The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-26-2002, 05:21 PM   #1
Mirkgirl
Haunting Spirit
 
Mirkgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 84
Mirkgirl has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via Skype™ to Mirkgirl
Sting The significance of Merry and Pippin - the real hobbit ambassadors

When the theme is Merry’s importance the usual argument is Witch King. I’ve seen a lot of polls and threads arguing who actually killed the Witch King. I won't go into that 'murki' water, my goal is simply to emphasize on the link between Merry and the Nazgul through the whole book.

First of all we have the vital role of Merry in the beginning, he basically saved the absolutely unprepared journey (walk is the word maybe).

In the book we have three grand evils - Sauron, Saruman and the Nazgul, or the Witch-King in particular. If we link Sauron to Frodo and Saruman to Gandalf as direct oppositions, we have the Nazgul and?
Aragorn - that would spoil the idea of him as the one who must gather all the men and lead them against the dark lord.
Boromir is out of the game, Legolas and Gimli are representing their people and this task would overburden the character.
Eowyn is a good choice, but after all we need a fellowship member.
And so Merry is the perfect choice.

Merry and the Nazgul are deeply bounded throughout the book - first he is mistaken for one, which represents them as poles. Then he has a close encounter with a Nazgul in Bree. Also he's the first one to notice the Nazgul from Weathertop, but that's not so important.

And the amusing play with prophecy - first, not man but woman, second not man but hobbit, third not one but two...

One other frequently debated question is Pippin and Merry.
Yes, I see a lot of duality in these two. The way I see it that the two other hobbits represented the adventurous spirit of hobbits - Merry for the more mature and responsible one and Pippin for the touching enthusiasm, that is so appealing in the young ones. So there was no need IMO to separate the characters who are just the two sides of the same coin.

We have the two rulers death and especially they are the rulers of two strongly connected countries. The two fellow countries as we see from UT where is the tale where Cirion gives Eorl land to establish his country in new, better land paying back for his aid against the Colessairs(sp).

Here we have something which is strange at first glance - the older country, the main as we might say has a secretly mad ruler, who is discovered in public just when he crosses the line. While the new one has a ruler whose insanity is well seen and able to cover. I'm not forgetting that Gondor does not have its rightful ruler, but a Steward but that's not something that important as the only thing that holds the rulers being still Stewards after all those years is the single fact that this is Gondor (and maybe someone wise, name Galadriel, Gandalf?) and even Cirion is a Steward, the twelfth ruling. So this is a way to show how the older the established country is better in everything, even in covering the problems, which makes it harder to be helped.

The old and the new country have something to do with Merry and Pippin, I'm haven't lost the main as you might think. Pippin being the representative of young is in the old country, in Gondor and, as we see, he's the one who saves the country from the ruler, who suffers from the side effects of the established ruler whose problems are ignored because they cannot exist. So the old has something to study from the young one, even though for Pippin for the young one, the encounter is a lesson which he learns, and not teaches.

We cannot say that Merry, the most mature from the four hobbits (sorry all, it's not Frodo) has exactly the same relationship with the younger country, Rohan taken with the opposite sign. He just has the proper environment for him not be burdened with the country's (ruler's) troubles more than being... a friend. So infront of him lies the opportunity to be a hero in the actual battle.

Now I'd like just to say one more thing on this, though the post is way too long already and thought I have a lot more to say at the same time. Merry and Pippin are the actual representatives of the hobbits, of the hobbits' spirit - the spirit of friendship mainly. Because Frodo is burdened with a responsibility, which demands a lot of character but it is not so evident for the hobbits as whole. And Sam is the servant, other feelings trigger his actions. Merry and Pippin are the friends, who'd go anywhere for the friendship (and this was so neglected in the movie btw. I can't go without a critic to the movie, you know) and for the inner lust for adventures too. That's what explains their growth in height too - they are the next evolution step of hobbits, they are the selected ones who have to improve the species (way too biological I know).

(A bit pointless maybe, but don’t be too harsh I like Literature classes (; )
__________________
"Hobbits! Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer behind this."
Mirkgirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2002, 07:55 PM   #2
Ransom
Wight
 
Ransom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Some randomn dorm in Pittsburgh
Posts: 231
Ransom has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Ransom
Sting

Quote:
...Merry, the most mature from the four hobbits...
I have not yet seen this line of reasoning....would you care to explain? (I'm curious.)

