The Lord of the Bible?

[The Only Real Estel]

First off, I very much like your 'cloud castle' analogy, davem, because it was imaginative.

Second off, I want to make a few comments on it.

Going on the assumption that by 'castles' you mean Christianity & by 'cloud' you mean LotR, which is correct unless I am sadly mistaken:

Originally Posted by davem

Ok. You look at a particularly impressive cloud formation & 'see' a castle. That's fine. However, if you then go on to claim there is something specifically 'castle-like' about that cloud, that it is necessary to know about castles in order to understand/appreciate that cloud...

I totally agree. However I don't think anyone is saying that it is necessary to know about Christianity to appreciate The Lord of the Rings. That would be utterly ridiculous. Even in a so clearly allegorical tale as The Chronicles of Narnia the reader doesn't need to know a thing about Christianity/Catholicism to appreciate the story. Would the reader appreciate it more if he did? Possibly. That lies in the individuality of the reader.

Originally Posted by davem

...that that cloud can tell you anything about castles, or that only someone with a knowledge of castles can understand what that cloud really is I will argue with you, because I think we would no longer be dealing with a matter of personal opinion but a wrong opinion (& frankly a silly opinion).

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that LotR can tell you about Christianity (or any other religion for that matter). And certainly no one is saying you must have knowledge of Christianity/Catholicism to understand the books!

Originally Posted by davem

To claim that only someone who believes that cloud castles are a real possibility has any valid opinion on clouds is not logical

Or to rephrase it (according to your own comparison: "To claim that only someone who believes that cloud castles (Christian themes in Tolkien) are a real possibility has any valid opinion on clouds (The Lord of the Rings) is not logical." Now I have no idea if that's the course you originally meant your comparison to go or not but I have to say I completely disagree with that.

Originally Posted by davem

to think that believing in cloud castles means you will have a deeper experience of that cloud than someone who doesn't believe in them is a bit smug (as well as wrong).

I don't think people finding 'Christian themes' in Tolkien's work & so insisting they have a deeper experience of the books than you is really the issue here - because I don't think that's even remotely a problem. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Originally Posted by davem

I'm sure he believed (ie convinced himself ) they were. Which means nothing as far as the works themselves are concerned. They are certainly 'vaguely Christian' but they are also 'vaguely' many other things.

Certainly! Is Christianity the only vague theme in Tolkien's book? Of course not. Forbid it if anyone should try to say that. But it was my understanding that at least this thread was created to talk about the 'vaguely Christian' them of the books. I have no problem with that as long as parallels aren't being wildly drawn with no regard to discuss brought against it.

Originally Posted by davem

Or we could just read & enjoy the story as a story, stop trying to second guess, impose meanings, foist our own belief systems on the work & generally try & make it serve our own purposes…

*Raise your hand if you don't enjoy the story as a story*

Alright now *raise your hand if you've spent hours pouring over the text trying to pick out meaning & parallels, twisting everything in sight to make it 'serve your own purposes.'*

Are there those that might do that? Are there those Christians that you remarked about that try too hard to find things in the book 'just to get us all back in church?' Probably so. That's unfortunate, but like you said that will happen in many different circles (WWII, atom bomb, etc.). Discussing possible Christian themes is not equal to the charges you levied in that statement, davem.

However as long as the discussion here doesn't venture off into ridiculous twisting or using the thread to evangelize I don't see what the worry is. Christianity was not the theme of the books, but it is at least arguable that it can be found (without too much trouble) in the books.

And discussing things you've found (or think you've found) in the books is not in place of enjoying them it is a part of enjoying them.