A critical look at the Tom B / Witch King theory - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-11-2002, 01:24 PM

Maybe some of you have visited the Tolkien Sarcasm page. There's a section called Crackpot Theories and within this section lie a few that puzzle me a lot.

Namely, Tom Bombadil is the Witch King.

The guy who put it forward gave a lot of reasons. Examples, Tom Bombadil was never heard of until the Ringwraiths existed. Gandalf never told how his meeting with Bombadil went at the Havens (because Witch King was destroyed at Pellenor). Ring had no effect on Bombadil. Bombadil had control over Barrow Wights and Wights originally came from Angmar (or something like that)

And don't forget the old classic, they are never in the same scene at the same time!

I can't remember all of it. Anyway, the point is, I found it really interesting and couldn't think of a single way to prove Tom's innocence to this evil!

Can you?

burrahobbit · 07-11-2002, 01:31 PM

I think a have a good refutation for it. You got it from Tolkien Sarcasm page.

Quote:

The Books is for advanced discussions of Middle-earth.

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 07-11-2002, 01:36 PM

Actually, I've read the article Eomer speaks of and it uses some fuzzy but somewhat convincing logic to support its theories. Still, discussion of this topic would be 'advanced' enough for this forum. So, if anyone has any thoughts on it, please continue.

Bêthberry · 07-11-2002, 01:42 PM

Quote:

By their fruits shall ye know them.

Goldberry and Tom have grace, merriment, peace, and earthly delight. Music and song form the finest fibre of their nature. They bring contentment, joy, hope, and stout hearts to the Hobbits.

Doesn't sound like evil to me.

*dances a merry jig and laughs wholeheartedly*

Bethberry

burrahobbit · 07-11-2002, 01:48 PM

Ok.

Quote:

Tom Bombadil was never heard of until the Ringwraiths existed.

The various people at the council of Elrond disagree.

Quote:

Gandalf never told how his meeting with Bombadil went at the Havens (because Witch King was destroyed at Pellenor).

Why would Gandalf visit a dead person? Why would Gandalf visit an evil person?

Quote:

Ring had no effect on Bombadil.

The ring had an effect on the Witch-king.

Quote:

Bombadil had control over Barrow Wights and Wights originally came from Angmar (or something like that)

I have control over my OS, my OS comes from Microsoft, I am Bill Gates!

Quote:

And don't forget the old classic, they are never in the same scene at the same time!

Nor are Frodo and Denethor.

O'Boile · 07-11-2002, 01:51 PM

Well... Tom is supposed to be the eldist (older than the hills etc.) the witch king certainly is not. He was born in the second age. Also, the witch king is invisible, Tom is not. Also, the witch king is a slave to his ring (one of the nine) which in turn can be controled by the one ring, thus I doubt that the ring would have no affect on him. Also, Elrond and Gandalf had both heard of Tom (Elrond also spoke of knowing him from past ages, and also mentioned his age), so I think this theory is pretty far fetched.

Orome · 07-11-2002, 01:54 PM

lets see

1)Tom is described as oldest of the old. If this is an accurate discription of him, then he could not be Angmar, cause Angmar was a "mortal man doomed to die"

2)Gandalf had no reason to tell how his meeting was, but if Bombadil was not at his house, then there would be a reason to talk about him.

3)Elrond, Gandalf, and Aragorn knew Bombadil. They also knew the Witchking. It would be insulting their inteligence to say they wouldn't know if they were the same person.

4)Ringwraiths (Angmar included) do not have physical bodies. That is why they have the cloaks. Tom has a physical body.

5)The Ringwraths have an aura of fear surrounding them. Tom does not.

If you want more reasons i can probably come up with them

Starbreeze · 07-11-2002, 02:05 PM

Also, if Bomadil was the witch king, why didn't he take the ring while he had the chance, and end the quest, returning to his Dark Lord with Honours?

07-11-2002, 02:40 PM

Have I missed something?When did Gandalf meet Bombadil at the Havens?If you mean when the elves passed out of ME,then Gandalf never did meet him!((You can prove me wrong if you want,I'm just confused)) [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Angmar_the_Horrible · 07-11-2002, 02:58 PM

@Orome: Why are you so sure about Ringwraith
having no bodies? It is not said clearly in
the books. The Silmarillion only says "they
became invisible", not disembodied.
I always imagined them with a body, just
invisible. They wouldn't be able to ride or
use weapons without a body and in book 3,
Tolkien mentions sinews and undead flesh...

PS: Excuse me for being a bit off-topic...

Child of the 7th Age · 07-11-2002, 03:02 PM

Quote:

When did Bombadil meet Gandalf at the Havens?