On the conclusions that Merry and Pippin are the next step in hobbit evolution, I would have to disagree. It appears that the cause of their growth was the entwater, not any changes to their DNA.
__________________
"The blood of the dead mixes with the the flowing sand and grants more power to the killer."--Gaara of the Desert
Ransom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2002, 08:22 PM   #3
Marileangorifurnimaluim
Eerie Forest Spectre
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction
Posts: 798
Marileangorifurnimaluim has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

First I thought you were nuts. Then I thought you were kidding, making an elaborate and rather funny take on our over-thought discussions here in the Downs. Finally I realized that english is a second language for you. Could you condense what you are trying to say? It may make it more clear. So far, because of misused and absent prepositions primarily I believe, it is difficult to follow what you mean.

Thanks, Maril [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?
Marileangorifurnimaluim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2002, 02:30 PM   #4
Eruwen
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 901
Eruwen has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

Ok...that was very interresting. But I would have to disagree with you on alot of that. Although you made some very very good points in that. So, first of all,

Quote:
Merry and the Nazgul are deeply bounded throughout the book
I don't really get what you mean by that. You lost me comletely on that one. Could you explain a little more, Please??

Quote:
Merry for the more mature and responsible one
Uh, wasn't it Merry AND Pippin who always got into trouble? I thought Frodo was the most responsible and mature. For instance, he was older and had alot more knowledge of everything. And Frodo just seemed to be one of the only Hobbits knowing what he was doing through the whole trip.

Quote:
Merry and Pippin are the actual representatives of the hobbits, of the hobbits' spirit - the spirit of friendship mainly
This one is the one I have to disagree with. Frodo and Sam are the ones I thought showed the most love for friendship. I mean, Sam practically carried Frodo up Mt. Doom. And when Frodo was captured by the Orcs, Sam risked his life just to save him. And I'm not even going to mention the whole Shelob thing. Cause that's just pure friendship in itself. Yes, Merry and Pippin did show a good friendship between each other. But I think Frodo and Sam were the ones who showed it even more.
__________________________

Other than those, I kinda got what you mean. And I'm not trying to argue or anything with you, Mirkgirl. I was just posting my opinion on what I thought. And I'm sorry if you possibly take some of the things I say personally, cause I didn't mean them to be a comment against what you're veiwpoint is. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Eruwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2002, 07:27 PM   #5
Rumil
Sage & Onions
 
Rumil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
Rumil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Boots

Nice topic Mirkgirl, (I don't think you're appreciably madder than anyone else here [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

It's struck me before now that at the start of the journey Merry does seem to have some authority over the other hobbits. Perhaps its because he's on 'home ground' round Buckleberry ferry, Buckland and the outskirts of the Old Forest. He also appears to be leader of the 'conspiracy unmasked'.

Later on this authority is less evident (although he didn't go throwing stones into wells in Moria like that fool of a Took!). When abducted by the Uruk Hai, Pippin shows the greater resourcefulness in devising an escape plan, but then Merry demonstrates that he has put his time in Rivendell to good use by remebering the map of the area.
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion
Rumil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2004, 04:15 AM   #6
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Nice topic, Mirkgirl, and very original rendering of the issue.

I'd simply like to add that, even with everything above, there is more direct stress to Merry and Pippin, which falls upon the 'salvation' of Boromir, his release from the grip Ring has on him:

According to Gandalf:

Quote:
'Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake. But that is not the only part they have to play. They were brought to Fangorn, and their coming was like the falling of small stones that starts an avalanche in the mountains.

And, of course, already mentioned Saruman. The rendering of the episode in the movie is ugly to my liking - making Treebeard look quite a silly character, but I believe that PJ managed to grasp the essense - if not Merry and Pippin, Orthank would have survived (or would have fallen to Ents anyway, but not at the precise and crucial moment of battle at the Helm's Deep)
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2004, 08:25 AM   #7
Mirkgirl
Haunting Spirit
 
Mirkgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 84
Mirkgirl has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via Skype™ to Mirkgirl
I have almost forgotten this... thanks for bringing it back to live H-I (:

I agree with what you said. I think I kind of ignored the hobbits influence on Boro... but of course Tolkien's characters are complicated and there's always more to... speculate. I have to say I agree on all you said about the scene in the movie, both the good and the bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransom
I have not yet seen this line of reasoning....would you care to explain? (I'm curious.)
I believe Rumil answered that question (:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransom
On the conclusions that Merry and Pippin are the next step in hobbit evolution, I would have to disagree. It appears that the cause of their growth was the entwater, not any changes to their DNA.
I'm not going into biology here... but still I think that it's rather likely something changing the height of a mamal to change its DNA too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marileangorifurnimaluim
First I thought you were nuts. Then I thought you were kidding, making an elaborate and rather funny take on our over-thought discussions here in the Downs. Finally I realized that english is a second language for you. Could you condense what you are trying to say? It may make it more clear. So far, because of misused and absent prepositions primarily I believe, it is difficult to follow what you mean.
I never hid that I was nuts (: Other than that, I'm sorry, I try to use proper English, but it's not so easy as it seems for native speaker. Especially as English is not my only foreign language.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eruwen
I don't really get what you mean by that. You lost me comletely on that one. Could you explain a little more, Please??
Well actually I don't think I can... it's just the examples I gave...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirkgirl
first he is mistaken for one, which represents them as poles. Then he has a close encounter with a Nazgul in Bree. Also he's the first one to notice the Nazgul from Weathertop, but that's not so important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eruwen
Uh, wasn't it Merry AND Pippin who always got into trouble?
mmmm thanks PJ is all I'm going to say (: It's actually Frodo's youth stealing things from farmer Maggot you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eruwen
This one is the one I have to disagree with. Frodo and Sam are the ones I thought showed the most love for friendship.
Well as I said, the main trigger for Sam is, at least in the beginning, the servent following the master. I don't mean to diminish his feelings in any way, but it's a fact that he is a servent and his love is (or at leasts starts as) kind of dog devotion. There's nothing wrong with it, but still it's not pure friendship to start with. Sam goes as a servent, Merry and Pippin go as friends. Am I being even more confusing? :/
__________________
"Hobbits! Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer behind this."
Mirkgirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2004, 07:02 AM   #8
Selmo
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom
Posts: 273
Selmo has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Like Mirkgirl, I too have always considered Merry to be the most mature and thoughtful of the four hobbits in the Fellowship, despite being younger than Sam and Frodo.

In the early chapters, Merry is the planner. Frodo seems to think that he can set out to walk to Rivendell with little thought or preparation. It's Merry who makes the house at Crickhollow available, it's Merry who arranges for Fatty Bolger to stay in the house to give the impression that Frodo stays there and it's Merry who organises transport for the party and provisions for the journey. He gives thought to the little things too, like having three baths ready so that Frodo, Sam and Pippin don't have to wait their turn to get cleaned up.
After Merry and Pippin are separated, Pippin offers his sword to Denethor on impulse; Merry gives his fealty to Theoden only after some thought, because he has come to love the old King.
In the closing chapters, Pippin plays the impetuous Lieutenent to Merry's thoughtful General. Pippin rushes off to gather troops from Tookborough while Merry takes command at Bywater, planning his campaign with Farmer Cotton.

We should not be surprised that Merry shows the most maturity. Sam, before the War, had little responsibility other than looking after the garden at Bag End. Frodo, with his inherited wealth, had nothing to do except study Elvish, write poetry and dream. Pippin was too young (under 33) to take on the burden of being heir to the Thain. Merry, however, was of age and would have been expected to take part in the running of Buckland. He was being trained in organisational and leadership skills in a way the others were not.
Selmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2004, 11:59 PM   #9
ninlaith
Wight
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: in my hobbit hole
Posts: 204
ninlaith has just left Hobbiton.
If you read interviews with Sir Tolkien close enough you recognize that these stories are all about love in friendship. Merry and Pippin portrayed a second element of love and devotion inside a friendship. They were more than friends but they were also more than brothers. I still cannot find the word for their type of friendship. Just undescribable. They had a deep understanding of one another. Merry may have been the so-called "more mature one" but Pippin had shown his quality many a time when the need came about. They looked out for one another. Billy Boyd portrayed the precise emotion that I imagined Pippin would when he was separated from Merry for what he knew could possibly be forever. Watch the movie, look for that emotion on each of their faces and you'll see the exact meaning of true friendship.
ninlaith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2004, 12:39 PM   #10
Lyta_Underhill
Haunted Halfling
 
Lyta_Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules
Posts: 844
Lyta_Underhill has just left Hobbiton.
Various Thoughts and Ernil i Pheriannath Revisited

Quote:
I'm not going into biology here... but still I think that it's rather likely something changing the height of a mamal to change its DNA too.
I do not believe the DNA itself would change; if that were so, then Merry's and Pippin's children would all carry this rogue "Entwater" gene and many would be giants. I don't remember Tolkien mentioning that Faramir Took was a giant... (But he can't mention everything.) Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but to change a creature's DNA once it has come to maturity would be akin to introducing a virus into their system. I would think simply that the Ent Draught worked on certain hormonal systems in the hobbits and triggered a latent response, i.e., growing taller. Also, I'd think that, in the real world, both Merry and Pippin would have terrible joint problems as a result from the strain!

