Eldarin kingship and succession

[Gothmog, LoB]

The question how the hell Eldarin kingship and succession works is often discussed when the High-kingship of the Noldor comes up, and how the succession to Gil-galad works.

However, this is an intriguing question in a broader context.

1. Preliminary thoughts

The first and most interesting question is what the hell a king actually is in the eyes of the Eldar? We know that the kingship of the Edain (i.e. the Kings of the line of Elros Tar-Minyatur) comes from the Half-elven line of the descendants of Eärendil and Elros. Prior to them the Edain of Beleriand didn't have kings, but only chieftains and lords.

In that sense we can safely assume that the specialness that set the normal men apart from Edain royalty was indeed the elvish-divine ancestry of Elros and his descendants. This continues on all the way to Aragorn and the rejuvenated Kings of the Dúnedain at the end of Third Age symbolized by the marriage of Arwen Undómiel and King Elessar.

But the Eldar don't have such special infusions of divine blood aside from the special case of Lúthien Tinúviel (who never actually rules as queen over any realm).

Instead, the Eldar (and perhaps all the Quendi) have a specialty of their own. They are immortal and even if slain they never leave the circles of the world. A royal succession makes little for them and is actually a contradictory concept which only makes (some) sense under the special circumstances of Arda Marred (in the sense that a dead king in Middle-earth cannot really return to his people so that for pragmatic another king has to take his place).

Therefore it makes sense to grant administrative rights of the king to still living successors, especially in war-time. But the *true king* of, say, the Noldor would always remain Finwe, regardless where the hell his fea was hanging out right now,

And we know that the kingship can be given to the heirs of a king, usually a son or otherwise close descendant, if a king is actually slain.

2. Various kingdoms

Another matter are the various independent realms and kingdoms various Elves founded at different times. The nobles doing this simply seemed to have set themselves up as the rulers of new lands like Elwe claiming Doriath and Beleriand for himself, and the exiled Noldor later doing the same things with the realms they made themselves in Middle-earth (Nargothrond, Hithlum, Gondolin, and whatever political entities the sons of Feanor claimed to rule over). Those kingdoms were new and independent political constructs and the succession and laws therein were, most likely, dependent on whatever rules and laws the kings who founded them set up.

For instance, we know that Denethor, the son of Lenwe (who was either dead by this time or had chosen to remain wherever he and his people dwelt before Denethor's people came to Beleriand) was the King of Nandor living in Ossiriand until his death but after his death the Nandor didn't choose a new king - suggesting Denethor's kingship was either not hereditary or he did not leave any heirs of his own body who could inherit his crown.

The High-kingship seems to be independent from that because in the cause of the Noldor this goes back to the way things were back in Valinor and reflects, in a sense, the ideal situation of one people of the Eldar under the rule of one (eternally reigning) leader.

3. The status of Ingwe

Of most significance is Ingwe in all of that because his title refers to him as the High-king of all Elves. Granted, this office is effectively highly ceremonial due to the fact that Ingwe never actually interacted with any of his subjects outside of Valinor for a very long time, but it reflects still an authority that seems to be based on more than mere presumption. Considering the fact that the only Vanyar dying would have died before Orome came to Cuiviénen (or later during the War of Wrath) one would have to assume that Ingwe must either be identical with the first unbegotten Elf, Imin, or at least be of his line because else it would be difficult to explain how Ingwe could usurp or rise to the kingship of the Vanyar (and, in fact, all the other Elves) if he was just some random elf who ended up traveling with Orome to Aman. After all, the Elves would have leaders and chieftains even at this early stage in their history.

The time passing between the awakening of the Elves and Orome's arrival is only 35 Valian Years (about 330 Sun Years) so we would not assume that the Elves were able to multiply all that much - perhaps the 144 founders already had great-grandchildren by that time, but there couldn't have been many more generations than that.

If Imin, Tata, and Enel were still alive by this point they most likely would have been the leaders of their particular tribes, and most likely those Quendi who decided to go with Orome to see Valinor with their own eyes. It is, of course, imaginable that they had already been killed or abducted by Melkor's minions.

Anyway, my idea is that if Ingwe wasn't Imin, or at least his son or grandson, then his presumption to be the King of all Elves would be just that - a presumption. He wouldn't be universally recognized as such because it makes no sense that the guy who ended up at Manwe's feet in Valinor is the great high-king just because of that.

