Denethor vs. Aragorn

[Meriadoc61]

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How do you think things would have gone had Denethor not committed suicide and gone into the fire? Would he have surrendered his sceptre to Aragorn, as Faramir did?

</p>

[red]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Oooh! I remember debating this a while ago in chat! Somebody said they doubted Denethor would have given up the sceptre. There is a precedent for this as well, though I can't for the life of me find the reference. It was a steward who would not give up the sceptre to a claimant from the Northern line, I believe.

There was already a stir in Minas Tirith about Aragorn, for they said the true King had the 'hands of a healer'. I think perhaps if Denethor had denied the throne, he would have had a riot on his hands. The people loved Aragorn. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[Grand Admiral Reese]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Denethor was a wise man. He'd probably see that the Rule of the Stewards was over and give up the sceptre. He'd probably realize that it'd mean civil war if he didn't, with him most likely on the losing side.


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[Meriadoc61]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Denethor vs. Aragorn

Grand Admiral Reese:

I certainly would hope you would be right, but Denethor had for years been holding a grudge against Aragorn. His father, Ecthelion, had been very impressed with Aragorn when he appeared in Denethor's youth in Gondor under a diferent guise. There have been many times in the past when individuals have placed their own self interests ahead of others regardles of the harmful consequences, and I am afraid Denethor would have fallen into this category.

I appreciate your comments, though, and since this is strictly a matter of opinion, you could very well be right.

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Rèd, I believe you are refering to Arvedui, the last king of Arthedain. But those were slightly different circumstances. Eärnil had also laid claim to the kingship, he was not the steward as Denethor was.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Glorfindel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

I dont believe Denethor would of given up the Septre because he was (in my opinion)enthralled with his position of steward and the position's history that he would maybe think a king is not necessary even if he is Isildur's heir.
I believe he would think Gondor has endured over a 1000 years under stewardship why not more?

</p>

[The X Phial]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

In fact, doesn't he say something to the effect that he doesn't really believe Isildur's heir should rule Gondor? I would check it, but I'm too lazy.

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[Gilthalion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

&quot;...of a lesser line, long bereft of lordship...&quot; or something like that. (I'm at work and have no references here, even if I were energetic enough to search for it!)

Denethor might have tried to find some wiggle-room in the precedent Red mentioned. Prince Imrahil might have had something to say about it. Faramir, like Ecthelion, would have chosen against Denethor.

Sadly, I doubt Denethor's opposition would have even been open. I think he would have tried to arrange some calamity or treachery on the battlefield.

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[Sharkû]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Good point, Gil.
It may well have been possible that Denethor would have arranged some treachery with which he would have wanted to save Gondor from the usurpers. What part his own will to power might have played can only be guessed - no doubt it was a strong part of Denethor.

Nevertheless one thing might have well been able to stop him in such a constellation, namely the love for Faramir his son.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

I can picture a situation in which Denethor has actually betrayed Aragorn to Mordor, via the palantir, but Faramir sacrifices his own life to rescue his King.

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[Glorfindel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

It could of happened.
Eventhough i dont think gandalf would of been to thrilled with the idea.



</p>

[Meriadoc61]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Denethor vs. Aragorn

Gilthalion, Sharku, and the rest of you, excellent comments! I think the scenario presented whereby Faramir gives his life to save Aragorn his Lord from an event orchestrated by Denethor would have worked well. It is very reminiscent of the story of David, Jonathan, and Saul in the Old Testament.

I prefer the way Tolkien played out the part between Aragorn and Faramir, though, since Faramir in the tale he was elevated to a prince and stayed happily in Ithilien, which he loved. Anyway, Faramir is one of my favorite characters in the story, and both of these scenarios hold true to his character, which is of the highest merit.

</p>

[Amandil]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Here is the quote from Denethor, shortly before his (Denethor's) self immolation, in regards to Aragorn assuming the throne:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity&quot; <hr></blockquote>

There was no way Aragorn would have been able to assume the throne without some further bloodshed or tragedy had Denethor lived.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000049>Amandil</A> at: 5/2/01 10:46:32 pm

[enep]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Denethor was a bit screwed in the head anyway - realistically, the chances of him not throwing his life away are limited.

He'd been used by Sauron, he'd seen too much - infact, Denethor had probably seen the future unfold with him still in the picture - along with his sight of Sauron's troops, and Aragorn: all contributed to his suicide.

I always felt sorry for him, really <img src=frown.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Lady Eowyn]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

I gotta agree, enep. I also always felt sorry for Denethor.

I don't think Denethor would have let Arithon rule without a hissy-fit.
but the people and Faramir loved Arithon, so maybe he would have
given up after a while...


