Predictions for Return of the King

[Carrûn]

My prediction is that it will be better than TTT, not as good as it might be, but still a satisfactory representation of Tolkien's book onscreen.<P>That said, if Eru could here me I would ask for the Rangers to be in, even if they speak no lines. Even elves who follow Aragorn. Just please please please no Arwen bringing Aragorn the sword and riding with him on the Paths of the Dead, etc. I liked Liv Tyler's portrayal of her character in TTT and I hope it stays the same in ROTK.

[Alaggaeriel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm very encouraged when I hear him say it will be as long as necessary. Really, how many of us will be arguing if it's 4 hours long? Not me!! <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If they make it 4 hours long I am so hoping for an intermission for bathroom breaks! I almost went into kidney failure during TTT!

[doug*platypus]

Oh, man, the Gollum jumping thing is starting to worry me a little, now. Damn you guys! To tell the truth, I always thought the book version was a little unlikely - he capers too close to the edge and slips? Come on, that's not very convincing, really. Maybe the filmmakers have come up with a more plausible (and probably cheesy) way for Gollum to perish. Even an earthquake would have been better, I think.<P>Are there any changes that could make you guys walk out of the theatre in disgust? I'm guessing probably not, but I'd be interested to hear about your worst case scenarios.

[Liriodendron]

Hmmmm, the "Smeagol jumping" idea is intriguing! Would he jump because he knew the ring was evil, and hated what it has done to him? Or maybe, he has "feelings" for Frodo/Master, and sees the horrible number the ring has done on his only "friend", and jumps out of love???? Smeagol, the sad hero, instead of Gollum, the accidental hero??? I could go with that!

[HCIsland]

I just think it will be too tempting for PJ to redeem Gollum a bit at the end, and I can't really say a disappove. With all the rotten things he does (man, he kills his best bud while the Ring is still wet from coming out of the water) there's still a part of me that feels for him.<P>I just think PJ will have Smeagol take control right at the end, and have that one moment of clearity where he sees what he is. To mention nothing of the fact the Eye of Sauron would be solidly trained on him. If done right, it can make a beautiful climax.<P>H.C.

[The Saucepan Man]

NO! Surely it cannot be. If Frodo can't throw the Ring in (assuming that this is how it is portrayed in the film), how on earth can it be believable that Gollum will be able to? The whole point is that, as Gandalf predicts, Gollum does have his part to play, but he does so unwittingly.<P>And anyway, wouldn't Gollum just throw the Ring in, rather than jump in, if he felt that way inclined. OK, so he might of been destroyed along with the Ring anyway, but he wasn't necessarily to know that.

[Liriodendron]

Hmmm, that certainly makes sense Saucepan, I guess we are back to falling in. Oh boy! I just can't wait! Sam yelling "FRODO!", Gollum yelling "PRECIOUS!", I wonder if it will be "slo mo"?

[Aratlithiel]

Although I got my rearend burned for being optimistic about TTT, I have not yet learned my lesson and believe that at least the Mount Doom scene will remain true. The only reason I think this is because the dialogue about the Ring being treacherous was left in and since PJ sliced out everything else that I thought was pretty relevent, I have to believe that he left this particular tidbit in for a reason. (Certainly don't want to waste valuable screen time on the whole reason for the movie when there's a one-chapter battle scene you can stretch out over 3 hours.) Do I sound bitter? I don't sound bitter, do I?<P>Besides, he's already turned Frodo into a total wimp/victim - it will be very believable to the general non-reading public that he can't do the final toss.

