Gollum exiting Moria - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Osse · 02-03-2004, 08:54 AM

Hello Downers.
As we all know, Gollum pursued the fellowship from the west gate of Moria, all the way to the east. However, he is able to continue his pursuit outside of Moria... my point is this; When Gandalf fought the Balrog, he cast the bridge of Kazad-dum into the abyss- How did gollum get across?? The only possible conclusion is that he had lost the fellowship at the chamber of Marzubal, and knowing of their destination, had crossed the bridge and waited for them outside. This is perhaps the case, but perhaps there is something I have missed, in tolkien's letters for instance? in regards to this topic?

Regards, looking forward to any other possible conclusions,

Osse

Althern · 02-03-2004, 09:24 AM

The Bridge of Khazad-dum may be the only exit from Moria to the east. That is, the only exit if you wanted to walk out. I recall that the book mentions that there are shafts in the chamber of Mazarbul and other places that allow natural light into the caverns; Gollum could have climbed one of these and ended up on the mountainside. Then again, he could always take the endless stair, walk to the top and climb down the mountain. The Fellowship tarried in Lorien for some time...

ainur · 02-03-2004, 09:57 AM

I keyed in "Gollum Moria" on the search function and found a dozen threads. They all speculate on how Gollum exited Moria and followed the Fellowship into Lorien. He may have passed ahead of them while they tarried in the Chamber of Mazarbul and crossed the bridge and exited the east gate ahead of them, trying to cut them off. He may have followed the orcs after the fall of Gandalf and the Balrog. He may have found an air-shaft to crawl out while all these other things were going on. I didn't find anything that quoted Tolkien on how he got out.

It's true that the Fellowship tarried in Lorien for quite some time, but Gollum was there the very first night that they were. He tried to approach Frodo as he slept in the tree, but was scared off by Haldir and the other Lorien elves. However he got out, he reached the borders of Lorien approximately the same time as the orcs that pursued the Fellowship.

Lord of Angmar · 02-03-2004, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Then again, he could always take the endless stair, walk to the top and climb down the mountain. The Fellowship tarried in Lorien for some time...

Well, Gollum caught up to them on their first night on the flanks of Lorien, and nearly found Frodo and the hobbits lying in a tree, before the orc band came. Besides, I doubt Gollum would be able to find or take said stairway.

My guess is he went ahead of the Fellowship, crossed the bridge, and awaited their departure from Moria to resume his tracking.

-Angmar

Secret Fire · 02-03-2004, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Then again, he could always take the endless stair, walk to the top and climb down the mountain. The Fellowship tarried in Lorien for some time...

No, that is not quite possible as the only way Gandalf got to the endless stair was by falling down the abyss and following teh balrog, and it went from the lowest chamber to the highest peak, but it is entirely possible that since there was such a following on the fellowship by orcs that Gollum was able to follow them out, they would know the many ways out, and also trolls were bridging gaps with planks. Anyway, he could have followed the orcs who were intimately aware of the passages in Moria.

Kidd2323 · 02-03-2004, 04:57 PM

I must agree with Secret Fire, because Gollum wasn't immediately on the Fellowship's trail, but was seen by the elves as following the orcs into Lorien. So it stands to reason that he followed them out of Moria, and I am certain that the orcs had such an intimate knowledge of the mines that they knew every possible hole out of which to crawl, and it had been a long time since the dwarves actually ruled Moria as a whole, so the orcs could have made alternative exits. It would be neat though if Tolkien had described them.

Osse · 02-03-2004, 07:21 PM

That is not correct, Frodo saw gollum following them, the night they escaped from moria, within four miles of the east gate. That said, he didnt follow the orcs out... and he must of lost them in the events of Marzubal, and gone ahead to catch them as they exited.

Althern · 02-04-2004, 06:00 AM

Yes, yes, I’d forgotten that Gollum was so soon on the Fellowship’s trail after exiting Moria. So much for being flippant. Still, it is clear that the bridge is not the only way out, as the pursuing orcs managed to do so relatively quickly. It would therefore be reasonable to assume that Gollum exited via one of those, most likely after the Fellowship has left, but the exact nature of the exit remains (and will remain) mere speculation.

Osse · 02-04-2004, 09:16 AM

As there are no accurate maps of Kazad-Dum, we'll just have to be content pondering! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

In the book; Maps of Middle-earth, I seem to remember all the maps from the first age, but not many from the third... minas Tirith was mapped, and Isengard (i think) but I don't remember seeing a map of moria. Does anyone own this book?

Regards to all,

Osse

Estel'sAngel · 02-11-2004, 11:53 PM

I actually don't think there's a map of Moria. That would be neat if there was one though. Be helpful. I'd like to know where some of the places are located exactly.

Gollum followed them a few days. We know that much. And the next we hear of him, he's seen following them to Lorien and then again at Lorien. Perhaps once he realized which exit they were heading to, he got ahead of them. I don't know. That's my thought.