And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

[Falmar]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

I think a good compromise for Denethor would have been for him to resign the Stewardship in favour of Faramir and then leave it up to his son to surrender the sceptre to Aragorn.
Then he could go into a dignified retirement.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Speaking of hissy fits...

...what's this Arithon business?

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[Amandil]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

You know....Arithon.... Aragorn's older brother that spent the last 90 years playing dead, hiding out in the wild with the Pukel Men. Much safer. Nows he is ready to assume the throne now that the War is over <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

I still have problems with Denethor because of the way he treats Faramir. Not nice to love one of your children more than the other. And the things he said to Faramir! What would Denethor's wife Finduilas have made of that?!!

</p>

[Amandil]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Hey!! When did I get off the floor and become Animated?
I was just resting!

</p>

[red]

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Arithon

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> You know....Arithon.... Aragorn's older brother that spent the last 90 years playing dead, hiding out in the wild with the Pukel Men. Much safer. Nows he is ready to assume the throne now that the War is over<hr></blockquote>

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Too funny. <img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[enep]

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Re: Arithon

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Fugitive, eh?

- enep</p>

[Amandil]

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Re: Arithon

Imagine Arithon's coronation. Won't people be suprised when he shows up in a grass skirt! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

</p>

[arwentinuviel]

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denethor vs aragorn

Thatis a very interesting situation.
Denethor was a very proud man but he was also a wise man.He would have definitely given up the sceptre and would've allowed aragorn to take leadership

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

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Re: denethor vs aragorn

Hey arwentinuviel, good to see you finally made it over to the Downs. Welcome and hope you post a lot. This is the best Tolkien site EVER!!!

Humour is emotional chaos remembered in moments of tranquility.</p>

[GandaIf The White]

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Re: denethor vs aragorn

Well, I dont think this would happen but nobody else has thought of this.

Why not do what is supposed to be done? He might have given Aragorn the Scepter and stayed a Steward! You know, I thought I read that when the old kings ruled, they had a Steward to rule in there absence and to help them in any way possible. I think it would have been a nice turn of events if Denethor had become Aragorns Steward. They would make an awesome team.

But, I think more likely than not, that Denethor was full of hatred because, after all, Sauron had manipulated him. He was kindof like Saruman and couldnt be helped from doing some evil.

</p>

[The Watcher in the Water]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Hey All... I am new here and thought i might add my two cents worth...

I belive that Denethor would not have agreed to the rule of aragorn. There are two points on which i base this opinion - the first being that Denethor was already undoubtedly influenced by the shadow and as such became a person that could be viwed as slightly 'evil' or perhaps just slightly insane and the second is that his hubris would not allow him to bend to another...

well that wasnt great for a first posting but i'll work on it <img src=smile.gif ALT="">


</p>

[Lotrelf]

Denether, from the start saw all the good people as a threat to his "crown" that by law was not his. His death was a tragedy. But his life wouldn't have been better, for him and for others.

[Belegorn]

I get the feeling Denethor would not have surrendered it. He felt only someone of the Line of Anarion should hold the scepter, not Isildur.

"I am a Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." [RotK, ch. 7, p. 142]

He really echoed a view that seems to have withered among other nobles of his time as his son and kinsmen of Dol Amroth were for Aragorn.

[Belegorn]

I should mention that like I said Denethor's view was one that was held a long time since just before the North Kingdom fractured. The council of Gondor told Arvedui, the King of the North, "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only;" [RotK, Appendix A] This is imo the reason why Denethor would not see Aragorn as a rightful heir, or at least he'd use this as a reason.

[cellurdur]

Denethor would not have surrendered the crown and there probably would have been a civil war. Aragorn with the support of Dol Amroth, Eomer and probably Faramir would have been victorious, but there would have been a terrible cost to Gondor.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Denethor would not have surrendered the crown and there probably would have been a civil war. Aragorn with the support of Dol Amroth, Eomer and probably Faramir would have been victorious, but there would have been a terrible cost to Gondor.

I'd guess Faramir would be on Aragorn's side. He was a good man and truely understood the importance of the King and his (and his father's) position in Gondor.

[Mithalwen]

I don't know that Denethor would have withheld the crown if Aragorn had the support of the nobles especially his heir and Imrahil. As soon as Denethor died they would cede authority anyway. I shuspect that the sensee of honour that meant the stewards did not claim kingship would have held in the end. However I suspect for Denethor hope and despair really were akin and he could no more cope with a victory forseen as defeat. I suspect he would have taken the same route out.