He didn't. Gandalf went to Bombadil's house after the fellowship split up at the end. He went for rest and relaxation. I think what was being asked is why didn't Gandalf speak about his meeting with Tom later when Gandalf saw the hobbits at the Grey Havens, Eg. Tom sends love and kisses to the hobbits.

Of course, this whole line of reasoning is deficient. Tolkien, for example, never mentions the presence of Goldberry near the end of the LotR, while he does mention Tom. Now, both Shelob and Goldberry seem to represent powerful forces of nature. Does that mean, because Goldberry's name wasn't even mentioned by Gandalf, that she is really dead? In fact that might mean that Shelob and Goldberry were identical, since Shelob undoubtedly died of the wounds inflicted upon her, or at least was unable to hunt and died of starvation.

Indeed, you can take this one step further. It is quite clear that Frodo and even Sam find Goldberry quite charming. It is also true that a number of mutton-headed critics have interpreted the fight with Shelob in strictly sexual terms. Frodo was unable to finish the "job" and had to rely on his friend Sam to plunge in the sword.
So, obviously the two characters must be the same, since they were both attractive to the young hobbits and they were both dead.

What rubbish! It is amazing what one can do with logic which defeats all common sense. Obviously, none of this fits the spirit or tone of the tale Tolkien was telling. Sometimes I think we are too smart for our own good. Can you imgine what Tolkien might have said about this analogy? Actually, it is so farfetched, he would probably laugh rather than being upset.

sharon, the 7th age hobbbit

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Lindolirian · 07-11-2002, 04:59 PM

Hmmm this seems like Middle Earth Mayhem to me. I agree with burrahobbit about the books being for intelligent discussions. These funny ones don't belong in the serious section.

*Varda* · 07-11-2002, 05:14 PM

I think the ideas behind this line of thought, which at first may seem ridiculous, could be in fact quite interesting, almost 'serious'. It doesn't have to be very confusing and complicated to be in the Books section.

~*Varda Elentari*~

Orome · 07-11-2002, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Why are you so sure about Ringwraith
having no bodies? It is not said clearly in
the books. The Silmarillion only says "they
became invisible", not disembodied.
I always imagined them with a body, just
invisible. They wouldn't be able to ride or
use weapons without a body and in book 3,
Tolkien mentions sinews and undead flesh...

It is said that the cloaks give them their form, which i took to mean that they had no visible bodies. any ways Tom is not dead and dying flesh

I do agree with Lindolirian and several others that this should not be in a serious section. This whole topic is a joke

Tarthang · 07-11-2002, 08:40 PM

Starbreeze's querry completely defeats the fuzzy logic used by the Tolkein Sarcasm site. Had she not posted her question I'd have posted something similiar myself.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-12-2002, 06:32 AM

Hey, you may think that this is not serious but I do. That question was inside my head for ages and I'm still not convinced by a lot of these arguments. As far as I can see there is no section of the Forums entitled "Discussions on ridiculous theories"

Did the Witch King not have a lot of power? Sure, he was no Dark Lord but who's to say he couldn't change form whenever he felt like it. Maybe when he changed into Tom Bombadil, he changed so completely that no thought of taking the Ring from Frodo entered his head.

And sure, Tom said that he is the Eldest but if you were the Witch King in disguise then wouldn't you lie?

I didn't really make myself clear the first time but what I meant was that the Ring had a different effect on Tom and Witch King than it did on everyone else. Neither was fooled when Frodo put on the Ring.

Daniel Telcontar · 07-12-2002, 06:47 AM

Do you think someone like Glorfindel could be fooled by the Witchking? Glorfindel had meet the witchking two times, both times victorious, and he talks about Tom being the eldest, and I doubt that he would be fooled. And where does Goldberry fit in? I don't think the witchking had any plans on marrying, not even a riverdaughter.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel Telcontar ]

*Varda* · 07-12-2002, 06:47 AM

<font color=white> The ring had different effects on Tom and the Witch King, but theyw were very different effects. The effect the ring had on the Witch-King - the WK seemed to want it for power etc. while Tom seemed untempted and uninterested in the affairs outside his little land. This is itself seems to show Tom doesn't = WK.

Can everyone stop being so skeptical about this being a stupid thread? Just because it's in the books forum doesn't mean it has to be deadly serious.

Eomer! Someone else from Scotland! I say this only because there seem to be very few scots on this site.

~*Varda Elentari*~

Lothiriel Silmarien · 07-12-2002, 11:41 AM

Varda, I just found out (which is pretty pathetic) that I'm Scottish too [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Apparantly, my mom's side of the family originated there, from all the way back to the Crusades.

