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Old 12-16-2003, 01:09 PM   #1
Estelyn Telcontar
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Silmaril **RotK - Arwen (Liv Tyler)**

Did you like the way Arwen was portrayed in the third movie and Tyler's acting of the role?
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Old 12-17-2003, 03:35 AM   #2
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Well, except for the sickness, she really didn't have that big of a part. It wasn't too offensive, and I have bigger gripes with others.<P>All in all, she did better than the other two movies, I think.
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Old 12-17-2003, 04:33 AM   #3
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Silmaril

The role: I thought the challenge to her father was well thought out. There were a few minor peeves, but I'll let them go. The Shire child-vision (I thought) was pure genius. <P>The actress: I thought she did very well.
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Old 12-17-2003, 05:16 AM   #4
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I didn't really get the part with the space aliens.
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Old 12-17-2003, 01:42 PM   #5
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The decision to go to Valinor and then come back was a ridiculous choice by the directers. But on the whole Tyler was pretty good. She looks fantastic and all, but she has a pretty small part to play. She did well.
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Old 12-17-2003, 03:11 PM   #6
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I really loved the portrayal of Arwen and the bit about her son. I kind of thought it would be nice for her to realize she loved Aragorn too much to leave him, though. I mean, I almost got the impression that if it were for Aragorn alone she would not have stayed, but she would stay for a child. <P>Agreed with Eomer - it's a little bit silly to spend all that time sending Arwen to the Grey Havens just so they can turn around and send her back to Rivendell. I would have preferred to have that whole twist cut out and see Eowyn and Faramir's relationship develop.
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Old 12-17-2003, 03:33 PM   #7
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I agree as well, but I thought she did an excellent job!!! Bravo Liv!!! At first I was skeptical about the whole vision of her son thing, but I ended up really enjoying that, it is a credit to the books!!! Plus that little boy was beautiful, he really resembled Liv Tyler, then did a good job casting him. (although, do you think he was computer enhanced?)
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Old 12-17-2003, 04:36 PM   #8
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I was wondering the same thing, they did look alike...I thought that scene was quite a nice tough, but it wasn't very well placed. It did make it seem like she stayed for the child...<BR>I think Liv was good in the role, and she looks great, but I wasn't very happy with her whole hide and seek thing before Aragorn realises she's stayed. It looked a little off.
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Old 12-17-2003, 06:03 PM   #9
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Silmaril

I found Liv's performance, though brief as it was in this, very touching especially her scenes with Hugo Weaving! <P>I had tears in my eyes when I realized who that beautiful little boy she saw was Eldarion! And that was <B>great</B> casting as that child was beautiful and did resemble Liv a great deal!<P>And I loved the ending where Arwen shows up at Minas Tirith, though my heart broke for Elrond when he gave her hand to Aragorn...<P>Oh and what was that about Sauron and the war being tied into Arwen's fate? Elrond said she was dying - was he just trying to motivate Aragorn into assuming him kingship or was she in fact really dying?
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Old 12-17-2003, 06:24 PM   #10
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I don't blame Liv Tyler at all, she's done her best, poor thing, the way her part has been mucked around with - but I thought the Arwen role was a bit of a shambles in RotK. The dying because of the Ring business made no sense at all. Luckily it was just a small part of the overall action, and easily ignored.
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Old 12-17-2003, 06:51 PM   #11
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Yeah, my only real gripe about Arwen was how her fate was supposedly tied in with the ring... WHY would an elven princess have ANYTHING to do with the ring?? Doesn't make any sense at all.
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Old 12-17-2003, 07:09 PM   #12
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Sting

You have to admit, it certainly makes things a LOT more dramatic. With Arwen dying, there is much more at stake for Aragorn, than just Eriador falling to Sauron. If he fails, not only will he die, not only will Eriador die, but the love of his life, his soulmate will die. That is incentive enough to lead an almost suicidal mission, in my opinion.
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Old 12-17-2003, 10:04 PM   #13
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I thought her coming back was rather pathetic, but obviously had to happen. & I also don't get the thing about her life being tied to the Ring...is that a necessary side-plot? Or was that actully in the books & I just forgot it...