[Belegorn]

I agree. I think Denethor held to the decision the old council made, that only an heir of Meneldil/Anárion who met the criterion [male line of descent, nearly pure Númenórean bloodline] could claim the throne. However, at the same time it would seem to me that many of the other nobles would see it differently and would accept an heir of Isildur. I doubt at this time there would have been Civil War since there were few Dúnedain left anyway in the South Kingdom.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I agree. I think Denethor held to the decision the old council made, that only an heir of Meneldil/Anárion who met the criterion [male line of descent, nearly pure Númenórean bloodline] could claim the throne. However, at the same time it would seem to me that many of the other nobles would see it differently and would accept an heir of Isildur. I doubt at this time there would have been Civil War since there were few Dúnedain left anyway in the South Kingdom.

The Council did not reply to the claim that Elendil was the first King of Gondor. They never rejected this, but merely said they had chosen to give the crown to another, due to the current circumstances. Denethor had grown proud and had a special dislike for Aragorn. I don't see him ever handing over the rulership of Gondor to his rival.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, if the debate from the days of Ondoher's death is any guide, the decision would not be the Steward's alone, but the Council's. We don't know who else was on it, but certainly Imrahil, a potent voice and of course an Aragorn supporter.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Council did not reply to the claim that Elendil was the first King of Gondor. They never rejected this, but merely said they had chosen to give the crown to another, due to the current circumstances. Denethor had grown proud and had a special dislike for Aragorn. I don't see him ever handing over the rulership of Gondor to his rival.

Please read my posts above. The council was of the opinion that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor, and that for them only heirs of Meneldil/Anárion could have a claim to the throne. Arvedui, "claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur... The claim was rejected... 'the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm.'" [Appendix A] See also: Immortality and the sons of Elrond

I don't see Denethor handing the Kingship to Aragorn either as an heir of Isildur.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Please read my posts above. The council was of the opinion that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor, and that for them only heirs of Meneldil/Anárion could have a claim to the throne. Arvedui, "claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur... The claim was rejected... 'the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm.'" [Appendix A] See also: Immortality and the sons of Elrond

I don't see Denethor handing the Kingship to Aragorn either as an heir of Isildur.

Read what I said again. They rejected his claim on the basis of being Isildur's heir. However, when Arvedui makes the claim as Elendil's heir the council have no reply.

'To this Gondor made no answer'.

The council had no way of refuting this claim, because Elendil was held in such a high regard they would not remove him from the succession. Consequently as long as Elendil was the first king of Gondor then any heir of Elendil would be in the succession.

After this there is never any dispute that Arvedui has a valid claim, but they choose Earnil, who himself admits it was also due to the needs of Gondor and not just a matter of law.

' He sent messages to Arvedui announcing that he had received the crown of Gondor, according to the laws and NEEDS of the South-Kingdom.

Denethor would not give up the throne, but the Council would be breaking the law by rejecting Aragorn's claim.

[Belegorn]

They made no reply because they already told him that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor. Whether he invoked Elendil or not, Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor according to them. I'm not saying that they were right, but this was their stance, which they held to. That was their argument. Again, I will tell you, his claim was not valid according to the South Kingdom because they believed "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

They made no reply because they already told him that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor. Whether he invoked Elendil or not, Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor according to them. I'm not saying that they were right, but this was their stance, which they held to. That was their argument. Again, I will tell you, his claim was not valid according to the South Kingdom because they believed "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

No they had made a false claim, which they could not back up. Arvedui had made his initial claim on two points.
1. Being Isildur's heir.
2. Being the husband of Firiel.

'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North Kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor as the direct descendant of Isildur and the husband of Firiel the only surviving child of Ondoher.'

The council then reject his claim and give their reasons.

1. They claim that Firiel's claim is not accepted, because in Gondor like Arnor they practice Salic succession.
2. The crown of Gondor belongs to the sons of Meneldil, to whom Isildur relinquished the kingdom.

So falsely they rejected the claim of Isildur's heir based on him having apparently relinquished the kingship of Gondor.

Arvedui, however then goes over the top of this and claim the throne not as Isildur's heir, but Elendil's.

'We have heard that the name Elendil stands to this day at the Head of the Line of Kings of Gondor'

Arvedui here has caught them out on the political manoeuvrings they were trying to carry out. The Throne of Gondor cannot belong solely to the heirs of Anarion, because Gondor to that day still claimed Elendil as their first king. As long as Elendil was their first king then other descendants of Elendil and not just through Meneldil could claim the throne.

His second point about Firiel is also valid. Whilst they had at the time through tradition chosen only male heirs to be king, the Law of Gondor was still theoretically the same as the Law of Numenor. Consequently women did have the right to the throne and nothing had been altered.

[Belegorn]

It's like talking to a wall. I agree with Arvedui. I never said Gondor was right, I said that it was what they believed to be true and held to it. Which is why it did not matter that he brought up Elendil because they already told him the realm was relinquished to Meneldil. The fact remains, in Gondor his argument did not hold because they believed, "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".