And as for Tom Bombadil being the Witch King....I don't really have an answer as to how that could possibly be or how it couldn't be. I think Tolkien might have seen this and decided that it be left up to the reader to decide this, like the Entwives. I think everyone here has some really interesting views on this though. Although there are really good reasons on how Tom Bombadil could be the Witch King. It might seem ridiculous, but it fits!

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-13-2002, 01:23 PM

Look people, I don't really believe that Tom Bombadil is The Witch King of Angmar.

I am just messing with ya!

Yes I am Scottish. Are most people on the Downs American? Or have I stumbled upon some obscure Surinamese website?

Anywho, to continue the debate.....why should Glorfindel et al recognise the Witch King in disguise? I mean, it's hardly a mask and a fake accent is it?

Evenstar1 · 07-13-2002, 04:12 PM

First of all, if we're taking count, I'm in the "American" category.

Secondly, I was about to agree with what Burrahobbit and Starbreeze had initially said, but then I started thinking about it some more. So to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, I have 2 Fiction Theories that bear some consideration:

(1) The Superman Theory: As far as Gandalf/Elrond/et al thinking that TB and WK are different, let's not forget Lois Lane (and everyone else in Metropolis) who had close contact with both Clark Kent and Superman, yet couldn't figure out that they were one and the same. This theory also worked for other superheroes (Wonder Woman, Supergirl, etc.), so why wouldn't it work for TB and WK?

(2) The Jekyll and Hyde Theory: What if, rather than the Witch King being Tom Bombadil, it was Bombadil who was the Witch King? Perhaps Frodo was lucky that Bombadil was in his "Jekyll-state" when he tried on the Ring. That may have been why he wasn't tempted to take it and run it over to Sauron. This Theory would also account for why they were never in the same place at the same time. And may also account for Bombadil's "fatherlessness," yet the Witch King's having been "born."

Sarin Elfarmour · 07-24-2002, 04:49 PM

you ppl dont seem to get the fact that the wich king was in Minas Morgul until Frodo made came to the Morgul vale

07-11-2002, 01:24 PM	#1
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	A critical look at the Tom B / Witch King theory Maybe some of you have visited the Tolkien Sarcasm page. There's a section called Crackpot Theories and within this section lie a few that puzzle me a lot. Namely, Tom Bombadil is the Witch King. The guy who put it forward gave a lot of reasons. Examples, Tom Bombadil was never heard of until the Ringwraiths existed. Gandalf never told how his meeting with Bombadil went at the Havens (because Witch King was destroyed at Pellenor). Ring had no effect on Bombadil. Bombadil had control over Barrow Wights and Wights originally came from Angmar (or something like that) And don't forget the old classic, they are never in the same scene at the same time! I can't remember all of it. Anyway, the point is, I found it really interesting and couldn't think of a single way to prove Tom's innocence to this evil! Can you? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-11-2002, 01:36 PM	#3
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	Actually, I've read the article Eomer speaks of and it uses some fuzzy but somewhat convincing logic to support its theories. Still, discussion of this topic would be 'advanced' enough for this forum. So, if anyone has any thoughts on it, please continue. __________________ The Barrow-Wight

07-11-2002, 02:05 PM	#8
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	Also, if Bomadil was the witch king, why didn't he take the ring while he had the chance, and end the quest, returning to his Dark Lord with Honours? __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

07-11-2002, 02:58 PM	#10
Angmar_the_Horrible Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 18	@Orome: Why are you so sure about Ringwraith having no bodies? It is not said clearly in the books. The Silmarillion only says "they became invisible", not disembodied. I always imagined them with a body, just invisible. They wouldn't be able to ride or use weapons without a body and in book 3, Tolkien mentions sinews and undead flesh... PS: Excuse me for being a bit off-topic... __________________ "Old fool! Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!"

07-11-2002, 04:59 PM	#12
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,117	Hmmm this seems like Middle Earth Mayhem to me. I agree with burrahobbit about the books being for intelligent discussions. These funny ones don't belong in the serious section. __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

07-11-2002, 01:51 PM	#6
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Well... Tom is supposed to be the eldist (older than the hills etc.) the witch king certainly is not. He was born in the second age. Also, the witch king is invisible, Tom is not. Also, the witch king is a slave to his ring (one of the nine) which in turn can be controled by the one ring, thus I doubt that the ring would have no affect on him. Also, Elrond and Gandalf had both heard of Tom (Elrond also spoke of knowing him from past ages, and also mentioned his age), so I think this theory is pretty far fetched.