We also know that all of Imin's people, the Minyar, went to Aman, so there is no chance of Imin becoming an Avar.

The main argument against Imin being Ingwe is the fact that Indis was either his sister or his sister's daughter and that he later had children in Aman, as did Olwe and Finwe. While it would be strange for the Eldar to have children so late in life it is not unheard of (e.g. Elrond only fathering his children in the beginning of the Third Age) and such a development might actually be part of or a symptom of blessed life in Valinor (both Finwe's and Feanor's many children are very uncommon among the Eldar). Ingwe could easily already have had children back at Cuiviénen.

The fact of Ingwe having a sister is trickier, but there is no reason to assume that the unbegotten Elves did not consider their companions their siblings in a very ultimate sense - perhaps even more so than later generations perceive their blood relations.

However, it is quite clear that Finwe and Elwe/Olwe (and Elmo, if he existed) were among the First Elves. Elwe apparently didn't have any spouse until he met Melian (unless we assume she is only his second spouse, the first one being lost) and Feanor, Míriel's only child, was only born in Aman.

In any case, I think it is quite clear that Ingwe must be Imin's son or grandson, and Imin himself must have died or disappeared before Orome's arrival or else he would have been the leader of the Minyar.


4. High-kingship vs. 'normal kingship'

As said above, it seems that any 'noble Elda' could set up his own kingdom in unclaimed land rather easily. For the Teleri there doesn't seem to exist anything resembling a 'high-kingship' because the Falmari in Aman took Olwe as their king whereas the original senior leader of the Teleri on the Great Journey, Elwe, remained behind and became Elu Thingol, King of the Sindar, Doriath, and Beleriand.

The High-king of the Noldor in Middle-earth seems be considered to be Finwe's successor in Middle-earth (while the King of the Noldor back in Valinor became Finarfin).

5. Succession

This is really a tricky thing because of the whole male vs. female inheritance thing. There are a lot of special cases to consider.

If we take Gil-galad as Orodreth's son, son of Angrod, then the succession Finwe > Feanor > Fingolfin (with Maedhros as head of the House Feanor abdicating in his own name as well as the name of his brothers) > Fingon > Turgon > Gil-galad makes somewhat sense.

However, there are problems:

Gil-galad can only become High-king of the Noldor if we assume that the throne could not pass through Idril Celebrindal, sole child of Turgon, to Eärendil and his son Elrond who all belong the the elder line of Fingolfin.

At first glance a succession sort of modeled on the Salic Law (absolute exclusion of both females and male descendants through the female line) makes sense, but we know this was obviously not the case for the succession of the kingship of Doriath (and subsequently, presumably, the 'high-kingship' of the Sindar of Beleriand).

Elu Thingol and Melian only had one child, a daughter, Lúthien Tinúviel, and after the death of both Thingol and Lúthien the kingship of Doriath passed to Thingol's grandson by Lúthien and Beren, Dior (rather than, say, Thingol's younger brother Elmo or any descendants of Elmo - like Celeborn!). In a Salic Law scenario (or even agnatic primogeniture) descendants through the male line - like Elmo himself or his descendants - would have come before either Lúthien and Dior. But this clearly wasn't as the Sindar of Doriath saw it in the stories.

Therefore I'd actually see Idril as Turgon's viable heir, eligible either to inherit the crown of Gondolin herself should her father die or to at least pass it along to her son, Eärendil. Just as Lúthien passed her claim to Doriath on to her son, Dior.

In that sense Eärendil should have been the high-king of the Noldor of Middle-earth at the Mouths of Sirion rather than Gil-galad unless we assume that for the high-kingship the male line took precedence (i.e. Idril/Eärendil might have been able to rule over Gondolin but not the Noldor as a whole).

It is also imaginable that Eärendil - feeling closer to the Edain than the Eldar - gave up any claims he may have had just as Maedhros once did (and this could also explain why Elrond later could not claim the high-kingship after his father had disappeared because Eärendil would have decided for his entire house/line just as Maedhros once did).

Galadriel technically could have made a bid for the high-kingship after Gil-galad died without issue because she was the last remaining descendant of the House of Finarfin left in Middle-earth at this time. But one assumes that styling oneself 'High-king/queen of the Noldor' in those days would have been pretty moot because there were no longer enough Noldor (or Noldor kingdoms) left in Middle-earth for such a title to have any meaning. Even Lindon was no longer a Noldor kingdom.

If we assume the succession laws of the Númenórian kings were at least partially based on the rules of the Eldar then it is also clear that claims can pass through the female line, even before Tar-Aldarion changed the law. I'm actually inclined to believe that the early Númenórians based the rules on Eldarin wisdom because the prominence of a woman like Haleth among the early Edain makes it less likely that they would have excluded females from inheriting the Númenórian sceptre.

However, it seems that the Faithful were much more conservative and excluded women from the succession again or else one would have expected to see at least one Ruling Queen of either Gondor or Arnor/Arthedain in two millennia. Fíriel's claim to Gondor is cited by Arvedui but it is claim by right of his wife. He has no intention to have his wife crowned as the new Ruling Queen of Gondor so that their son can one day inherit both the crown of the northern and southern kingdom.

That's about it. Any comments on any of that?

[cellurdur]

I will a more detailed answer later, but I think there are two points I need to bring up.

1. There is no reason to assume that the Sindar and the Noldor have the same culture or ideas when it came to the succession. As we see they have different languages.

Just, because the Sindar accepted female rulers and the descendants of the female line to inherit does not mean the Noldor did. Any more than saying that the Numenoreans accepted ruling Queens would mean the Rohirrim did.

The facts as we have them are that no female has ever claimed the High Queenship of the Noldor, no female has ever been a Queen of the Noldor and no descendant of Finwe through the female line has ever been king either.

This could be coincidence, but it does indicate that the Noldor may have practiced a form of Salic Succession, where only the males, through the male line could inherit. Perhaps women and males, through the female line could only inherit after there were no more male descendants through the male line.

This would help explain why the kingship jumped from Turgon to Gil-galad.

2. Following from Part 1, Elrond at least favoured to trace his ancestry through Thingol. If Elros did the same then perhaps the Numenorean succession and culture was more closely aligned with the Sindar than Noldor.

Your points and possibly hypothesis are all well researched and perfectly valid. I also am inclined to think that Earendil did not want the High Kingship of the Noldor, feeling closer to the Edain like Elros.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I will a more detailed answer later, but I think there are two points I need to bring up.

1. There is no reason to assume that the Sindar and the Noldor have the same culture or ideas when it came to the succession. As we see they have different languages.

That is certainly a possibility. Although I'm not sure whether such customs would have changed the same way as languages did (if we assume that the changes in the languages of immortals who, on a regular basis, should be able to talk to their great-great-great-great-parents on a regular basis, makes all that much sense).

Another important thing to consider is that Lúthien most certainly embodies the noblest union in the entire history of Arda. Lúthien trumps any Vanya insofar as her status is concerned. If Ingwe is the High-king of all Elves then Lúthien (and Dior) most certainly could make a case to be the rulers/monarchs of Beleriand/Doriath or the high-king/queen of the Sindar.

Melian's special status might very well have changed Lúthien/Dior's status.

The facts as we have them are that no female has ever claimed the High Queenship of the Noldor, no female has ever been a Queen of the Noldor and no descendant of Finwe through the female line has ever been king either.

The published Silmarillion seems to refer to Idril as Turgon's heir. I'm not sure whether this comes from JRRT and I'm right now not able to double-check that. However, I'd not be surprised if that was the case. Was Maeglin's desire for Idril not partially caused by his wish to (possibly) succeed Turgon?

The idea that Beren-Lúthien could have inherited Thingol's crown and co-ruled Doriath under other circumstances doesn't seem far-fetched. If so, then Idril and Turgon (and eventually Eärendil) might have been able to do the same. Especially if Turgon had accepted Tuor as his foster son - which he seems to have done, in a sense, when he married Idril to him.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

That is certainly a possibility. Although I'm not sure whether such customs would have changed the same way as languages did (if we assume that the changes in the languages of immortals who, on a regular basis, should be able to talk to their great-great-great-great-parents on a regular basis, makes all that much sense).

I am not an expert in language, but even the Queen's accent and pronunciation has changed in the last quarter of a century. New generations were being born and I imagine that despite having regular contact with their ancestors they were making slight changes to the language. Feanor certainly was improving on things.

However, when it comes to culture I can see many reasons for there to be a great change. The Noldor were not lower down the hierarchy and power scale in Aman. They lived a life of peace if in a limited space. The Sindar had wide lands to roam in and always knew should they roam too far there were dangers.

Another important thing to consider is that Lúthien most certainly embodies the noblest union in the entire history of Arda. Lúthien trumps any Vanya insofar as her status is concerned. If Ingwe is the High-king of all Elves then Lúthien (and Dior) most certainly could make a case to be the rulers/monarchs of Beleriand/Doriath or the high-king/queen of the Sindar.

I think the Sindar would actually except this. From the way that Legolas speaks about Elrond's sons, I think the Sindar even in the third age would have excepted Elrond as their King. Legolas shows reverence to Aragorn, because of his descent from Luthien. Luthien is the the most noble and the most beloved of the elves.

I have always thought it strange that Arwen is referred to as Queen of Elves and Men? Does it refer just to the colony of Elves that Legolas has in Ithilien or something greater?
[QUOTE]
Melian's special status might very well have changed Lúthien/Dior's status.[/QUOTE}
I wouldn't be surprised if it did as would Luthien's own great deeds.

I think one thing that has to be taken into account is that the Noldor had come to fight a war against Morgoth. The position of High King was also a military one. Tolkien tells us the difference in strength between Elvish men and women was much smaller than ours, but still for other reasons it was predominantly men that led the armies of the Eldar. Perhaps the Noldor decided for this reason to have only men inherit the High King title.

This is similar to what Numenoreans in both Gondor and Arnor do when they return to conflict in ME.

The published Silmarillion seems to refer to Idril as Turgon's heir. I'm not sure whether this comes from JRRT and I'm right now not able to double-check that. However, I'd not be surprised if that was the case. Was Maeglin's desire for Idril not partially caused by his wish to (possibly) succeed Turgon

Does it? I can't recall. I do know that Maeglin thinks to himself Turgon has NO HEIR, which implies that Idril was designated as Turgon's heir. That's one of the reasons why he is keen to go to Gondolin.

The idea that Beren-Lúthien could have inherited Thingol's crown and co-ruled Doriath under other circumstances doesn't seem far-fetched. If so, then Idril and Turgon (and eventually Eärendil) might have been able to do the same. Especially if Turgon had accepted Tuor as his foster son - which he seems to have done, in a sense, when he married Idril to him.

I have no doubt that Luthien alone let alone with Beren could have ruled Doriath, but they had done the impossible and taken a Silmaril from Morgoth. As I said before they also came from a different culture.

Tuor is certainly the leader of the survivors after the Fall of Gondolin. Perhaps you are right, but Tuor did not press his claim, because it would lead to conflict.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Does it? I can't recall. I do know that Maeglin thinks to himself Turgon has NO HEIR, which implies that Idril was designated as Turgon's heir. That's one of the reasons why he is keen to go to Gondolin.

As far as Idril and Gondolin goes, it is possible that Idril could have been Turgon's heir to the throne of Gondolin yet not a potential Heir of Finwë as High King--after all, Gondolin was a new realm, even if its ruler belonged to an established Royal House, and a realm, after all, whose subjects included a significant number of Sindar (I can't remember whether Tolkien says one-third or two-thirds, but that's somewhat insignificant to my argument).

What's more, it's also possible that Turgon hadn't definitively ruled on the subject--even with the precedent of kings dying well-established, it would be consistent with Elven nature not to require a succession plan (a chain of command, yes, but Turgon hardly intended on his realm being overrun). It is entirely possible Maeglin's opinion on the matter was merely one of many.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am not an expert in language, but even the Queen's accent and pronunciation has changed in the last quarter of a century. New generations were being born and I imagine that despite having regular contact with their ancestors they were making slight changes to the language. Feanor certainly was improving on things.

Well, what Feanor did should/would actually be seen by the Elves as a presumptuous messing with tradition. That is, if we take the Elves seriously as an immortal race whose very nature was to be, well, immortal and unchanging.

They would be the ultimate conservatives. A young elf would not learn how things are and are supposed to be sitting at the feet of his/her parents and grandparents, but at the feet of all his paternal and maternal ancestors (especially in Aman and on Eressea).

What right could an elf like Feanor have to mess with the way his elders spoke?