[doug*platypus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I just think it will be too tempting for PJ to redeem Gollum a bit at the end, and I can't really say a disappove. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> man, he kills his best bud while the Ring is still wet from coming out of the water <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Quite right, he does. The wages of sin is death. The book is chock full of just desserts to people like Saruman, Isildur, Sméagol, Wormtongue. There isn't a single bad guy that goes unpunished, I don't think. If the Petester makes Sméagol consciously helpful at the end, it will be yet another lighthearted change without regard to the bigger picture. I'm getting more and more pessimistic about this scene now, since the book version doesn't seem very Hollywood. Maybe Sam will get fired up and shove Gollum in. Or they'll do the old cliché where the baddie falls and the goodie tries to save them, only to have them slip away.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Certainly don't want to waste valuable screen time on the whole reason for the movie when there's a one-chapter battle scene you can stretch out over 3 hours. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oooh - scathing! Meow! Hiss! Totally deserved, though. Same with the new Star Wars movies, the editors of FOTR and probably TTT sacrificed important plot and character development for the more expensive battle and special effects/costume scenes. Thanks to you, Aratlithiel, I now have a mental image of PJ crouched over a can of film with the label "Helm's Deep" saying "It's mine! My own... my love... my... precioussss!"

[HCIsland]

Minor prediction.<P>In the book, when Merry stabs the Nazgul, his sword "unknits" (I believe that is the word that was used) the wraith because it was an ancient sword that he picked up in the Barrow Downs.<P>Of course, the Barrow Downs is out of the film. Instead he got an elven dagger in the special edition of the Fellowship, when he only got a belt in the book. It seems the elven dagger will replace the Barrow Downs sword in RoTK.<P>H.C.

[InklingElf]

Well for me, I think the movie will have double the anticipation than TT considering that it's the third and last movie...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hmmm, that certainly makes sense Saucepan, I guess we are back to falling in. Oh boy! I just can't wait! Sam yelling "FRODO!", Gollum yelling "PRECIOUS!", I wonder if it will be "slo mo"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ieeey I hope it won't be that awkward, if you know what I mean I

[HCIsland]

Funny, I was kinda bored on the weekend and started going through the stuff that is on the second disk of the theatrical FoTR DVD once again. Didn't realize how many shots from the trailers and the Two Towers preview may actually be in RoTK.<P>Teaser One: <BR>There is a massive shot of marching orcs in daylight bearing the red eye of Sauron. This is obviouly for RoTK. Likely going to the Planes of Pelennor.<P>There is a shot of Merry kneeling before Theoden at Edoras.<P>Final Trailer:<BR>There is a shot of orcs on a ridge under gloomy skies with massive troops on the planes below. There are fires and looks like a battle field. Again, prehaps Pelennor Fields or outside of the Black Gates. I didn't notice any buildings in the shot.<P>Two Towers Preview:<BR>Daytime establishing shot of Helm's Deep which is obviously after the battle because of the gaping breach in the Deeping Well wall. It seems for sure that we return to Helm's Deep at least briefly.<P>H.C.

[Ainaserkewen]

Hey, I wonder if they're going to exibit some of Frodo's flesh in the scene where Sam finds him in the tower completely naked.<BR>If so, there's going to be some excitement from the Elijah fans. Looking forward...

[HCIsland]

I strongly suspect we will not be seeing a naked Frodo. I also suspect that them dressing as Orcs and marching with them won't be there either. In the book, regular Orcs come in all shapes and sizes, some being fairly small, so it works. In the movie, all the Orcs shown have been much bigger then Hobbits. I can't see how they can convincingly pull this off.<P>As well, although it works fine in the books, since then there has simply been too many movies that have pulled this trick (most notably The Wizard of Oz) and it's gotten pretty cliche. I think it will come across as too cheezy.<P>I think the elven cloaks are going to be their main source of staying under cover, hence why they had to establish them so bluntly in the scene where Sam falls over the ridge in front of the Black Gates in TTT.<P>H.C.

[cannedpoatoe]

I doubt they'l even do the whole naked Frodo thing. As for the orcs thats kinda hard to tell. I think they'll probably leave out the part with Sam and Frodo dressing up as them and find some other way to blend things in.

[Magician of Nathar]

I would love it if PJ would redeem Gollum at the end. It will be very heart wretching if he sees at the end and jumped into Mount. Doom himself. With all due respect to Tolkien, i still think that way it will be more of an epic ending with more impact on the audience(especially with big screen movie.) And I am perfectly OK with cutting of Scourning of Shire. I think it's rather pointless plot wise, and I have little love fore hobbits.

[HCIsland]

I'm not sure I would count it as pointless. It cleaned up the Saruman loose end and it really showed how much different the Hobbits were from when they left (especially Merry and Pippin), and that victory doesn't come without a price. It's wonderful in a book format (especially a large book). If there was ever a LoTR TV series (man am I dreaming), it would make a great next to last episode, but in a movie, it would be distracting.<P>As for Gollum redeaming himself, the point was made that if Frodo couldn't destroy the ring, Gollum sure as hell can't make that decision consciously. I don't know. It's best to just watch and see what happens and how well it works.<P>H.C.

[Tar-Palantir]

I would not call it pointless either. For me it was something I could relate to personally, rather than the huge, all-encompassing battle for Middle-Earth, with all it's inherent noble heroes, sinister villians and intrigue. My life is much simpler and I found it empowering to read of the now wiser Hobbits returning home and claiming what is theirs, liberating and protecting their family and friends. It was just so easy to relate to - poignant I think. <P>I cannot envision how the Hobbits will return to the Shire in the film. It can't be unchanged from when they left, can it? There will have to be some time lapse at the end, because I've seen that Elanor will be in it, and a few years old to boot. December seems quite a ways away, n'est pas?<p>[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[Laialthriel]

The Scouring pointless? Never. I mean I can see why they're not putting it in the movie, it would probably disrupt the flow of the whole, epic ending purpose, but I will really really miss it. It was one of favorite parts. I loved how all of the Hobbits got together to fight for their land. Merry and Pippin were at their finest. <P>Elanor is going to be in it? Wow, I didn't know that. That is quite the time lapse. I'm really excited to see Rosie again. Am I the only one that really liked her in FotR? Our Samwise...getting married. *sappy sigh* Okay, I'll stop now. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> December seems quite a ways away, n'est pas? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ohhh yessss....much much too far away. But I am going to miss all of the anticipation for the movies. It's been alot of fun. <P>Laialthriel

[Schmendrick]

I was quite disappointed with TTT and now I'm really sceptical about the ROTK. There are some wonderful parts in that book that they are going to leave out for sure!<BR>I still wonder if the Pippin/Palantír-scene will be in the ROTK or will they just leave it out totally? <BR>I also would very much like to see Pippin in Minas Tirith and especially his discussions with Beregond. But I'm sure they are going to leave them out...and have some more battles or romance instead! <BR>p.s. it's not hard to see that Pippin's my favorite character,is it ? (Besides Frodo, that is...)

[Taure Leafsilver]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sam gets fired up and pushes Gollum over <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> BWahahahaha! I can see that!<BR>but seriosly I think he'll be knocked into, stagger back, look behind him at the lava and do a twist in mid air as he plummets with a nice burning hisssss and a wince from Sam and Frodo heheh!

[Grimbold]

What are people's thoughts about the Woses?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the book, regular Orcs come in all shapes and sizes, some being fairly small, so it works. In the movie, all the Orcs shown have been much bigger then Hobbits. I can't see how they can convincingly pull this off. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The larger Orcs would mainly be Uruk-hai of Saruman's command, wouldn't they? The Orcs of the Black Eye would likely be more varied. Thoughts? [Consider the orcs in Moria. They were more goblin-ish and less man-like. Surely Frodo and Sam could pass off for one of them with the right gear.]<p>[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Grimbold ]

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> TTT was a good movie. I found it was a movie that catered well to non-reading fans. I heard Mal didn't like it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That was my cousin at the end of a letter to my parents. <P>Anyway, I think that most non-reading fans will be satisfied with RotK, despite how close or how far it is from the books, as long as it isn't a total blow-out. <P>As for readers of the book, we have to understand that screw-ups happen when making movies. I mean, my dad promised not to fall asleep during the almost-three-hour FotR, but did during the whole trip through Moria. He promised the same thing when he offered to go see TTT with me, and yet he fell asleep after seeing the Oliphaunts. So, to make it any longer would be terrible, and so they have to cut some things out. <P>Besides, it's just a movie...right? I think RotK will be better than TTT. It's the movie I've been waiting for since I found out there would be movies. I thought it would be the best. RotK was my favorite of the books. <P>Do you think that if they put Shelob in TTT they might have time for the Scouring in RotK? PJ claimed that if they put Shelob in TTT, there wouldn't be enough for Sam and Frodo to do in RotK.<P>Aylwen<p>[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Aylwen Dreamsong ]

[Rimbaud]

The very phrase 'non-reading fan' sends a glacial sensation a-wandering down the nape of my neck.