07-11-2002, 01:54 PM	#7
Orome Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 195	lets see 1)Tom is described as oldest of the old. If this is an accurate discription of him, then he could not be Angmar, cause Angmar was a "mortal man doomed to die" 2)Gandalf had no reason to tell how his meeting was, but if Bombadil was not at his house, then there would be a reason to talk about him. 3)Elrond, Gandalf, and Aragorn knew Bombadil. They also knew the Witchking. It would be insulting their inteligence to say they wouldn't know if they were the same person. 4)Ringwraiths (Angmar included) do not have physical bodies. That is why they have the cloaks. Tom has a physical body. 5)The Ringwraths have an aura of fear surrounding them. Tom does not. If you want more reasons i can probably come up with them

07-11-2002, 02:40 PM	#9
Elessar,Elfstone Guest Posts: n/a	Have I missed something?When did Gandalf meet Bombadil at the Havens?If you mean when the elves passed out of ME,then Gandalf never did meet him!((You can prove me wrong if you want,I'm just confused)) [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

07-11-2002, 05:14 PM	#13
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	I think the ideas behind this line of thought, which at first may seem ridiculous, could be in fact quite interesting, almost 'serious'. It doesn't have to be very confusing and complicated to be in the Books section. ~Varda Elentari~ __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

07-11-2002, 08:40 PM	#15
Tarthang Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paths of the Dead Posts: 108	Starbreeze's querry completely defeats the fuzzy logic used by the Tolkein Sarcasm site. Had she not posted her question I'd have posted something similiar myself.

07-12-2002, 06:32 AM	#16
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Hey, you may think that this is not serious but I do. That question was inside my head for ages and I'm still not convinced by a lot of these arguments. As far as I can see there is no section of the Forums entitled "Discussions on ridiculous theories" Did the Witch King not have a lot of power? Sure, he was no Dark Lord but who's to say he couldn't change form whenever he felt like it. Maybe when he changed into Tom Bombadil, he changed so completely that no thought of taking the Ring from Frodo entered his head. And sure, Tom said that he is the Eldest but if you were the Witch King in disguise then wouldn't you lie? I didn't really make myself clear the first time but what I meant was that the Ring had a different effect on Tom and Witch King than it did on everyone else. Neither was fooled when Frodo put on the Ring. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-12-2002, 06:47 AM	#17
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Do you think someone like Glorfindel could be fooled by the Witchking? Glorfindel had meet the witchking two times, both times victorious, and he talks about Tom being the eldest, and I doubt that he would be fooled. And where does Goldberry fit in? I don't think the witchking had any plans on marrying, not even a riverdaughter. [ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel Telcontar ] __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

07-12-2002, 11:41 AM	#19
Lothiriel Silmarien Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 829	Varda, I just found out (which is pretty pathetic) that I'm Scottish too [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Apparantly, my mom's side of the family originated there, from all the way back to the Crusades. And as for Tom Bombadil being the Witch King....I don't really have an answer as to how that could possibly be or how it couldn't be. I think Tolkien might have seen this and decided that it be left up to the reader to decide this, like the Entwives. I think everyone here has some really interesting views on this though. Although there are really good reasons on how Tom Bombadil could be the Witch King. It might seem ridiculous, but it fits! __________________ Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~~ ~~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page

07-13-2002, 01:23 PM	#20
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Look people, I don't really believe that Tom Bombadil is The Witch King of Angmar. I am just messing with ya! Yes I am Scottish. Are most people on the Downs American? Or have I stumbled upon some obscure Surinamese website? Anywho, to continue the debate.....why should Glorfindel et al recognise the Witch King in disguise? I mean, it's hardly a mask and a fake accent is it? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-13-2002, 04:12 PM	#21
Evenstar1 Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Colorado (just east of the Misty Mts.) Posts: 111	First of all, if we're taking count, I'm in the "American" category. Secondly, I was about to agree with what Burrahobbit and Starbreeze had initially said, but then I started thinking about it some more. So to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, I have 2 Fiction Theories that bear some consideration: (1) The Superman Theory: As far as Gandalf/Elrond/et al thinking that TB and WK are different, let's not forget Lois Lane (and everyone else in Metropolis) who had close contact with both Clark Kent and Superman, yet couldn't figure out that they were one and the same. This theory also worked for other superheroes (Wonder Woman, Supergirl, etc.), so why wouldn't it work for TB and WK? (2) The Jekyll and Hyde Theory: What if, rather than the Witch King being Tom Bombadil, it was Bombadil who was the Witch King? Perhaps Frodo was lucky that Bombadil was in his "Jekyll-state" when he tried on the Ring. That may have been why he wasn't tempted to take it and run it over to Sauron. This Theory would also account for why they were never in the same place at the same time. And may also account for Bombadil's "fatherlessness," yet the Witch King's having been "born." __________________ - Eve

07-24-2002, 04:49 PM	#22
Sarin Elfarmour Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 43	you ppl dont seem to get the fact that the wich king was in Minas Morgul until Frodo made came to the Morgul vale __________________ Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu