aware it appears in Tolkien's own writings.

Much of Ch. 21 was perforce taken from the Narn papers, which are the source-material for The Children of Hurin. But Christopher today thinks that the Christopher of the 1970s took far too many liberties with his father's manuscripts, and has said many times, in print and out, that the Children of Hurin is with a few minor exceptions his father's words verbatim- much more so than was the case with the Narn in Unfinished Tales. I would accord the Children of Hurin canonical status above Unfinished Tales and just below HoME- and of course far, far above Chapter 22 of the 1977 text, which Christopher largely made up from whole cloth.

[Raynor]

Well, if we are going canonical, then whatever Chris wrote, it has the full, official, backing of the professor. He can modify, publish, or delete anything and everything. Anyway, even if, for the sake of argument, we disregard Tolkien's position regarding Chris, you still have to prove that Melkor planned and controlled the chain of events. However, by and large, you already admitted that was not the case.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

My position is straightforward and hardly complicated- Morgoth released the twisted, ruined Hurin to become a moral Typhoid Mary directed principally at Doriath. Is that not the case?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

My position is straightforward and hardly complicated- Morgoth released the twisted, ruined Hurin to become a moral Typhoid Mary directed principally at Doriath.

"Straightforward position" and "moral Typhoid Mary" in the same phrase? That is a bit amusing for a non-native speaker like me . On the topic: that Hurin was released to be a "hate factor", I agreed with back when I quoted the reason why he was released. The case in point is the degree of control that Melkor had over the fall of Doriath. You previously argued he was "hyper intelligent", and thus he had the means. However, as I pointed previously, the horde, oath and kinslaying that you invoked were correlated to Melkor, but he did not create and control them. I'm afraid that, at this point, I said as much as I could on this subject.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Arrrgghhhhh! How many times does it have to be repeated? Tolkien never, ever, said that! Not once in any authentic writing did he suggest that Hurin was met with pity or healing. Indeed, in the original Tale and again in the Qenta Noldorinwa, the only narratives written, Thingol treats him with scorn and contempt. In the last version of the incident Tolkien himself ever wrote, the Later Annals of Beleriand, "Hurin brought the gold to Thingol in Doriath, but he departed thence again with bitter words." And if you think Tolkien's view of his character mellowed over time, you'd be dead wrong- this is where The Wanderings of Hurin (ca. 1960) are important. Hurin there is a bitter, vengeful old man, watching with sardonic amusement the fratricidal bloodbath he precipitated in Brethil. If he enjoyed the destruction of the House of Haleth, how much more must he have wished harm on Thingol!

I'm aware that there are those who believe that Of the Ruin of Doriath doesn't have a legitimate place within the Tolkien canon. However, whatever handwringing and agonising that Christopher may have done post 1977 he has never sought to revise the tale and at this point it is unlikely that he will do so. So what are we left with? Am I to understand that I cannot discuss a view of Doriath's destruction presented in a thirty year old work edited by Tolkien's literary executor?