[Grimbold]

I agree. If you think you're a huge Lord of the Rings fan, you should at least read the book. Besides, the movies are more fun once you've got the background of the book itself behind you. Every moment is so much more exciting--trust me, nonreading fans!

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The larger Orcs would mainly be Uruk-hai of Saruman's command, wouldn't they? The Orcs of the Black Eye would likely be more varied. Thoughts? [Consider the orcs in Moria. They were more goblin-ish and less man-like. Surely Frodo and Sam could pass off for one of them with the right gear.]<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You may be right Grimbold but they never struck me as being anywhere near hobbit sized. I know it's works fine in the book, but I'm not sure how well it would work on film. I just get the feeling that there will be a reasonable amount of time spent with Shelob and Cirith Ungol, but then the trip across Gorgoroth will be fairly quickly dealt with. Just a gut feeling.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think he'll be knocked into, stagger back, look behind him at the lava and do a twist in mid air as he plummets with a nice burning hisssss and a wince from Sam and Frodo heheh! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ouch!!! <P>I would think Frodo's emotional pain (forget the finger for now) would be tremendous here seeing the Ring (and Gollum) plummeting to destruction. I hope this is played well by Elijah. I always pictured Gollum with an oblivious look of pure bliss as he plummets down. All he is aware of is that he finally has the Ring again.<P>H.C.

[Grimbold]

Yes, there's certainly more material to work with involving Shelob and the secret pass. I think your predictions are spot on there, HC. What are your thoughts on the Woses?

[Ithildin]

I'm really looking forward to pellenor and cormallen.. and of course, the grey havens..going to cry my heart out<P>"still round the corner there may wait a new road or a secret gate; and though I oft have passed them by, a day will come at last when I shall take the hidden paths that run west of the moon, east of the sun."

[HCIsland]

Apparently Ghan-buri-Ghan is on the cast list so I guess this indicates that we'll see the Woses. I think it's good that they are there because it means that Minas Tirith is cut off from the north as in the book and the Woses lead the Rohirrim along their secret paths. I'm not sure what I would think if the Woses did more then that.<BR> <BR>Mostly I hope they don't come across as knock-off Hollywood Indians. "Me lead 'um down path now. Ugh!" <P>H.C.

I think that it is going to be long but rushed, they still have alot of stuff from The Two Towers to put in. I heard they were going to cut out the parts of the Twins and the Rangers. I also heard they were going to cut the journey through the Paths of the Dead and their journey through southern Gondor. I hope not, it's one of the best parts of the book.

[HCIsland]

I'm still hoping (likely vainly) for the Paths of the Dead. Certainly, I think Aragorn is going to cross the mountains and go south, I guess there just won't be dead people. Again, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.<P>I honestly hope that we don't see a hell of a lot of Aragorn. He crosses the mountains, we know of his plan but we don't know what happens. The story then centers around all four hobbits, they each have major stuff to do. Aragorn can just show up with the calvary.<P>More with the Woses. I really hope their nobility comes through, more then just the nobel savage bit. I mean they've been there a hell of a lot longer then the Rohirrim.<P>H.C.

[Grimbold]

To leave out the Paths of the Dead would really be the largest failure in the making of the movies. That scene is totally essential to the defeat of the Corsairs and Aragorn's arrival with their ships. It would be a shame to miss all that, or even just the Paths part. Gimli will be happy if it's cut, though!

