The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-08-2009, 04:33 PM   #1
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,355
Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Inevitability of death (revisited)

OK, this is my first attempt at necromancy, conjuring up a dead thread from the underworld.
I just stumbled over davem's old thread 'Its about death, the inevitability of death' (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5898), a truly fascinating read. One aspect that activated my little grey cells was this:
Quote:
The Undying Lands are the most 'unnatural' of all places. In nature birth, growth, maturity & death, evolution from state to state, is the natural process.
Indeed, within the circles of this world as we know it every living thing (even plants) feeds on the death and decay of other living things; which makes me wonder: supposing that nothing ever dies and decays in the Undying Lands, what do trees and other plants in Aman grow on and draw nourishment from? (To give the question a slightly absurd twist, are we to suppose that Huan lived on a vegetarian diet before being given to Celegorm and migrating to Middle-Earth?) Did the Professor really think this through?
But there's more to it. I don't have Morgoth's Ring at hand to check (as usual), but somehow I got the impression from it that Aman was the last remnant of Arda Unmarred in this world, the only part of the world not tainted by Morgoth (or at least the thing coming closest to AU), and that death and decay were introduced into the world by the Marrer. I may be mistaken in this (in which case I would gladly see my misconception demolished), but if I'm not, AU would have been a stranger world than we can imagine - a world in which nothing ever would have died, except for Men???
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 04:56 PM   #2
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalė
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,330
Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
I'm afraid there's a blatant answer to your question and that is that the prof had no idea of those kind of things modern biology tells us - or didn't bother about thinking of them in relation to his mythology; they are not something to concern a person writing a mythology anyway.

But the world "after the fall" looks like familiar post-books of Moses-world where the humans have fallen to the primordial sin and everything's different from the paradise that once was... Maybe decaying had no part in the natural renewal of the nature in the West?
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 06:22 PM   #3
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,355
Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogrod View Post
I'm afraid there's a blatant answer to your question and that is that the prof had no idea of those kind of things modern biology tells us
You don't have to study modern biology to realize the importance of decay and biological recycling; the slightest interest in gardening will shove it into your face, and every human being who has ever tilled the soil has known about it from experience ever since the neolithic revolution.
You're right, of course, mentioning the Fall and primordial sin in this context. For me, as a non-Christian, the dream of a pre-Fall paradise without death (and its possible restoration after Judgment Day?) is one of the most fascinating, as well as one of the most puzzling, aspects of Christianity. Judging from his writings on Aman, I get the impression that JRRT somehow shared this dream (even though he criticized the Elves for trying to realize it within the Fallen World of Middle-Earth). On the other hand, from everything else he wrote I get the impression of somebody who had a very close, personal, emotional and realistic (whatever that may mean) relationship with nature as we know it; and I just don't know how to fit these two aspects together (or, what is the same, I wonder how they fitted together in his mind, if he was at all conscious of the problem).
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 06:39 PM   #4
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Very interesting thread. What if we posit that none of the beings or entities or artifacts or anything else is actually 'physical?' What if they are more energy-like than matter-like? Maybe this is why Aman would be deadly to those mortals that were tied to the physical world - elves could leave and pick up their physical husks at the door, at will, maybe.

Don't have the equations in front of me either, but what if we could remove 'time' from every physics/mathematical description of the world? Yes, I know I'm just throwing words up into the air, hoping that when they land there's some order to them.

As this question relates to Creationism, I've always found it somewhat amusing the pretzels that must be twisted to allow for Adam, Eve and other animals and plants to live - to consume and release energy - yet not allow for any decay in Paradise's Garden.

Ah, without E. coli, many things not named 'rose' would smell just as sweet.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 07:28 PM   #5
Ibrīnišilpathānezel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Ibrīnišilpathānezel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 743
Ibrīnišilpathānezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Ibrīnišilpathānezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I myself have wondered about certain contradictions in a truly "deathless" Valinor. The Ainur and Elves may reproduce little or not at all, but what about the flora and fauna? It seemed an odd thing to me, until I remembered that Melkor marred the Music even before Ea was created. If Ea, and Arda, are indeed the Music made manifest, precisely as it was sung, then it never was "perfect." Melkor's attempts to make it wholly his own after the Ainur entered Ea certainly made things worse, but as Men were also a part of the Music (and presumably their Gift as well), then I would think death has always been a part of the world made from the Song. Tolkien did also make it clear that Valinor itself was not really deathless, but that the presence of the immortal Powers gave the place its apparent lack of death and decay. The very power that makes Aman seem immortal and unchanging would present a danger to mortals (as the flame that attracts moths also kills them, as I believe was noted in the Akallabeth). Men, especially those who strayed from their belief in Eru, feared death, and thus anything that seems to have what they can't -- eternal physical life -- is seen as being perfect. Aman appears to be a paradise, but for those who live there, it's really a gilded cage. The Elves and Ainur cannot die and leave the circles of the world, as Men do (Elves because they were made that way, the Ainur because they are bound to remain within Ea until its end), and Tolkien did say that before the end, even they would grow weary of life and its burden. So you really have two sides that eventually will envy and covet what the other has, immortality and death.

Well, that's how it all seems to me, at any rate.
__________________
Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :)
Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill
Ibrīnišilpathānezel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 07:40 PM   #6
Tuor in Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,651
Tuor in Gondolin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via Yahoo to Tuor in Gondolin
Quote:
Tolkien did also make it clear that Valinor itself was not really deathless, but that the presence of the immortal Powers gave the place its apparent lack of death and decay. The very power that makes Aman seem immortal and unchanging would present a danger to mortals (as the flame that attracts moths also kills them, as I believe was noted in the Akallabeth).
This could also relate to Luthien's speeded up
life caused by wearing a silmaril.

And did Valinor have seasons? Without them I'd think it would
be relatively uninteresting, like living (long-term) in a boring
climate like Hawaii. I'd much prefer somewhere like Minnesota
or Argentina to Hawaii climate wise, especially if you're there
elfwise for milennia.
__________________
The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'
Tuor in Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2009, 11:16 AM   #7
skip spence
shadow of a doubt
 
skip spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,143
skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
Indeed, within the circles of this world as we know it every living thing (even plants) feeds on the death and decay of other living things; which makes me wonder: supposing that nothing ever dies and decays in the Undying Lands, what do trees and other plants in Aman grow on and draw nourishment from?
I don't have time to check this up or elaborate much on it, but I think it's a misconception that nothing ever died in Aman. I believe the Elves hunted even in Aman, and that there were predatory animals doing what predatory animals do too. Probably no flesh-eating maggots, centipedes, leeches or cockroaches though, I should hope. No, everything just passed very slowly and gracefully, if I remember correctly, and there were no disease or deformation - much like in Plato's world of ideas everything was in its ideal state. You couldn't find a single discolouration on a green leaf even if you searched all your life for one. There certainly were seasons though, and crops such as wheat was cultivated and presumably cut down and processed too.

I remember reading somewhere that the natural life of say a flower or a bee would also be much prolonged in the hallowed Aman compared to the outside world however, and that a mortal man would seem to whither away very quickly compared to other things in hallowed Aman, although his life wouldn't actually be cut short.
__________________
"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan

Last edited by skip spence; 03-09-2009 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Added a few things I initially forgot
skip spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:02 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.