Tolkien and Catholic Saints

[mark12_30]

Mister Platypus,

I must agree with you here. Tolkien clearly states that he detests allegory; he then states that applicability is just fine; and then he goes on (in Letter 320) to reveal this:

I was particularly interested in your remarks about Galadriel..... I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary, but actually Galadriel was a penitent: in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar (the angelic guardians). At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return. She was pardoned because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself."

So: We see that Mary heavily influenced Galadriel; but-- Galadriel is not in fact an allegory of Mary.

--She does not bear the Son That Rescues Middle Earth (if she was the mother of Aragorn, or Frodo, or even Gandalf [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] , it would be tempting to shout "allegory", I think.) She is not.

--Neither is she sinless (calm down, other-evangelicals-like-me, I'm talking about Tolkien's Catholic doctrine here, let's stick to the point.)

--She is wise and holy and beautiful, and as such Mary-like; but she is fallen, and in need of redeemption, and she recieves it when she shows by her actions that she wants it.

So:
Influence? Definitely;
Applicability? Perhaps/probably;
Allegory-- certainly not.

[lindil]

Sharku:

Catholic saints legends and Tolkien's Legendarium have one fundamental thing in common: both are completely fictitious.

I see your point and I also see the nuance you attempted to place upon legends.

I would still disagree that theses 'legends' [and who is to say which Catholic Saints lives are true and which are legends?] of the Catholic saints 'are completely fictitious'. Let us take the voyage of St. Brendan, do think this was 'complete;y fictitious' or as is to me extremely likely to be based largely on real events, adding in to the mix, religious visions, halucinations based on dehydration or somesuch. Let us take St. George [ although I would classify him as an Orthodox and not a Catholic saint] and the 'dragon'. You do not think St. George met somethhing? It is completely fictitious?

If you are insinuating that any miraculous occurance [ such as we see in the New Testament say with jesus multiplying Loagves and fishes, or walkind on water] is fictitious, then please state so clearly.

If you are on the other hand stating that there is legend and myth contained within the lives of some of the Catholic saints, then you picked I think an over-reaching staement to do that.

As for the religous underpinning of the legendarium, one need only look at the Athrabeth ah Finrod Andreth in HoME 10 wherein Finrod hypothesises that the creator himself would have to be incarnate in order to heal the hurts of Arda.

In that dialog between an elf and a mortal woman we see JRRT dealing with essential [central] themes of both the Old and New testemant themes. The fall of man from his original immortality, and the redemption of all of creation by the Incarnation of God.


There is no allegory, it is a direct reference.

There is no question that as JRRT aged the legendarium became ever more closely linked with religious truth as understood by a traditional Roman Catholic.

The seeds of this can clearly be discerned [to anyone not pre-disposed to disregard them] in the LotR and more obviously so in the published Silmarillion.

[ January 08, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Being Catholic myself, I do notice some connections between Tolkien characters and some Saints [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Joy posted:

I was comparing the Valar to the Arcangels, the Maias as Principalies, and the Istari or wizards as warring angels

From the angelic hierarchy I relationed Valar to a different order (I agree in relating Maiar to Principalities and Istari to Angels):

Valar to Powers [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (notice that not only the definition of the Powers fit the Valar, but also that the Valar are known as the Powers in ME):

Powers: Spirits of Form. Holding one of the most dangerous tasks, the powers are responsible for maintaining the border between Heaven and Earth. Acting as a sort of elite guard, they constantly watch for demonic attack, and are the major line of defense and battle during heavenly warfare. They are also tasked with guarding the celestial byways between the two realms and ensuring that souls which leave the mortal world reach heaven safely

And I find also similarities between Eärendil and St. John the Baptist.
Ëarendil is the morning star that announces the rising of the Sun, which for Christians is the simbol of the herald that announces the coming of Christ (the Sun).

EDIT:
In another way Ëarendil is also the herald of Christ. Through Christ the Creation is healed of the evil resulting from the Fall of Men. Thanks to His Death, Heaven is re-opened to Men.
Ëarendil's actions 'heal' the evil done by the Fall of the Elves. Thanks to his actions, Aman is re-opened to Elves.

[ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

[Joy]

Just bringing this back up, as there are many new members here and I would like to see their responses.