The idea that such beings would make (or allow) such changes leading to the development of Quenya and Sindarin is actually very unlikely. I mean, Elwe lived from Cuiviénen throughout most of the First Age - the idea that his brain/mind went to various stages of Elven tongues from the proto-forms to Sindarin just doesn't make any sense. Nor does it make any sense that there were only two generations between the speakers of the earlier forms (Finwe, Míriel, Ingwe, etc.) and Quenya as Feanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel, etc. brought it back to Middle-earth.

Languages need time to change, and the Elvish languages would realistically needed much more time to change - and, more importantly, many more dead fathers and grandfathers. Many generations of Elves would have to be cut off permanently from their forefathers and the way they spoke.

I mean, our languages only change because old people die and the young can establish new forms and ways to express themselves. If the old would not go away then we would all speak more or less the same language for centuries if we assume we would still speak to each other - but even if we didn't we would be still able to understand our elders because they would have taught us their way of speaking when we were young.

But that's a separate issue.

However, when it comes to culture I can see many reasons for there to be a great change. The Noldor were not lower down the hierarchy and power scale in Aman. They lived a life of peace if in a limited space. The Sindar had wide lands to roam in and always knew should they roam too far there were dangers.

It is, perhaps, also to be questioned where the kingship stuff originally came from.

If we go with 'the eldest rules' kind of thing to explain Ingwe's exalted position then this is fine, and could also shed light on the status of the early elves whose kings (Ingwe back at Cuiviénen included) would be more chieftains rather than kings.

I guess the whole kingship thing is more some sort of the Eldar beginning to emulate the Valar who also have their Elder King. And Elwe certainly would have learned about the Valar from Melian and earlier from Orome and during his visit in Valinor.

What the high-kingship of the Noldor essentially is seems unclear to me. That seems to be more some sort of honorary title, perhaps symbolizing the role Finwe had back in Valinor for them.

But it is quite clear that pretty much nobody of the Exiles pays the high-king any mind (especially the Feanorians), and there is no hint that Fingolfin or Fingon have any right to interfere with, say, Finrod, Maedhros, or Turgon set up their own realms.

In that sense I don't see any good reason why the hell a descendants through the female line (or perhaps even a woman or her husband by right of his wife) could also clain the high-kingship if we are sort of in agreement that this might have been happened also with Noldorin kingdoms like Gondolin.

I mean, Turgon clearly had only one child, so his successor would have been either Maeglin or Idril-Tuor/Eärendil, all of which would have been his kin through the female line.

Unless we make some perhaps not so justified assumption about the nature of the high-kingship (military/supreme leader, etc.) then there is actually no reason to believe why a woman or the male descendant of a woman should inherit it.

Celeborn also has supreme authority over all the domains of Galadriel by the right of his wife despite the fact that he is inferior to her in mind and (spiritual) strength (just as Elwe Singollo clearly was inferior to Melian). But in Tolkien's world the men rule, not the women. The consorts of kings - even Galadriel - restrict themselves to the roles of wife, mother, and counselor, not monarch. In Doriath and Lórien Thingol and Celeborn made the decisions, not their wives. They were asked about their opinion and usually the ruler did follow their counsel (or should better have done so) but neither Galadriel nor Melian actually ruled.

They were 'queens', of course, in a sense, but queen consorts, nor queen regnants. Kings need female consorts, after all. And in that sense Idril most certainly was in a very powerful role in Gondolin as the first woman of the kingdom, filling in for her own lost mother and aunt (at least after Aredhel's death).

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Celeborn also has supreme authority over all the domains of Galadriel by the right of his wife despite the fact that he is inferior to her in mind and (spiritual) strength (just as Elwe Singollo clearly was inferior to Melian). But in Tolkien's world the men rule, not the women. The consorts of kings - even Galadriel - restrict themselves to the roles of wife, mother, and counselor, not monarch. In Doriath and Lórien Thingol and Celeborn made the decisions, not their wives. They were asked about their opinion and usually the ruler did follow their counsel (or should better have done so) but neither Galadriel nor Melian actually ruled.

I'll come back to the other points later, but this view seems egregiously off the mark. To say that "Celeborn has supreme authority" misses the mark by quite a measure. If anything, Galadriel and Celeborn were coeval in rule of their land, and in everything else, Galadriel was the superior, a leader among leaders. She called the White Council, it was her power in conjunction with her Ring that stayed the hands of time in Lothlorien, and it was Galadriel at Dol Guldur who "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed," at the end of the War of the Ring. Galadriel let Celeborn parade around with his shiny army while she did the major work in Middle-earth.