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Old 12-17-2003, 11:32 PM   #14
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On the whole, I was relieved. While I was dreading further tearage, it was kept to a minimum. Another octave and dynamic was added to her voice, and this time when she kissed Aragorn it looked like she meant it. I guess her laughing smile in her last scene did a lot to soften my irritation at the way she'd been directed and scripted earlier. In other words, she did more than just <I>look</I> like Arwen.<P>Regarding the Arwen-is-dying-because-of-the-Ring thing, I took it that since the Elves' time was coming to an end, and, given that she was a sensitive type, her life force was simply more affected by the gathering power of the Ring as it neared its maker and place of making. I had to stretch, but not too far. Of course, it was to bring more of the fabled tension into the movie, but, for me, it worked. (And I consider myself a purist! Maybe I'm actually now able to separate the book from movie a little better. And then again, maybe they didn't mess up the essential story line of Arwen.)
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Old 12-18-2003, 01:52 AM   #15
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Yeah. The whole "she is now tied up with the Ring" thing threw me for a loop, but I loved the Eldarion-scene. It made me a little teary-eyed.
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Old 12-18-2003, 03:48 AM   #16
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Call me crazy, but I decided to invent a reason as to why her fate was tied to the ring. I thought, perhaps what was meant was that if the ring was not destroyed, Aragorn would have little chance of survival himself, and as she was holding on for him, she may not have been able to live with him dead. It sounds much less eloquent when I try putting in into words...but that's the gist.
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Old 12-18-2003, 08:42 AM   #17
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Superb acting, and a couple of good scenes. She technically WAS dying as soon as she gave up her immortal life. I think that's what Jackson might have been getting at?
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Old 12-18-2003, 01:21 PM   #18
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Silmaril

A thought occured to me this morning: that PJ and crew had to invent some reason for Arwen <I>not</I> coming to give the sword to Aragorn with Elrond. We know that originally they planned her to, but changed their minds and made her role less warrior-oriented. But the scene in which she stands up to the Nazgul is still in FotR, so anyone would wonder why she all of a sudden has to stay home away from the battle. I mean, <I>Eowyn</I> is there and she's a girl, so what's Arwen's excuse? It would look like she suddenly chickened out. If they say she's dying they give justification for keeping a competant fighter home.
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Old 12-18-2003, 07:43 PM   #19
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Interesting idea, Diamond! I like that better than my idea, which was that it was a useless deviation from the book for no good reason. <P>I didn't like Arwen's scenes until the last one. She looked beautiful and the kiss was perfect.<P>-Lily
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Old 12-18-2003, 08:24 PM   #20
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First of all I have to say that Arwen and Elrond were <B>greatly</B> redeemed in my mind by the third movie. The writers and especially the actors did a great job, and it was really nice for me to finish the trilogy not hating Elrond. Suddenly we who were so blind see the reason for his previous grumpiness. Of course, he has the most to lose from the defeat of Sauron. In the books this is only made apparent near the end, but in retrospect I think the movies show us this all the way through. His motivation the entire time has been to keep Arwen for himself.<P>Liv Tyler acted beautifully, and for once the script had her doing enough but not too much. I have only seen the movie once so far, but I thought the scene where she foresees the child she and Aragorn will have was very moving. Probably because my wife and I have a 10-month old son. To anyone not so lucky that thought this scene was rubbish, perhaps you will think differently in another 10 or 20 years.<P>However, I guess it was a bit of a frustrating way to turn everything around. Perhaps having Arwen see the vision at Rivendell may not have worked, I guess we'll never know. But it's yet another case of Peter Jackson's shocking <B>Oh, they're going. Oh no! I tricked you, they're coming back!</B> ploy. Yes, <I>very</I> cunning Mr. Jackson . You certainly had us fooled. I'm sure that everybody thought that Arwen was leaving Middle-Earth, Sam was going back to Hobbiton, and Aragorn was lost forever (TTT).<P>The fact that several Barrow Downers have not picked up on the Arwen dying idea shows how poorly it was shown, and how ill-advised it was to begin with! In keeping with the comic-book type magic of the movies, in FOTR Arwen gave the ability to leave for Valinor to Frodo. As if it was like a backstage pass. I believe it has more to do with this than with her giving the Evenstar to Aragorn. Yes, that signifies that she wishes to become mortal, but the fact that her fate is now tied up with that of Frodo and therefore the Ring is the reason that she is dying. For the same reason she tells Elrond that she cannot take ship even if she wanted to.<P>It makes no sense, it's absolutely ridiculous, and it was totally unnecessary since at the end of the ROTK movie the elves decide to let Bilbo go without his having to take the place of someone. I doubt whether anyone would think that Aragorn needs the extra encouragement of Arwen dying to defeat Sauron. Maybe it's supposed to go something like:<P><I>Aragorn:</I> <BR>"Dominating Middle-Earth I can stand. <BR>Killing my friends... fair enough. <BR>Destroying my kingdom, my people and my city, that's forgiveable I suppose. <BR>But now you're hurting my girlfriend? Say your prayers, sucker!!"<P>Right .