Trippo The Hippo · 02-12-2004, 12:18 AM

I think its important to note that Gollum had lived in moria a very long time and I think if anyone could find a quick exit out of moria it was him.

02-03-2004, 08:54 AM	#1
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	Gollum exiting Moria Hello Downers. As we all know, Gollum pursued the fellowship from the west gate of Moria, all the way to the east. However, he is able to continue his pursuit outside of Moria... my point is this; When Gandalf fought the Balrog, he cast the bridge of Kazad-dum into the abyss- How did gollum get across?? The only possible conclusion is that he had lost the fellowship at the chamber of Marzubal, and knowing of their destination, had crossed the bridge and waited for them outside. This is perhaps the case, but perhaps there is something I have missed, in tolkien's letters for instance? in regards to this topic? Regards, looking forward to any other possible conclusions, Osse __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

02-03-2004, 09:57 AM	#3
ainur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Minneapolis MN Posts: 72	I keyed in "Gollum Moria" on the search function and found a dozen threads. They all speculate on how Gollum exited Moria and followed the Fellowship into Lorien. He may have passed ahead of them while they tarried in the Chamber of Mazarbul and crossed the bridge and exited the east gate ahead of them, trying to cut them off. He may have followed the orcs after the fall of Gandalf and the Balrog. He may have found an air-shaft to crawl out while all these other things were going on. I didn't find anything that quoted Tolkien on how he got out. It's true that the Fellowship tarried in Lorien for quite some time, but Gollum was there the very first night that they were. He tried to approach Frodo as he slept in the tree, but was scared off by Haldir and the other Lorien elves. However he got out, he reached the borders of Lorien approximately the same time as the orcs that pursued the Fellowship. __________________ Yet all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

02-03-2004, 04:57 PM	#6
Kidd2323 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 44	I must agree with Secret Fire, because Gollum wasn't immediately on the Fellowship's trail, but was seen by the elves as following the orcs into Lorien. So it stands to reason that he followed them out of Moria, and I am certain that the orcs had such an intimate knowledge of the mines that they knew every possible hole out of which to crawl, and it had been a long time since the dwarves actually ruled Moria as a whole, so the orcs could have made alternative exits. It would be neat though if Tolkien had described them. __________________ "I wish I could go all the way with you to Rivendell, Mr. Frodo, and see Mr. Bilbo," said Sam. "And yet the only place I really want to be in is here. I am that torn in two." "Poor Sam! It will feel like that, I am afraid. " said Frodo. "But you will be healed. You were meant to be solid and whole, and you will be."

02-03-2004, 07:21 PM	#7
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	That is not correct, Frodo saw gollum following them, the night they escaped from moria, within four miles of the east gate. That said, he didnt follow the orcs out... and he must of lost them in the events of Marzubal, and gone ahead to catch them as they exited. __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

02-04-2004, 09:16 AM	#9
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	As there are no accurate maps of Kazad-Dum, we'll just have to be content pondering! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] In the book; Maps of Middle-earth, I seem to remember all the maps from the first age, but not many from the third... minas Tirith was mapped, and Isengard (i think) but I don't remember seeing a map of moria. Does anyone own this book? Regards to all, Osse __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

02-03-2004, 09:24 AM	#2
Althern Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: A twin city divided by a great river... must be Osgiliath Posts: 50	The Bridge of Khazad-dum may be the only exit from Moria to the east. That is, the only exit if you wanted to walk out. I recall that the book mentions that there are shafts in the chamber of Mazarbul and other places that allow natural light into the caverns; Gollum could have climbed one of these and ended up on the mountainside. Then again, he could always take the endless stair, walk to the top and climb down the mountain. The Fellowship tarried in Lorien for some time...

02-04-2004, 06:00 AM	#8
Althern Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: A twin city divided by a great river... must be Osgiliath Posts: 50	Yes, yes, I’d forgotten that Gollum was so soon on the Fellowship’s trail after exiting Moria. So much for being flippant. Still, it is clear that the bridge is not the only way out, as the pursuing orcs managed to do so relatively quickly. It would therefore be reasonable to assume that Gollum exited via one of those, most likely after the Fellowship has left, but the exact nature of the exit remains (and will remain) mere speculation.

02-11-2004, 11:53 PM	#10
Estel'sAngel Newly Deceased Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: California and Texas Posts: 10	I actually don't think there's a map of Moria. That would be neat if there was one though. Be helpful. I'd like to know where some of the places are located exactly. Gollum followed them a few days. We know that much. And the next we hear of him, he's seen following them to Lorien and then again at Lorien. Perhaps once he realized which exit they were heading to, he got ahead of them. I don't know. That's my thought. __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost;

02-12-2004, 12:18 AM	#11
Trippo The Hippo Wight Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: somewhere with hippos that say jolly o and wear spectacles Posts: 199	I think its important to note that Gollum had lived in moria a very long time and I think if anyone could find a quick exit out of moria it was him. __________________ Shouldn't he be the disco steward?