But that's neither here nor there, I suppose!
Quote:
We should not be surprised that Merry shows the most maturity. Sam, before the War, had little responsibility other than looking after the garden at Bag End. Frodo, with his inherited wealth, had nothing to do except study Elvish, write poetry and dream. Pippin was too young (under 33) to take on the burden of being heir to the Thain.
Quote:
In the early chapters, Merry is the planner. Frodo seems to think that he can set out to walk to Rivendell with little thought or preparation. It's Merry who makes the house at Crickhollow available, it's Merry who arranges for Fatty Bolger to stay in the house to give the impression that Frodo stays there and it's Merry who organises transport for the party and provisions for the journey.
You make good points, Selmo, especially concerning the necessary progression of Merry's responsibilities within the Shire. He is indeed showing his fitness to become Master of Buckland one day, and at his age that is proper and expected. I imagine that many Brandybucks of Merry's age would be thinking of the same thing, but Merry proves a greater aptitude for those necessary requirements to being eventual Top Brandybuck.

Pippin would not be thinking of such things yet, as he is about at the stage of development Frodo has reached when Frodo concentrated on stealing Farmer Maggot's mushrooms and escaping his dogs! Pippin was a brash wanderer, a true heir to the Tookish strain of hobbit. He did not plan and his contribution to the unfolding "conspiracy" was to guide Frodo and Sam through the back roads in his neck of the Shire. Escaping the travelled roads and foiling the Nazgul took quick thought, and Pippin was an extremely talented navigator as far as his known territory. Also, he had an easy way with the inhabitants. Think of what comical fear we could have seen on Frodo's part if Pippin had not been there to greet Farmer Maggot!

Quote:
Merry and the Nazgul are deeply bounded throughout the book - first he is mistaken for one, which represents them as poles. Then he has a close encounter with a Nazgul in Bree. Also he's the first one to notice the Nazgul from Weathertop, but that's not so important.
Interesting theory, Mirkgirl (and great thread too!); I am not sure about "bonding" but perhaps there is a significance to Merry having a lot of "contact" with the Nazgul, being the only member of the Fellowship to take the Black Breath twice!

Quote:
I'd simply like to add that, even with everything above, there is more direct stress to Merry and Pippin, which falls upon the 'salvation' of Boromir, his release from the grip Ring has on him
Excellent point bringing in Boromir here, HI! This is one area I thought that PJ showed well, the interactions and play between Merry and Pippin and Boromir in Fellowship and then the echo of the valorous fall of Boromir as Pippin pledges his fealty to Denethor and Gondor in ROTK.

Another interesting parallel is the nature of the friendships and the direct outcomes of such with Merry and Theoden and Pippin and Denethor. As a matter of fact, I find it ironic and pleasing to think on the legend of Ernil i Pheriannath in Gondor, that when the Riders of Rohan came to Gondor's aid, each would carry with him a Halfling warrior! Both Rohan and Gondor could not have done better with 500 men in the place of Merry and Pippin alone, I think! So, in that way, the acts of friendship of these two hobbits were not only personal (Merry for Theoden and Eowyn and Pippin for Faramir and Beregond) but the effects of these acts were legendary. Perhaps Ernil i Pheriannath can apply not only to Pippin who inspired it, but also for Merry!

On another note, let us not forget the small and large acts of friendship of Frodo and Sam. In a direct way with Sam and in a rather serendipitous, providential way with Frodo, the small acts of kindness of these two dealt the final blow to the Darkness. It is, I think, a Light characteristic of hobbits in general but is amplified in the four of the Fellowship.

Cheers!
Lyta
__________________
“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”
Lyta_Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 08:31 PM   #11
Encaitare
Bittersweet Symphony
 
Encaitare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 2,033
Encaitare is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Very interesting thread! True, Merry is quite mature; he thinks ahead more than any of the other hobbits do. I love the "Prince of the Halflings" bit as well; it's amazing what a tiny grammatical difference (Pippin using the familiar "you" of the Common Speech rather than the formal to speak to Denethor) can do for you!
Encaitare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2004, 10:38 PM   #12
ninlaith
Wight
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: in my hobbit hole
Posts: 204
ninlaith has just left Hobbiton.
Pip and Merry had great significance in my thinking. I realize I already have a post but I just like to emphasize how well written they really are, not meaning to exclude all of the other amazing characters. They brought the extreme importance of friendship into the story.
__________________
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!"-Bilbo Baggins
ninlaith is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:47 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.