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Old 12-19-2003, 12:40 PM   #21
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Sting

I just loved that scene at the end when Arwen steps out from behind that banner. That reunion was just beautiful. <P><BR>I think Arwen's character was fully redeemed in the third movie. She stood firm behind her beloved, even when she was dying. She stood against all odds, even against her own father, in defense of the man she loved. I really loved that scene with little Eldarion because, since I have a 2-year-old younger brother who I've practically mothered, I know how it feels to suddenly feel that intensely wonderful bond of pure love, with another human being. <P>In short, everything that Arwen did in the third movie completely redeemed any faults that seemed to be apparent in her character in the first and second movies.
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Old 12-19-2003, 03:46 PM   #22
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Old 12-19-2003, 05:37 PM   #23
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Hmmm. When Arwen's role was changed by PJ into a powerful, proactive one, there was a huge outcry from Tolkien fans. When her role was changed by PJ into a sickly one - no outcry. <BR>I didn't mind the Eldarion vision, although both that, and the back story from the Appendix in TTT, could have been brought in without all this will she/won't she go to Valinor. But I really disliked the mysterious sickness, and popping out from behind a banner like the lady sawed in half, ta-da, and the big smooch at the end. Can you imagine Tolkien's Aragorn and Arwen doing tongues in full view of all their subjects? Never!
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Old 12-19-2003, 07:21 PM   #24
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Did you like the way Arwen was portrayed in the third movie and Tyler's acting of the role? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Two thumbs down. Bad casting worse writing. <P>Finwe posted [in regards to her dying because of the ring]:'You have to admit, it certainly makes things a LOT more dramatic. With Arwen dying'<P>Yep it was high drama alright, I wondered indeed how much more cheesy can PJ get than tying the ring's power to Arwen's mortality.<P>All in all possibly the most stupid 'adaptation' in the whole trilogy.<P>Doug posted [ah we are ever fated to be at odds on this movie it seems ] :'To anyone not so lucky that thought this scene was rubbish, perhaps you will think differently in another 10 or 20 years.'<P>Well Doug I have two young girls and I thought the whole re-casting of motives for 'Aragorn'/'Arwen'/'Elrond' etc, was poor, and would have been poor in any context [non-tolkien] the fact that it was re-writing LotR only made it the sadder.<P>The mercy of course is that it is now over, and one no longer needs to wonder how 'Middle-Earth's' royal family will be twisted into hollywood shape.
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Old 12-28-2003, 09:58 PM   #25
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Aragorn: <BR>"Dominating Middle-Earth I can stand. <BR>Killing my friends... fair enough. <BR>Destroying my kingdom, my people and my city, that's forgiveable I suppose. <BR>But now you're hurting my girlfriend? Say your prayers, sucker!!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>LOL!<P>I just love Liv Tyler, and i thought she did a wonderful job as Arwen, if there was any fault in the character thats not her fault, its the <I>writers</I>. I loved it when she saw her son and Aragorn, it really was an "Awwww" moment, had it not been for my friend next to me saying "Whose that?"<BR><I>"Eldarion"... </I> "whose kid is it?", <BR><I>"Arwen's"</I>.. "To who?" <I>"Aragorn"</I>, <P>It was a really nice moment, thought the kiss at the end, it was fantastic, but it was a little too un-elf-like if you ask me.