[Darkside]

Why would Peter Jackson leave out the Paths of the Dead?? Isn't he a big horror/ghosty type of director? Think of the scene in the Dead Marshes. I don't think he could resist having Aragorn (with his beloved Arwen, {ick}) leading an army of ghosts to battle. Not that I want that to happen, it just seems like something he would do.<P>I can also see where he would have Smeagol jump and Frodo try to save him. Some long, drawn out scene where we see Frodo dangling over the Crack of Doom, Sam holding onto his feet, and Smeagol hanging from his hands, begging to be dropped in. "It's a far, far better thing we do..." Very silly and very Hollywood.

[gilraën]

I agree about the paths of the dead (in what ever form they are portrayed). Without them it will be harder or impossible to establish Aragorn as the rightful heir to Gondor, remembering that PJ has chosen to make him a, initially albeit, reluctant one.

[HCIsland]

I completely agree on the Paths of the Dead as well, but somewhere, someone seemed to think they weren't going to be there. I sure hope they're wrong.<P>One of my favourite all time movies is Night of the Living Dead (the black and white one) but I hope it wouldn't come across as too zombieish.<P>"More Brains!!!" (That quote would be Return of the Living Dead for all you zombie connoisseurs)<P>Either that or a certain Michael Jackson video. Maybe they'll all start moon walking. (Man, am I dating myself).<BR> <BR>H.C.

[HCIsland]

Couple of other RoTK comments.<P>I'm very much looking forward to Eowyn and the Nazgul, partially because of the reaction this will get from the non-book audience. They'll be convinced this was a modern add on. In many ways, Tolkien was ahead of his time.<P>Also, it has been mentioned that Jackson has left too much of the content of LoTR for the final movie, but I don't think this is true as I did a little page counting.<P>In FoTR, 368 pages of the book was adapted. This includes all of Fellowship minus chapters 6, 7 and 8 of book one (Tom Bombadil) plus chapter 1 of book three (The Departure of Boromir).<P>In TTT, 235 pages of the book was adapted. This is books three and four (normally published as The Two Towers) minus chapters 8, 10 and 11 of book three (Road to Isengard, Saruman and Palantir) and 8, 9 and 10 of book four (Shelob build up and aftermath).<P>That leaves 335 pages left for RoTK which is less then FoTR even after Tom Bombadil was taken out. As well it is only 273 pages to the actual climax of the action. Of the remaining 82 pages (6 chapters) we know a lot will be gone including The Scouring of the Shire. There is some stuff that has to be dealt with, but I think it can be done fairly quickly with the main emphasis being building up to the scene in Grey Havens.<P>H.C.

[Morquesse]

I think Rotk will be impressive, despite the missing scenes, and I am looking forward to it! <BR>Here is a link saying what scenes will be in there. I don't know how reliable this is, but we can hope. <BR><A HREF="http://ringbearer.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid= 416&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0" TARGET=_blank>RotK Trailer</A><BR>I figured it is about 320 days 'til it comes out?<BR>See ya,<BR>`M

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What are your thoughts on the Woses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My intial view was that the Woses would be cut, since they are not a vital part of the story. A film audience would not really question why Sauron's forces put no guard on the road, or the Riders of Rohan could simply hack their way through any forces there.<P>But Mr buri-ghan does appear to be on the cast list. This doesn't mean that the Woses will be in the cinema version - they may be saved for the extended version. But, I hope that they are. HC, I share your concerns about how they will be depicted. Let's just hope that they are not denied their nobility.<P>As for the Paths of the Dead, I agree with Darkside. This kind of thing is Jackson's forte. And the link that Morquesse posted suggests that it will be in. I suspect that they may cut the Corsairs of Umbar and simply have the undead army turning up at Pelennor Fields.

[Hirilaelin]

Predictions! Yay! <P>Anyway, I don't think that they will do the Frodo naked scene, might cause some... Er... Problems.... Then again, it might not! If they don't though, the poor teenyboppers will be <B>soooo</B> disappointed! Poor them. <P>~Hirilaelin, Sorceress of the Misted Waters<P>Spoilers are GOOD!

[HCIsland]

But we need the Frodo naked scene. I wanna find out if the theory about big feet holds true. <P>Remember Boogy Nights. <P>H.C.