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Old 02-27-2001, 06:13 AM   #1
Orald
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Ring 144

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I was discussing the legitamacy of 144 original elves with someone in another forum. They seemed to think that since this is found in HoME it is irrelevant. They went on to state how impossible it would be to have only 144 elves, creating at most 72 couples. I tried to do some numbers in my head, and it worked for me. The point I am getting to is, do you think that number could serve as canon for LotR and such?

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>
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Old 02-27-2001, 08:01 AM   #2
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Re: 144

Never really thought about it Irmo...I mean Durelen. I always viewed that little essay as being somewhat experimental (though interesting).

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Old 02-27-2001, 11:25 AM   #3
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Re: 144

<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> and who are you?

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>
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Old 02-27-2001, 11:30 AM   #4
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Re: 144

Mithadan. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 2/27/01 12:34:29 pm
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Old 02-28-2001, 09:33 PM   #5
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Re: 144

Hmmm... I've never actually read that essay. But it doesn't sound bad to me. I suppose we could chuck it in and take it out later if we want. It is, after all, a very small point.
Although seventy-two couples is valid enough, I don't think it is valid in other ways, though. The Elves would have had to multiply pretty quickly to produce the large hosts of Teleri, Vanyar and Noldor that travelled to Valinor. They were not discovered long after they awoke, I should think.

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Old 03-01-2001, 11:16 AM   #6
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144

I think that given the fact that it took years or decades [anyone know of a references oto the lenth of the march?] to cross Rhovanion/Eriador and then southern Beleriand [and more to the east - one version has them awakening at the Sea of Rhun I believe.

This gives time for marriages and children.When mutiplied exponentially populations grow very fast.

It should be included I think [if possible from a literary /stylistic point of veiw] in the Silm and I am pretty sure I have had Quendi and Eldar [not the whole essay mind you] in my outline in the 'Of the coming of the Elves...' ch. for that very reason. CRT states in the intro to Q&amp;E that it was seemingly authoritative for his father.

The essay is and Appendix to Q&amp;E -HoME XI p.420 and is easily overlooked in the mass of linguistic subtlties and footnoted commentaries .

This question and it's source [HoME XI] underscore for me the central importance for the project of volumes X and XI, I would hazard that 80% of our [God willing] final version of the Silm. will come from tthese 2 volumes , and 1/2 of the rest was written during the same time period but already included in UT.
These 2 books contain much of what we get to see of JRRT's final Silmarillion, and they should [except in the case of Doriath and the sack of the havens and voyage of Earendil be the first place we look to establish a base reading/text.

lindil

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Old 03-01-2001, 12:35 PM   #7
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144

I was defending this without having even read the passage, and now having read the actual part from Quendi and Eldar, it seems like Tolkien took some time to work this out, 56 Avari(taking from both Noldor and Teleri), soudns a bit large, but I guess a larger amount would be needed since it would be easier for them to fall prey to Morgoth and his servents. That was really the only problem I saw with it at first, but even now it seems to work out.

Maybe this wasn't the best question for Canon Studies and Theories, since no body ever comes in here and it doesn't really affect anything in other books or other versions. Oh well.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000045>Durelen</A> at: 3/1/01 1:46:55 pm
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Old 03-19-2001, 10:54 PM   #8
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Re: 144

In case anyone is interested, I wrote a column about this at Suite101 a few months ago.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/54681Elves by the numbers, December 8, 2000</a>


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