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Old 12-28-2003, 10:03 PM   #26
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I think that by Elrond saying that her life is bound to the ring i think he means that if the ring is given bakc to sauron that she die becuase the ships to Valinor cant carry her back. I dont think he life is connected to the ring though.
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Old 12-28-2003, 10:07 PM   #27
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Everdawn - well, she's just given up her elfhood. Maybe she felt like trying to act mortal and overdid it .
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Old 12-28-2003, 10:09 PM   #28
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lol, probably, she just needs to get the hang of mortailty, a nice moment none the less. Oh, yeah, i never got the whole Arwen bound to ring thing, but it was nice.
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Old 12-28-2003, 10:15 PM   #29
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Tar-Alcarin's explanation makes the most sense to me - since in the movie version she gives up her immortality even before Aragorn is king (a bit early, I'd say) she's definitely not going anywhere no matter what happens - hence their transplanting of the "no ship now to bear me hence" line. I don't understand why that would mean she was in more danger of imminent death than anyone else in ME.
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Old 12-30-2003, 07:30 AM   #30
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Sting

I'm probably one of the only people here who do, but I love Liv Tyler. She IS Arwen to me. She was downright intimidating when she walked up to her Ada and said "You saw there was a child. You saw my son."<P>As for the Arwen/Ring connection, think about it... if the ring isn't destroyed, sooner or later Sauron will kill Aragorn. Thus Arwen will die of grief. So, in a way, the writers didn't change much.
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Old 12-30-2003, 07:39 AM   #31
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As for the "big smooch", give me a break. The guy hasn't seen the love of his life for, like, ever? Of course he's gonna plant her a wet one! Your subjects would rather see you passionate and happy than bloody frigid.<P>I absolutely love Hugo Weaving and his Agent Elrond. Of course he's gonna be in despair or "grumpy"! His wife had to leave him early, now he's gonna lose the only other woman in his life. What is he gonna do, hand Aragorn her hand and say "Just be gentle"?
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Old 12-31-2003, 06:13 PM   #32
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LOL!!! Agreed!!
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Old 12-31-2003, 08:13 PM   #33
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I'm hearing a lot of good points in this, and I agree with a lot of them. THe one that makes the most sense however, is that they tied her fate to the ring to make it more dramatic. That really was, I think, the entire reason behind putting Arwen in all three films. Liv did a wonderful job in all the movies I thought. One of the things that kind of irked me about the books is that they did not put what kind of struggle Arwen went through to keep to her promise to Aragorn. The movies have done that,I think, to perfection. Arwen is the very essence of human love and devotion. The struggle she goes through, the choices she has to make, everything that affects her also affects him. Its beautiful. When I first read the books, I didn't really understand them, but when I went back and reread them, I completely fell in love with them because every character in that book represents humanity in some way. Whether they are elven, Dwarven, human or otherwise, they all react with human emotion. For example, Elrond wants to send Arwen to the undying lands. He wants to protect her. Father figure/caring. Yet, Arwen wants to stay with Aragorn-devotion. And I'm getting off topic right now, so I'm going to stop, but may I just say that I have never cried in a movie, or at any point in my life, save when I got really angry this one time(that I remember) But when I saw that sceen with Eldarion and Aragorn, and the six times after, I cried everytime. It is beautiful, and it tears you up inside, which is what I think Pj was trying to do.<P>Nemarie'
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Old 12-31-2003, 08:16 PM   #34
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I don't get it everyone thinks Liv Tyler is so pretty and junk but I don't in my opnion she looks like a rabbit, her role just bothed me! urhg! Her charecter is to well corny all her lines are relly sappy in a BAD way! I actually Like arwen in FOTR but then she changed from but-kicking elf to sappy lovey-dovey mortal I don't get that!<BR>anyway I don't like the way Live tyler was Arwen in TTT or ROTK!!!! <P><BR>her scences were a perfect batthroom break! thought
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Old 12-31-2003, 08:20 PM   #35
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I doubt whether anyone would think that Aragorn needs the extra encouragement of Arwen dying to defeat Sauron. Maybe it's supposed to go something like: <BR>Aragorn: <BR>Dominating Middle-Earth I can stand. <BR>Killing my friends... -fair enough. <BR>Destroying my kingdom, my people and my city,- that's forgiveable I suppose. <BR>But now you're hurting my girlfriend?- Say your prayers, sucker!!" <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>ROTFLMFAO <P>I totaly agree!!!
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Old 12-31-2003, 09:13 PM   #36
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I dont think he(r) life is connected to the ring though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I assumed this meant that her life was connected in the same way every mortal in Middle Earth's life was connected to the Ring. If she is mortal, she has more of a stake in whether the Ring is destroyed or regained by Sauron. She can no longer go West and escape it as the other Elves can.<P>Personally, I like the toned down Arwen in TTT and ROTK; it was "Xenarwen" I didn't care for, mainly because it messed up a potentially great Frodo scene and solidified so many people's viewpoint of the movie Frodo as a wimp (although he does show strength more quietly in other places in the movie). The Ford of Bruinen scene would have been better without the sword wielding Elf princess carrying the helpless hobbit. It takes Arwen out of her element and diminishes Frodo unnecessarily. That's my only Arwen complaint (and that one is aimed at whoever rewrote that scene, not Liv!). Otherwise, she is softly strong and strikingly beautiful as she was meant to be! I always got mad at Elrond for playing such head games with her and making her cry; I never faulted her for being teary all the time. It's all Elrond's fault! (That, and I thought the wishy-washy attitude ascribed to Aragorn with respect to her ultimate fate was unnecessary, but that it probably just my own conceit. I understand it is a bit of movie-tension that couldn't be left alone...)<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta<p>[ 10:15 PM December 31, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]
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Old 01-01-2004, 01:49 AM   #37
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For the first ten seconds of Arwens vision, I thought Eldarion was a hobbit. But after I saw the feet I figured it out. <BR>The kiss at the end kind of bothered me, because that would be concidered very improper in Middle Earth (they weren't married yet). The flower petals too, I know that's not Arwen, but it bothered me. For a great deal of that scene it's raining flowers, is it Elven magic, or something Gandalf whipped up? It can't be people of Gondor, because they are on the top level of the city. <BR>Also (not Liv Tylers fault), I thought the whole thing with the pendant was wierd. In the book there is something of that sort, but Arwen gives it to Frodo in ROTK, and Aragorn never has it. I really missed that scene, as it is the scene when we see what a kind person Arwen is.
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Old 01-01-2004, 08:31 AM   #38
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I think PJ borrowed the Aragorn/Arwen kiss from Faramir/Eowyn, thus: "And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many."
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Old 01-01-2004, 02:01 PM   #39
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To all you people who think that Arwen was way too cheesy:<P><BR>Sorry, but in the Books, she WAS cheesy! Honestly, what else do you call a girl who stays home and weaves a bloody BANNER???? I know it was symbolic and all, but still. If THAT isn't cheesy, I don't know what is. Would you have preferred that all of Arwen's scenes had been of her weaving??? I think not.
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Old 01-02-2004, 01:03 AM   #40
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I think Liv Tyler did a pretty great job for a character that didn't have that much screen time. Even in the book, Arwen Undomiel was mentioned only a few times except in the appendices. You could say that Arwen was one of the reasons why Aragorn went all through these challanges. And I really dreaded the thought of Arwen being Xenarwen. She was just as strong as Eowyn in her own way. And she did sacrifice her mortality to be with the person that she loves. That has to count for something.<BR>Although I was somewhat sceptical when I first heard of Liv playing Arwen, now I think PJ had did a right choice of casting her. As I had said before somewhere, you can't always satisfy the whole masses.
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